why was the saxophone (and especially the sax solo) so ubiquitous in '80's pop/rock?

was it something in the air? just the cultural zeitgest? falling brass prices boosting sax production? a nationwide oral fixation? the irresistable blend of bleating woodwind over gated snare? why the rapid escalation of lead saxophone in '80's pop and rock music?

because the 80's were a time when people thought they were never going to dance again, so you know, one last dance with a saxophone, even though guilty feet ain't got no rhythm and everyone was guilty in the 80's, so therefore there were guilty feet everywhere

springsteen

think of all the awesome glenn frey songs with sax

The Heat is On
You Belong To the City

http://nerdapproved.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sax-a-cat-lip-grip.jpg

http://www.moviemarket.com/library/photos/265/265029.jpg

b-b-b-because the heart of rock'n'roll was still beating

new book by hit 80s saxman
book by hit 80s saxman

http://www.rumorsinmusic.com/files/2009/07/men_at_work_business_as_usual.jpg

Good question. I think there was a certain amount of 50's nostalgia, a desire for a warmer sound and for simpler dance beats and brass just lent itself to that; rockabilly, ska, neo-jazz and soul, etc...

if i could replace every rap break in a pop song with a saxophone solo, by god i would. except when it's ludacris. and that guy on "shoop."

My theory, pulled out of my ass: After a decade of electric jazz fusion, the world of the sax player seemed not so far from the world of the rock band, and shit happened.

replacing krs-one on 'radio song' with a saxophone = wau

some enterprising young saxophonist should splice out jay-z from "crazy in love," prove their mettle over the break, and post in on youtube.

what was the last big sax solo in a pop song? last one i can remember is Shanice's "I Love Your Smile." Blow, branford, blow!

wait, no, i blame quarterflash.

http://bassic-sax.ca/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/quarterflash.jpg

The dude on the Gerry Rafferty song, surely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgbGaYTkkPU

at least one band today remembers

Ingham and Helliwell posit that it's "Baker Street", in their article "Rock and the Saxophone" in The Cambridge Companion to the Saxophone.

No, I am not making that up.

wait, no, i blame eddie money.

http://bloghamptons.com/media/2/20080620-LCW_01_6258.jpg

uh but doesn't it seem weird to try and trace this back to one song or band instead of maybe thinking there was something going on in the WORLD that necessitated more sax solos? i like m. white's theory

Haha Euler and I mindmeld.

kind of like when newton and that other dude invented calculus at the same time, or darwin and that other guy discovered evolution at the same time ... everyone discovered saxophone at the same time, but WHY?

i was gonna post a clintonsax.jpg but then i realized that was the 90's, not the 80's.

wait, no, i blame phil collins and paul weller and their ill-fated love of motown. and how exactly did they both stumble upon the very same horrible tinny grating horn sound. maybe they hired the same blokes. (thinking of latter-day jam songs that open up with piercing "mod" horns.)

What do saxes signify, sonically? Something like warmth, maybe, or something like sophistication on account of the jazz connection? The latter seems more correct for "Baker Street" or Roxy or "Careless Whisper". Saxes are really common in 50s rock songs (think Little Richard) and it wasn't that sound that the 80s picked up on.

we are talking about a decade where you could look like this and get a hit record. strange days indeed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/totp2/features/wallpaper/images/800/mari_wilson.jpg

sonically, saxes signify sexual relations

sexophones

yeah, i feel like this is one of those "brother, if you have to ask..." deals.

i know tom cruise didn't stand around asking "hey why all the saxophones"

Except now I can imagine him doing that.

has amy winehouse made a song as beautiful as this yet? (sorry, no sax, but carmel was sax-loving.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18w7HJRS-ug

Not buying the the 'Baker Street' argument. I liked the brass in Jam/Style Council and ska at the time.

i was more of a trumpet guy in the 80's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNx1i8Gx3hM

Saxes are really common in 50s rock songs (think Little Richard) and it wasn't that sound that the 80s picked up on.

but it wasn't really a jazz sound either, it's like a new blend of rock/r&b sax with smooth jazz. my theory has something to do with the sax being the easiest brass instrument to pick up and get a passable tone on (and most of these 80s rock sax players had crappy tone imo, really hard and not warm & round like a good jazz saxophonist) and an easy alternative to yet another guitar solo.

oh wait there it TOTALLY a huge sax solo at the end of love is the law! hahaha, forgot about that.

Billy Joel is partly to blame for this too, folks.

phil woods + billy joel majik was one of the first times i remember actually listening closely to a sax solo on a pop record.

