Past Critics' Darlings Re-evaluated as Duds?

Aside from the Doors, have there been artists that were once critics' darlings but no longer so?

pink floyd? to a much lesser extent obv

P.M. Dawn.

Terrence Trent D'Arby

Arrested Development
Jackson Browne
Linda Rondstadt

I gather that at the time a lot of jazz aficionados considered Dave Brubeck to be the most exciting jazz innovator of his era, and though I don't know that many wound label him "dud," I think it's fair to say he probably would make most people's lists of the two dozen most interesting musicians of the era.

Rod Stewart kinda. Most people still like Every Picture Tells a Story and his stuff the The Faces just fine, but when you go back and realize just how ecstatic some rock critics were over EPTAS, it seems pretty out of whack with his actual accomplishments.

Also not quite dud, but no longer so beloved: Van Morrison, who was generally written about as the most important singer of his generation by rock critics in the 70s. I don't think he's nearly so treasured these days.

And critical re-revaluation is just wrong about D'Arby - I still think that first album is dynamite.

D'Arby's debut delivers, doubtless.

(UK+ only) Tom Robinson Band.

Also, though i know he/ they are revered here, Kid Creole.

maybe tracy chapman?

And regarding Brubeck, that should read "would *not* make most people's list of the two dozen most interesting musicians of the era." I think opinion has shifted to such a degree that a lot of people (such as Gary Giddens as I recall) tend to give credit Paul Desmond above Brubeck.

And yeah, Chapman's a pretty good example. Does anyone still like Rickie Lee Jones much?

Another not quite dud, but no longer so highly ranked case: Graham Parker. He actually won Pazz & Jop in '79, pretty shocking even when you take into account that London Calling was a 1980 release for P&J consideration.

does edie brickell fit this too? seems like tons of late 80s/early 90s stuff got this treatment

And not so much an artist, but an album: Artists United Against Apartheid, which people at the time seemed to seriously argue was an excellent/important album on musical terms, not just an instance of admirable good intentions.

I suspect part of the problem in the late 80s/early 90s was that a lot of critics were trying not to deal with gangster rap, resulting in the elevation of the likes of Arrested Development and PM Dawn. (And I say this as someone who likes the first Arrested Development album just fine, and thinks it's probably now slightly underrated.)

Edie was clocked as fairly MOR and a retread almost from the start (critically, anyway; popularly she and Chapman, others - Tanita Tikaram, anybody? - woke a lot of industry folks up to the AOR female audience).

definitely PM Dawn. listened to the 2nd album recently for the first time since reviewing it ecstatically in the early 90s...felt relieved when my son demanded it be taken off.

Hahah, it's very much an of-its-time release, for sure. Certainly liked it quite a lot on original release but I don't think I've gone back to it since I drew up my 136 list for the nineties, like a lot of stuff on there.

some misguided critic compared PM Dawn to Brian Wilson...wait that was me...

re-evaluating a critical rave as a dud is one thing (see PM Dawn) but critical faves whose subsequent careers turn dudly maybe should be a different category. classic Van Morrison and yeah even Rod Stewart can still sound pretty great if you don't think about all the half-assed records they've done since (also see Elvis Costello).

man are there actually people who hear brubeck and think it's anything other than awesome? feel sorry for sad wretches if so tbh

I would also add Tori Amos, Juliana Hatfield and the Lemonheads.

how about some of the critical faves of the early 2000s? like the strokes or eminem? I thought the claims made for Eminem were insane, way over the top...has he been reclassified?

Urban Dance Squad and The Pharcyde tanked too hard to make sense here, but the superlatives around their debut records were off the charts. Deee-Lite, same story.

I don't think the claims being made for eminem's flow at his peak were really exaggerated much, dude was completely on fire for a minute there

Where have these "re-evaluations" been made? I'm mostly unconvinced.

like the strokes

Gotta say the Strokes managed a neat trick by going from hot young hyped band to the 'individual members make solo burnout albums in LA' phase without actually have the arena tour part in the middle.

