Songs that fool you about where the downbeat is.

Usually at the beginning. I've run across songs like this many times, and yet I can't think of a one right now. Google has come up with "All along the watchtower" and yeah, that's pretty deceptive. I just know there's a whole slew of them.

I never remember where the downbeat is at the beginning of Blue Swede's version of "Hooked On A Feeling": are they singing "Ooh-ga-ooh-ga-ooh-ga-cha-ga" or "Ga-ooh-ga-ooh-ga-cha-ga-ooh"?

Then there's the weird bridge of "She Said She Said."

Pardon the ignorance but what precisely is a downbeat? Could you give me an example? Say in which part of watchtower does the downbeat occurs?

PS: Hendrix's or Dylan's?

The downbeat is the impulse that occurs at the beginning of a bar in measured music.[3] Its name derives from the downward stroke of the director or conductor's baton at the start of each measure. It frequently carries the strongest accent of the rhythmic cycle.

I don't know enough theory to give real examples, though.

Hendrix: opening guitar suggests one beat, but when other instruments come in you find out it's another. If a song's base rhythm goes, say, ONE-two-three-four, ONE-two-three-four, etc., then it's the one. The strong first beat. But you don't have to know that, to know that the rhythm wasn't the way you thought it would be.

first i come to think of now is for some reason Yo La Tengo - Pass the hatchet, I think I'm goodkind

Mmmh I'm not sure if I understood completely what you meant, but I think I get the main idea. I'll think of something when other examples pop up later on thread and I feel enlightened enough.

Television - Marquee Moon. Always gets me!

Pixies - Dig For Fire
(bassline underpinning the drumless intro; drums come in what feels like a half-beat early, leaving the 1 bassless and the bass riff starting on the offbeat)

I like this trick, so I'm a bit surprised I can't think of more examples right now.

Iggy Pop, "the passenger". In fact, Yo La Tengo perform it here:
http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/03/yo-la-tengo-vid.html
And the drummer gets the downbeat wrong! Ira just smiles.

Mclusky - "The World Loves Us and Is Our Bitch"

^^have a feeling most of this thread will be songs with bass/guitar then drums coming in, but i know there are some other kinds of examples

also, is this really a "trick" most of the time (xxp) or is it just dudes not being able to accent their notes well enough?

The La's - There She Goes used to always get me (I'd always think that low note in the riff was the downbeat, so it would sound like the drums came in too early until you got locked into the new rhythm).

Pyramid Song, sorta, in that sounds like a weird time-signature when it's just a slow, syncopated 4/4.

There's a couple songs where I misinterpreted the downbeat for the longest time, and then later on I'd catch it and hear the song completely differently. This mostly happens when drummer omits the kick drum on the downbeat and uses it on a weaker beat--pretty neat trick. Can't think of any specific examples though.

Voxtrot - Mothers Sisters Daughters and Wives

The reverb sound seems like it's on 1, but it turns out it's on 2.

Casiotone for the Painfully Alone - Holly Hobby

I like this one a lot. The drum intro sounds like it's in an odd time signature or something, but it turns out it's just a cool 12/8 rhythm.

Blue Rondo A La Turk. That's cheating a bit, because it's in 9/8. But it always make s me laugh to hear the Nice's version, where they default to cut time.

also, is this really a "trick" most of the time (xxp) or is it just dudes not being able to accent their notes well enough?
It's intentional.

Blue Rondo A La Turk. That's cheating a bit, because it's in 9/8. But it always make s me laugh to hear the Nice's version, where they default to cut time.

(as yet I can only think of another Pixies track: Bone Machine manages to do this from a 4/4 drum intro by turning out to start each bar on the snare. suspect they have more of these too, plus e.g. Alec Eiffel (?) where the guitar riff is an odd number of beats and the drums are 4/4 so it's like the song keeps turning inside out, not that that counts here)

I feel like with all the offbeat dub stabs and synth riffs which are pretty much obligatory for techno there's gotta be a track which deliberately exploits the listener/DJ-confusing potential.

Regarding intentionality or otherwise, here is one of my favourite ILX posts/confessions ever (see last section):
Grifters: C er D?

Ha.

Another example from Jimi Hendrix is "Fire."

I suppose in some cases it's conceivable that the bandmembers were so used to their own song that they didn't notice how a new listener could misread the beat. (Of course, "intentional" is a conundrum in general.)

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.