<3 that suburbs song. Scott do you know another mpls 80s band, The Wallets? Very VERY saxomophized.

LOL, was looking up Joel's Greatest Hits tracklist to see how many songs had sax solos and found this:

"New York State of Mind" (1976) - 5:58 contains different saxophone solo than Turnstiles version

I mean, what else can you say?

<3 love is the law

They look cool when properly lit in videos.

because new york's alright if you like saxophones

what was the LAST big hit pop/rock song with an '80s-style sax solo?

"How Do You Talk To An Angel"?

never actually seen the song in the context of the show (just that "i thought that vaughn was a robot..." sketch on ben stiller), but wow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5HIarf0CFM

wow, wow, wow.

first time they'd EVER played it

TIMMY CAPPPELLO. The saxophone equivalent in Tina's thighs.

http://www.ultimatetimmyfanz.com/VER5/

Not understanding that preposition.

I blame the popularisation of the portable synthesiser - that tectonic shift at the end of the 1970s entirely changed how to make and perform music. The balanced combination of forward-pressing, angular, rough guitars and rounder, backbeat live drums changed at the start of the 80s, when insistent, unexpected, otherworldly synth lines were lined up with sharp drum machine sounds (or 'gated reverb' processed drums). Both were tense and needed smoothing for pop - hence why basslines became looser, laid back and sometimes meandering (taking influence from disco too), and sax was a more apposite guitar substitute. Add in that the punks secretly loved glam and Bowie and Roxy Music, and as music morphed through new wave and into new romanticism and beyond, the likes of Japan, Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet and Soft Cell revived some sound tropes and the notion of style - a gleaming saxophone satisfying both angles - which fed through into the commercial sound of the mid-80s.

Well that's what I reckon anyway...

Just heard Nicolette Larson's "Lotta Love" and the sax has that sexy reverb with synth-strings underneath. Firmly in the pop-sax canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmkTbgiWqmg

so is "Walk on the Wild Side" ground zero for this? Was wondering if that was some kind of turning point - a rock guy using a saxophone in a jazz way, as a solo instrument, to specifically evoke urbanity and blackness, but not within the context of a horn section or R&B arrangement. Seems like this approach gathered steam throughout the 70s (Steely Dan, Springsteen maybe?) and then reached full ubiquity in the 80s with the saxophone signifying authenticity against a backdrop of plastic new wave smoothness

Rolling Stones - Brown Sugar was '71, Walk on the Wild Side is '72.

I feel like the influence of Junior Walker looms very large in rock saxophone, a lot of the solos discussed in this thread seem to be going for that sound/vibe.

Definitely. Walk on the Wild Side and Deacon Blue are from the jazzier end, but something like Heart of Rock n Roll is straight Jr. Walker

first roxy music album came out before walk on the wild side i think

Yeah, there are sort of a handful of rock sax solo archetypes. There's the Jr. Walker-style "saxophone = you are at a party!" solo, the Walk on the Wild Side-style skulking through the streets at 2am solo, the Baker Street style "oh my god I have to emote so bad right now I can't even put it in words!" solo

I'm not that familiar with his stuff tbh, but isn't Van Morrison an influence? Traffic used sax too.

I don't even know if "Moondance" has sax on it but it sounds like it should have.

yeah actually the train of thought this thread revive got me on was wondering whether the sax solo ever really *left* rock and roll, and if so, for how long and why.

I think an important distinction is the separation/isolation of the saxophone from a larger horn section - not just for the duration of the solo, but on a given track as a whole. cuz a lot of early r&r/R&B are still working in this big band context that also incorporated other horns. But by the time we get to the 80s the saxophone (usually) stands alone, it's a walk-on star/guest spot without any supporting horn players.

that's all true of Jr Walker though, and the 80s also had horn section pop hits

Sussudio seems kinda different than the stuff on this thread tho (even if it does have a similar Motown throwback vibe). but yeah can't argue about Jr.

Yeah, I was just thinking that maybe the absence of sax from 60s rock would be more interesting to probe... so essential to, say, Yakety Yak, but totally dropped even by bands that clearly adored those records, like the Beatles. Obviously, the lead guitar takes over a lot of that role... like, the main riff on "Satisfaction" could have easily been a sax part. Is it just that promising young saxophonists, out of highschool, found jazz way more attractive as a genre in which to play and develop their talents, and then became available later for session work? (Versus, say, orgsnists, who obviously found lots to do as band *members*...) Were high school brass bands maybe not a thing in 50s Britain, cutting the definitive Merseybeat sound off from this instrument? Just kinda tossing ideas around here.

the absence of sax from 60s rock

now that you mention it this does seem to be a thing, doesn't it

Guitars are cheaper and easier to learn.