My take on Eminem: "was interpreted and sold as a rebel by the media, but was in fact a whining adult child." Everyone bought into his bullshit. Dude you mean you weren't rich growing up? Rough rugged and raw.

The Doors have not been unilaterally re-eval'd as duds, to the point above; concept is mostly a way of formalizing "Bands that are supposedly crucial but are in fact totally lame because I say so"

Except for P.M. Dawn.

Where have these "re-evaluations" been made? I'm mostly unconvinced.

What I meant is that these artists are no longer looked favorably as there were before.

My take on Eminem: "was interpreted and sold as a rebel by the media, but was in fact a whining adult child." Everyone bought into his bullshit. Dude you mean you weren't rich growing up? Rough rugged and raw.

none of this has jack shit to do with how good his flow is - is there anybody who says it wasn't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ZsZnpuofk

I don't get the "former critical faves who later sucked" inclusions; because, basically, which critical faves don't, eventually? You'd have to go with ones where the concensus has changed, not about their later work (i.e., Eminem, Costello, whoever), but about the albums originally considered great. So yeah, Arrested Development probably fit that bill. I'm not sure anybody else here really does, though. (It's not like Lemonheads and Urban Dance Squad exactly tore up the critics polls in the first place.) (Well, maybe in Amsterdam, big whoop.)

I don't think the claims being made for eminem's flow at his peak were really exaggerated much, dude was completely on fire for a minute there

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Sunday, December 6, 2009

OTM and that minute was the guest verse on "Forgot About Dre" though the first two rekds are both grebt.

also grebt: TTD's Symphony or Damn, PM Dawn The Bliss Album, the production on Tracy Chapman s/t

http://11.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_krf3io3tcg1qzcbzeo1_500.gif

eminem was on fire for awhile in 1999-2000 no question but there was one talking-heads fest on VHI where all the big magazine guys were trying to outdo each other w/superlatives. eminem was not just a genius and a pioneer but a TOWERING FIGURE IN AMERICAN CULTURE like a cross between elvis presley, thomas edison and paul bunyan. more an indictment of critics than eminem but so is this thread, in a way.

Where have these "re-evaluations" been made? I'm mostly unconvinced.

Metzger and Bangs spent a lot of time dissing Browne, and since they're both read more than Dave Marsh, their distaste is all that's remembered. Arrested Development backlash started with Xgau's pazz & job write up that year, since he really disliked that album, and of course intensified when Arrested Development's next releases turned out to be so dull. Gary Giddens has a piece on Brubeck in one his anthologies. The piece is actually somewhat defensive of Brubeck, in the face of an implied critical turnabout on Brubeck, but even Giddens bases his defense more on Paul Desmond's contributions to the Brubeck recordings than on Brubeck himself.

Pazz & Jop 88-08
# 1988 - Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
# 1989 - De La Soul - 3 Feet High and Rising
# 1990 - Neil Young - Ragged Glory
# 1991 - Nirvana - Nevermind
# 1992 - Arrested Development - 3 Years, 5 Months & 2 Days in the Life Of...
# 1993 - Liz Phair - Exile in Guyville
# 1994 - Hole - Live Through This
# 1995 - PJ Harvey - To Bring You My Love
# 1996 - Beck - Odelay
# 1997 - Bob Dylan - Time Out of Mind
# 1998 - Lucinda Williams - Car Wheels on a Gravel Road
# 1999 - Moby - Play
# 2000 - OutKast - Stankonia
# 2001 - Bob Dylan - Love and Theft
# 2002 - Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
# 2003 - OutKast - Speakerboxxx/The Love Below
# 2004 - Kanye West - The College Dropout
# 2005 - Kanye West - Late Registration
# 2006 - Bob Dylan - Modern Times
# 2007 - LCD Soundsystem - Sound of Silver
# 2008 - TV on the Radio - Dear Science

"Flow" is a pretty subjective idea. I mean he has two tracks, always, the nasally track and the booming track, the guy has talent and all but his material is somehow fading away year after year as his persona becomes harder to remember. Whereas, say, ODB's best work is still as devastating as the day he recorded it.

none of this has jack shit to do with how good his flow is - is there anybody who says it wasn't?

bingo

also has jack shit to do with the inspired madness of his lyrics pre-8 mile

And the thing about the Rod Stewart and Van Morrison examples has less to do with their best recordings now being considered duds, and more with even their best recordings no longer being consider Major Artistic Statements. I've read various rock critics going nuts for Van Morrison. Marcus called him the white Otis Redding. I don't think many people, even those who quite like him (and I love some of his stuff with Them) would consider him the equal of Otis Redding nowadays. But I could be wrong.