"30 Seconds Over Tokyo" to thread

Bodysnatchers by Radiohead.
That's a great example

Melwyn - 'we all slow down' from farbrausch 64k demo Life Index (>WinXp)
which is "actually a 19/4 beat, just mixed to normal 4/4 form."

Fresh Moods - lifechange

Dr Faustus does this to me everytime I hear it

Underworld - Jumbo
XTC - The Smartest Monkeys

Wow, that Radiohead, you have no idea the downbeat isn't where you think it is until way into the song.

"Tell Me Something Good" most def.

With "Bodysnatchers", are you guys counting each snare as an "&" in a slow-to-moderate 4/4? That kind of works for me.

uhm, not with you on that one. i hear each snare on 2 and 4 as every other rock song, although the intro still puts you off a bit at first

^yep

I mean, your way is the normal way of counting it. But if you look at it the other way, it accounts for the riff and the phrasing in the vocal melody. For the sake of argument, you know.

This is my favorite example in the whole world.

The big chords are easily heard as being on "1" and "3", but they're really on the "and of 2" and "and of 4" (in a few spots, a four-on-the-floor kick/bass pattern appears, to confirm this)

I suppose if you listen regularly to Zouk, you're more likely to expect accents on the offbeats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWE51n6GDcM

Listened again (radiohead)and this time there was no shift, except maybe at the beginning. I guess I got off-track the first time. Huh. Maybe I'll get to the bottom of it later, I gotta go make dinner.

Oops, not "The Smartest Monkeys" -- the XTC song I had in mind was (the vastly superior) "Wake Up"

Actually, another radiohead example would be "Videotape", from the same album. The plodding piano chords from the entire song turn out to be on the off-beat by the end.

I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I09xjQgMAI

311 thought they were so fucking clever about this that they named their song "Offbeat Bare Ass"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G9-pHd9CyQ

I Don't Remember - Peter Gabriel

Certainly the live version does this, can't remember if the studio version does.

Timbaland, "Give It To Me"

daftendirekt always throws me

Pete Townshend - "Keep on Working" vs. The Kinks - "Set Me Free" - Both songs begin with the same guitar riff, but the downbeats come in at different places so that one riff is actually a kind of inside out version of the other. I knew the Townshend song first, so the Kinks song throws me every time.

The beginning of "Come on Down to My Boat" by Every Mother's Son.

Grateful Dead-the Eleven

Basement Jaxx - Supersonic

downbeat doesn't drop until 1:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

'rock your world' has always been weird to me, i want to hear the bass line starting on the other side of the phrase (ie on the 3) even though i know that's not right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI

Oh goodness, the chorus of "Diamond Dogs" switches the kick to an offbeat and it throws everything off in a strange way.

I also used to hear the intro to "Girl U Want" as having the first beat on the third note of the opening riff (as if the *first* note was on 4). When the drums came in it would confound.

Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcKZ2U8FHs&feature=player_embedded

The into to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" gets me every time. Intellectually I know they're echoing the syncopation of the "I can't hide" part, but that's not how I hear it.

The Ludacris thing is a very stupid argument because all you need to do to get the answer is listen to the entire song instead of just the chorus

everything theo parrish has ever made

The Ludacris thing, I'm in the third group camp. Sounds like a latin jazz rhythm (muntuno?)

Genesis - "Keep It Dark."

The guitar-only intro sounds like a loping waltz. Then the drums and keys come in, and you realize you've been listening to the off-beats of a 6/4 groove.

The Ludacris thing...yes, it's a weird beat that feels very ungrounded, and the harmonic movement of the horns make you want to feel a downbeat on the & of 1, instead of on 1.

But OF COURSE the drums are in 'half time', and of course the snare is playing backbeats.

yeah i found it easy to hear 2 or 3 possible downbeats at first, but once i locked in on that same understanding -- snare playing backbeats -- it suddenly became impossible for me to hear it any other way.

So crazy to me that I would have definitely lined up the horn phrase with the second note landing on the downbeat, like a square, but Timbaland made a CHOICE.

Had to look it up, Tim used a sample (err... interpolation) of the opening horns & rhythm (tumbai/muntuno) of this Senegal Africando song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiOMHAi4Bto

Good call on Keep it Dark. Glorious Om Riff by Steve Village is syncopated in a similar vein, as is Disko by Komeda.

Woo-Hah by Busta Rhymes? Definitely with Space by Galt McDermott, which provides the sample, it's hard to follow the downbeat all the way through the song.

Heartbeat by Chris & Cosey, just because the 808 clap isn't "supposed to be" on the downbeat.