Folk revival/ Dylan etc.

easier to learn? idk about that

What were the last big rock songs to feature sax before it went into decline? "Yakety Yak" and "Tequila" are both 1958 but there are surely ones after that which I'm just forgetting.

the main riff on "Satisfaction" could have easily been a sax part

I always heard that distortion pedals were originally developed to imitate saxophones, though I don't know if it's true.

What were the last big rock songs to feature sax before it went into decline? "Yakety Yak" and "Tequila" are both 1958 but there are surely ones after that which I'm just forgetting.

Bunch of Dave Clark 5 hits had saxophone. "Lady Madonna," too.

not to keep bringing it back to Jr Walker, but Shotgun was '65 (actually later than I imagined). Was it perceived as kind of a novelty record at the time?

(xp) beat me to it!

Weren't there other 60s Motown hits with solo sax? I'm blanking out but I feel like there were.

Was it perceived as kind of a novelty record at the time?

Hard to say, but Walker had eight more top 40 hits in the 60s after "Shotgun."

Weren't there other 60s Motown hits with solo sax? I'm blanking out but I feel like there were.

idk about Motown but Spector had more than a few feat Steve Douglas during the 60s iirc

Weren't there other 60s Motown hits with solo sax? I'm blanking out but I feel like there were.

― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Wednesday, November 11, 2015 1:30 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"Get Ready," "I Can't Help Myself," "Ain't Too Proud To Beg," likely dozens more.

KIng Curtis had a couple of sax-led hits in '67 with "Memphis Soul Stew" and "Ode to Billie Joe," and a minor hit covering Led Zep's "Whole Lotta Love" in '71 (all on Atco label)

Also a sax solo on The Doors' "Touch Me" (by Curtis Amy)

Were high school brass bands maybe not a thing in 50s Britain, cutting the definitive Merseybeat sound off from this instrument?

I don't think there was ever a state-sponsored musical education program in British schools comparable to that enjoyed by students in the USA. Also, the '50s were a time of severe post-war austerity in the UK, so kids who were interested in learning an instrument had to hope their parents would buy one for them. The schools certainly weren't handing out saxophones to anybody.

Also, the '50s were a time of severe post-war austerity in the UK

Skiffle!

the disparity between the elite who could afford saxophones and the lower classes who had to make do with a washboard became known as the cumberland gap

Coltrane was a big influence on psychedelia but yeah those players came out of folk mostly where sax isn't a thing. by the 70s when psychedelia had run its course / shifting into fusion sax comes back, "Us and Them", second side of Wake of the Flood ("Weather Report Suite" !)

don't forget the early prog guys using sax in the late 60s - vdgg, king crimson, soft machine, beefheart

& Fun House, which is Coltrane through James Brown

also Bowie obv but this is probably covered above

(xp) Before that: Family and Traffic.

This is kind of making me want to do a comprehensive study of per capita saxophone usage in rock history over time.

Seems like something "big data" could accomplish with a database like allmusic.

People forget Clarence Walker's work with the Beatles (unfortunately no recording clips here):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz6ZwIlGfw4

Vast Halo - that kind of economic difference was also on my mind... though I don't think US public schools ever handed out instruments free, FWIW. For an authoritative period source on instrument sales, see Mr. B Natural.

Nah I'm pretty sure there were and even still are public school programs that loan instruments to students, though fewer today. In fact I have heard the decline of such programs in poorer urban schools cited as one of the factors in the rise of hip-hop. Keep in mind that it's a bit harder to track in the US because you're dealing with fifty different states' school systems, to the extent there was even centralization at the state level in some of those states.

Ahhhh yeah loan program makes more sense, duh.

the main riff on "Satisfaction" could have easily been a sax part

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVCW3-GszVU

using a saxophone in a jazz way, as a solo instrument, to specifically evoke urbanity and blackness, but not within the context of a horn section or R&B arrangement

my god that ginger baker air force track is awful

hahaha was just about to post something to that effect. i sort of give a pass to early 70s TV-live performances in front of early blue screens with psychedelic backdrops. but they really don't have a good handle on how to musically 'freak out' in a collaborative fashion. the renaissance faire guy on the drums, who i'm forced to conclude is ginger baker, strikes me as the weak point here. the sax is fine?

I have enormous, long-held hatred of Ginger Baker fwiw, but Cream is sort of tolerable, whereas that is just execrable.

his ham-handed drumming is definitely part of the problem but it's a terrible arrangement too

Graham Bond on sax I notice.