My take on Eminem: "was interpreted and sold as a rebel by the media, but was in fact a whining adult child." Everyone bought into his bullshit. Dude you mean you weren't rich growing up? Rough rugged and raw.

― cee-oh-tee-tee, Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:18 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

j0hn beat me to it, but horseshit. was "interpreted and sold" as a talented rapper who was funny as hell, but was in fact a talented rapper. plus funny as hell.

eminem was on fire for awhile in 1999-2000 no question but there was one talking-heads fest on VHI where all the big magazine guys were trying to outdo each other w/superlatives. eminem was not just a genius and a pioneer but a TOWERING FIGURE IN AMERICAN CULTURE like a cross between elvis presley, thomas edison and paul bunyan. more an indictment of critics than eminem but so is this thread, in a way.

― chief rocker frankie crocker (m coleman), Sunday, December 6, 2009

tbf white people definitely found eminem more threatening than arrested development

For me Eminem's humor/insight was of its time. Like the show Friends. I don't know, not out to change minds on this.

0t+ I think you're bringing a lot of weird criteria & baggage to the table - most heads I'd guess would say "the great Eminem records are still great" which is all I'm really talking about, I think you're up on some popcult image/legacy stuff which if that's yr trip power to you and all but I don't really give a shit about that stuff, I"m kinda New Criticism about records

like "nobody cares about his records now" - so fucking what? I am surprised to hear that whether others care is even interesting to you - how do the records sound & how's his flow are the two criteria of any abiding aesthetic interest & again I'd guess most heads would say "you can't fuck w/Em's flow at his peak" - it was well respected by most

I would have thought Van was still up there - for 'Astral Weeks' anyway. (X post)

Massive Attack/Tricky/Portishead - the latter especially - have probably gone down a notch or two without being dumped out of the canon completely: Stereo MCs on the other hand.......

So basically, the only answer to the thread question so far is Arrested Development?

Blue Oyster Cult (my favorite band who are not Alice Cooper) were critically celebrated in their day for their ironic wit and rock musculature & caetera. it is true that they are still celebrated by many people for these reasons, perhaps many of the same people, but they seem to linger in the critical & popular imagination only as an obscure and rather risible cult act.

same is true of Alice, legacy-wise, but i dunno that he was ever so celebrated in the 1st place.

tbf, Van Morrison, Rod Stewart, Graham Parker, & Eminem aren't so much cases of darling-to-dud syndrome (sorry for breaking the thread) as just various degrees of devaluation. Looking at the Pazz & Jop list, Beck probably fits that pattern as well - where once critics thought he might be important - great, a genius, the new Dylan, etc - most would settle with "fairly talented songwriter/performer." Eminem was and is really interesting - but would anybody now consider him possibly the greatest hip hop artist of all time - because that's how some people talked about him at the turn of the century. Where this gets interesting is wondering whether critics were just wrong, or whether time, history, and performers subsequent output has simply changed the way we hear their old records.

like "nobody cares about his records now" - so fucking what? I am surprised to hear that whether others care is even interesting to you - how do the records sound & how's his flow are the two criteria of any abiding aesthetic interest & again I'd guess most heads would say "you can't fuck w/Em's flow at his peak" - it was well respected by most

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:34 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

My take on Eminem: "was interpreted and sold as a rebel by the media, but was in fact a whining adult child." Everyone bought into his bullshit. Dude you mean you weren't rich growing up? Rough rugged and raw.