I’ve never able to follow the meter of this song (maybe that’s just my own failing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXU4P6j3TNY

I didn't follow the Ludacris debate but, listening now, idk why you wouldn't just hear the snare as the backbeat.

the ariana song is a mid-tempo 4/4 with the fingersnaps on 3.

what makes "get well soon" hard to follow is it's heavily syncopated and often there isn't anything on the 1

Ride of the Valkyries. I just discovered the downbeat is not where I always thought it was, and I'm guessing most other people mis-hear it as well. I was watching a Youtube video, and the conductor looked out of time until I realized....whoa. My mind is kind of blown.

I'm very curious about this, because I can't imagine it anywhere else?

Trying to unhear it the way I do and am pondering the string stabs during the main riff?

Here are two ways to hear Ride of the Valkyries, in each the downbeat is capitalized.

1 2 3 1 2 3
1) DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa DUT dadut daaaaa daaaaa etc.

1 2 3 1 2
2) dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa dut dadut DAAAAA daaaaa etc.

The first one is how Wagner wrote it. The second is the way I've always heard it.

I'm interested in this phenomenon, especially when you're approaching a dance rig and the first round you hear are the high hats, but because you perceive them out of time they take on an almost ska-like quality 'mm-TSSS-UH mm-TSSS-UH' until you get closer and hear the kick drum and the whole beat switches into place. Any dance producers played on this before?

"Lost In Music" always gives me a little double take, which is part of the pleasure imo - it's like 'the pocket' is so deep in this song, the pocket has a pocket of its own

dl I have "played" on this many times by accidentally lining the records up on the off-beat ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSroXhI2uZs

Ahhh, that makes sense re: Valkyries. I've always heard the 1st way but the 2nd way makes sense.

Dog latin - same.

I don't really get the Sister Sledge thing because the beat is so strong. But I have a hard time hearing the intro to Rufus & Chaka 'Tell Me Something Good' correctly, with the wah wah keys on the downbeat and the bass on the upbeat.

catches me off guard every time it finally "snaps into place" on this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxZvikbX7RA

I must admit, when I listen to Valkyries, I only hear it Wagner's way-- the chords are also changing on the downbeat

That said, had you asked me to sit down at the piano and play it, prior to "just now", when I rewatched/relistened, I would've absolutely weighted it (and had the chords change) as you've described in your 2nd example, B'wana Beast. Interesting

Also wild to hear how John Williams's whole "heroic" mode contains all these orchestral devices

"No Reply At All" doesn't belong on this thread but having seen "Keep It Dark" mentioned here I relistened to both it the former and, well, the album Abacab slaps

*both it and the former

I think Phil Collins must've been fond of this downbeat trick, because the verses in "Dance on a Volcano" do a similar thing.

I have two of these:

Amazing Journey by The Who - The opening always fools me that the downbeat is on the first chord of each pair, when in fact it is the second chord (one and a half beats later). Daltrey also starts singing on the downbeat, but it doesn't become clear to me until the drums come in. Maybe the backwards feedback over the intro is also misleading.

Mechanical World by Spirit - I only figured out tonight that the downbeat in the verses is on the third hi-hat hit, not the first, which was misleading me completely. The whole song is in straight 4/4 if you count it properly!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Theo's "Bubbles", too

When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk

re: "Lost in Music" - great example!
also:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4

maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.

Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?

re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ

i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?

oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!

Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful

Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM

almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording

Yes! Considered that

The intro to SOS feels like it begins on the 2, but if you're going to count straight fours until the vocal comes in right after the 1, then it starts on the 3! Or you could say that the intro drops a beat before the vocal comes in.

There is a great Switched on Pop episode about Charlie Puth's "Boy" that talks about its "downbeat deception." Listen to the first 10 minutes of this:

https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/87-the-pure-pop-of-charlie-puth-carly-rae-ft-hanif-abdurraqib

Here's the song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILJvqrAQ_w

That's a good one, although the backbeat coming in helpfully lines it up.

Just relistened to that Switched on Pop and if you go to minute 16 they also play a bunch of examples of what they dub downbeat deception:

Ismael Miranda – Recordando
The Beatles – She’s a Woman
Sharon Jones & The Dap Kings – Nobody’s Baby
The Cars – Since You’re Gone
Ludwig van Beethoven – Symphony No 5 in C Minor, I

Is there a thread for rap songs with raps on the off-beat?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_QcvPwa-l0

Jane Weaver - Electric Mountain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lcFq7Rtx0M

I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.

(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)