― cee-oh-tee-tee, Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:18 PM

the more i think about this the more it smells

may be hard to believe in our enlightened age, but the rumors back in the late 90s that Dre was working with "a WHITE guy" were electric.

and then the guy showed up, and he brought it, and his flow was like nothing you'd heard before and he was sharp as fuck and yes, funny as hell, and completely "authentic" - the persona he inhabited was as "white" as he was, without a trace of the bullshit blackface pose that even the most "conscious" of white MCs had all pulled up 'til then. He wasn't "rough" or "rugged" or "raw." He was a scrawny white kid who took pills and fucked up in school and in life and got picked on and fought dirty because he'd never win if he fought fair.

And let's be clear: I like Remedy as much as the next guy but other than Em, no white MC has come up yet who can play the game straight up.

Eminem was and is really interesting - but would anybody now consider him possibly the greatest hip hop artist of all time - because that's how some people talked about him at the turn of the century. Where this gets interesting is wondering whether critics were just wrong, or whether time, history, and performers subsequent output has simply changed the way we hear their old records.

― MumblestheRevelator, Sunday, December 6, 2009 5:40 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Meltzer and Bangs were never the mainstream of rock criticism; how they fit into this is beyond me. And I'm not sure Otis Redding has ever been a bigger critical icon than Van Morrison. I've never liked Astral Weeks all that much myself, but I haven't noticed an outpouring a critics over the years who suddenly decided that it (or, say Every Picture Tells A Story) were actually mediocre records. (And it's not like critics write about Otis very much anymore, either.)

Obviously there are onetime critical faves like Joy Of Cooking or Jackson Browne or Graham Parker or the Iron City Houserockers or PM Dawn who aren't a major part of the current critical discussion, but even in those cases I don't think there's been a huge movement of critics deciding that say Squeezing Out Sparks was a bad album; it's more like the conversation just winds up shifting elsewhere.

Blue Oyster Cult only had one big record with critics -- Agents Of Fortune. And again, I haven't noticed critics changing their mind about it. If anything, their earlier albums (which had their small critic cult at the time, that's it) have gained cred over the years.

"man are there actually people who hear brubeck and think it's anything other than awesome?"

me. but i don't want to hate on brubeck anymore on ilm. my moratorium on hating now extends to: dave brubeck, nina simone, and the smashing pumpkins. (the last in honor of ned.)

xp, oh yeah.

i mean, i think what i said is still true of murray's character though. stylish malaise, boredom, coming from this vantage of luxury, ease, and sloth -- that's what i remember from that movie and what i hear in the strokes.

glad you are digging strange days brad!

that's like the core of my doors fandom

I feel like people skip right from the first album to LA Woman and I think SD and Waiting for the Sun and to a slightly lesser extent Morrison Hotel is where it's at

same, great stuff on those

fuckin' PEACE FROG I mean

casablancas just is really great at writing melodies and while the band's influences are super obvious (the cars, television, fripp's lead playing on "heroes", etc.) they really managed to be their own thing. way way better than most of their 'garage rock revival' peers, like the hives, the vines, the white stripes, those first few arctic monkeys albums? bleh

wtf the White Stripes completely wipe the floor with all those other poseurs

all those other bands are irredeemably terrible

(to be fair, I hated them back then as well, this is not revisionism)

eh i can understand someone feeling that way but i don't really care at all for the white stripes' blues rock style while i love the new wave of the strokes. not really that similar when it comes down to it beyond a vague image thing

I always read Casablancas as thinking he and his band are above/better than what they're doing (indeed, above/better than "being a rock band") and all I can think is, No you're fucking not. You'd need to be about 100 times better to justify the amount of attitude you're giving off.

man I love the doors. I get why they were a punchline for so long, but in the right circumstances...

justin timberlake

futuresex/lovesounds would really be the classic it was briefly considered if you cut a few tracks

the 20/20 experience was like the critical version of a new jersey

people see that attitude as connected to privilege now, probably rightly too, so it goes.

I mean, that was the main narrative back then: “These are bored rich kids,” etc.

the fifth strokes album is the best one

― ufo, Tuesday, May 18, 2021 2:30 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:32 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

that's a critical dud that's secretly a classic though

― ufo, Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:41 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i had to look this up bc i didnt remember which in the discography this one was, but this is otm

(xp which to me was an asset of the lyrics and presentation—that louche boarding school vibe)

I think I like that 4th one. Not best (still the first two for me), but of the rest it felt the most solid

angles

possible I’m misremembering

Post–First Impressions Strokes is S-canon for me.

re MMJ - this is fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnAzDRaOD-k

first impressions is 2/3 good-to-great, just much longer than it should have been
angles is a weird messy album, their songs are the least focused they've ever been, you can definitely hear the struggle of julian not writing everything anymore, and their attempts at using synths & drum machines are pretty awkward. still, some pretty high highs
comedown machine is perfect, somehow. like, my first reaction to "one way trigger" was "what are they doing lol" but the hooks are brilliant and feel like they've been with me my whole life
the new abnormal is alright, kind of just a better version of angles, similarly unfocused and some awkward synths but when it works it really works. rym is convinced this was a "return to form" but comedown machine was their worst which i don't get at all

“happy ending” is my favorite latter day strokes cut

comedown machine isn’t perfect, but there are jams on it. definitely has the best strokes cover art tho

i'm still listening to the doors. "touch me" is great fuck off

not only do i gotta deal with liking the doors, i gotta deal with really liking the soft parade

Don't see the problem there myself.

The Doors were the first classic rock band I heard beyond The Beatles and my opinion of them has remained pretty constant over the last 20 years or so - they've never been one of my absolute favourites but I've never really gone off them either. It probably helps that there wasn't ever a point where I took Morrison seriously as a poet or whatever, he was always just a guy with a cool voice.

Listened to some of the albums again yesterday, I'd definitely say that the s/t and Morrison Hotel are the two best. The first album just has such a great sound.

Can’t believe no one has mentioned the Doors yet

the first side of morrison hotel is the freakin' best

Whatever you think of them they’re a bad fit for this thread

I think The Strokes were considered to have really bottomed out somewhere around ten years back, leading to pieces like this being accepted as fact.

https://www.gq.com/story/the-strokes-retrospective/amp

Since then a really decent new album, plus the influence of Lizzy Goldman’s book, some massive gigs (their biggest ever show was a coupla years back in Rio) and people seem to have come back round to them in a big way.

The Strokes's good period (their first two albums and nothing else) had such a narrowly defined sonic aesthetic that any subsequent deviation from the formula felt to my ears like a betrayal. Off the basis of ufo's "the fifth Strokes album is the best one" comment above I cruised through albums three-thru-six this morning and was mostly appalled. Some good reading though:

https://www.stereogum.com/1850735/first-impressions-of-earth-turns-10/reviews/the-anniversary/

^ this is a bizarrely long and hilarious thing

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/gordon-raphael-producing-strokes

^ I am surprised that Gordon Raphael didn't become a super-producer off the back of how spectacular those first two Strokes albums sound

xp well they made two mediocreish albums with a hiatus in between (Angles was their Big Comeback Album that did not live up to expectations), and then Comedown Machine was also pretty badly received critically (despite actually being excellent imo) and the band didn't even seem to care about it, making no attempt to promote it or anything. overall they'd very much lost the cool image they had long ago. i can very much understand that narrative & why most people didn't give Comedown Machine time, as really the only album that could have made people happy is one that sounded exactly like their first two. i have seen a 'return to form' narrative around The New Abnormal in places and i don't really get that, it's alright but not on the same level as their best work at all.

but idk as i've said i think even their weaker albums have some worthwhile stuff & Julian's solo work has been generally way better than people give it credit for too (the first voidz album is a total mess but also kinda brilliant)

i think the production on the first two is very good but also sometimes i feel frustrated by how small it can sound. mostly i just wish the drums had a bit more punch in places? of course then when they went for a more polished radio-ready sound with FIoE it noticeably weird drum sound that's one of the biggest problems with it as a record

Wow, that Gordon Raphael article is fantastic. Interesting that they were doing live/full-band takes (with a lot of bleed Studio One style), but also playing to a click at the same time.

It's so interesting, right? I must admit, the first two Strokes albums contain "my favourite drum sound" and "my favourite guitar sound" and "my favourite vocal sound" and reading the entire process laid out in such specific detail was wonderful. A Neumann on a Peavey amp! I love it

i really adore that near-square-wave guitar tone that's all over room on fire. also think room on fire just sounds slightly better than is this it production-wise, i think it's the drums?

I forgot to listen to the Doors last night I listened to the first two bathory albums instead

It's so interesting, right? I must admit, the first two Strokes albums contain "my favourite drum sound" and "my favourite guitar sound" and "my favourite vocal sound" and reading the entire process laid out in such specific detail was wonderful. A Neumann on a Peavey amp! I love it

lol zing retained a shitpost draft of mine there, sorry

I’m really glad to hear someone else seriously in love with that sound on the first two albums.

That Gordon Raphael piece is fascinating. I never knew the dude’s backstory.

The only weird aspect is how he says the Strokes were super knowledgeable and specific in their feedback when he produced the EP (”You know, 'Can you brighten the hi-hat in a mix with three mics, and not make the snare pop out?' Things like that”); but when it came to recording the album:

They couldn't tell me that they wanted the voice brighter and it wasn't making them happy. They would just have big frowns on their faces and I would start turning the knobs on every piece of equipment until the frowns began turning into smiles.

idk i think it just must have been casablancas (bc by all accounts he's the one who dictated everything about those albums) sometimes had a really specific vision and sometimes didn't

I’m really glad to hear someone else seriously in love with that sound on the first two albums.

Yeah, I mean, both albums are all-time in my books. Every aspect of the production/composition/performance is angling toward something I'd vaguely describe as "economy" and "density". It reminds me most of Ramones. My reading on The Strokes is that (unlike Ramones) they didn't acknowledge that "the formula" was intrinsic to "why the band works", and so they deviated, experimented, branched out, and lost the plot. Even latter day Strokes songs that seek to return to the formula of those first couple albums are missing that magical Raphael/Casablancas vocal sound, which is really just amazing and unduplicated by any other artist or even the same band.

Cosign “comedown machine” being the best Strokes album. I don’t quite get how they became such a huge band tbh, they’re fine but far from being a “classic” and the pass of time has confirmed it.

Wouldn’t call them duds either.

I’d say The Libertines qualify for this thread.

have to admit, i did not expect Shriekback to be mentioned in that article.
and yes, that was an amazing read, really enjoyed it.
for all the success of the album it doesn't appear that Gordon totally cashed in on it.
his discogs page is anything but full of big names, even post Strokes.

economy, density, geometry, efficiency, yeah totally

My reading on The Strokes is that (unlike Ramones) they didn't acknowledge that "the formula" was intrinsic to "why the band works", and so they deviated, experimented, branched out, and lost the plot.

yeah this is true to some extent but not entirely. like first impressions of earth would still have been a step down from the first two even if it was produced the exact same as the first two, though obviously that would have been an improvement for it. the only real deviation from the songwriting formula is "ask me anything", otherwise it's just some strokes songs that are as great as the first two albums songwriting-wise and some that aren't anywhere near as good.

from everything they've said it sounded like moving away from the formula was pretty much necessary for them to continue as a band, for better or worse. julian seemed burnt out with the formula of the first two by fioe and the others were chafing under him dictating everything. iirc the making of angles was julian insisting the others make figure out how to make music without him because their previous arrangement was no longer working but it sounded like it was exactly as tortured of a process as the messy results suggested. from the sound of comedown machine you can tell they really figured out how to exist as a band again properly on that album and you can hear some of their strengths from the first two albums again, even if it's in a pretty different form. there's great interplay between the guitars & julian's vocal melodies are still incredibly hooky, it's just in service of this smoother new wave sound that's heavy on the interlocking palm-muted guitars and julian's falsetto and it works so well. i get why people who just want the first two albums again aren't satisfied though but i'm glad they managed to find something else that worked for them

comedown machine is

oh whoops