Graffiti - good thing or bad thing ?

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from where i sit i can see tagz/dubz whateva on the walls - Last night a local rapper tied to convince me that graffiti was an essential part of livin' tha life - one of the 5 elements of hip-hop - is it - in the UK ? - are they reclaiming public space or is it just egotrippin' - and is that bad ?

i APPRECIATE THE ARTKITEXTURE OF SOME OF IT BUT Im against it ( gr will always let you down in the end ) coz our chippy looks shit now.

― KING TUT, TUT, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My boring answer is big, creative grafitti - classic

Ugly, piss-against-trees tagging (and etching into bus windows) - dud

― Nick, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

This 4 elements of hip-hop thing has always seemed a bit dicey to me - it's part of what I was getting at when I asked how much should we engage with the culture (before that thread turned into the ILM Somme). Isn't one of them meant to be breakdancing? I mean come on, you're not telling me that Prince Be or Big Punisher were shit-hot breakdancers?

Anyway I've not got much problem with it but most of the people who do it seem to be awful. If you're sitting in a train carriage and there's "KAGZ" on every window and the tag looks different every time then it's hard to feel 'respect'. The graffiti on the subways were I live is mostly verbal anyway: "LJ - IF I WAS EVIL? YOU'D BE DEAD." in huge big red dripping letters freaked me last night on my way to the shops, clearly its intention.

― Tom, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Big Punisher as a breakdancer - that one had me laughing out loud.

I acknowledge that graffiti can be art, but 99 % of what I see is just squiggles, today's equivalent to "zombie wuz here" or "fuck the world" or "for hot sex call mike at 555-5555" . They're real fucking eyesores. I'm sure there's any number of depraved-on-account-of-deprived stick-it-to-the-man justifications/rationalizations for that stuff, but I'll bet most graffiti you see is made by middle-class brats by now. Not that tags by anyone else are more fun to look at.

― Patrick, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

.. only time big pun beatboxed was when a burger got stuck

― marked man, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Graffiti is a dud because it's the willfull destruction of someone else's property. I don't care how artistic it is - get a giant canvas and spray it on there and exhibit it, in that case. I will admit some of it is very beautiful - you can go to places in Queens and the Bronx and see gorgeous stuff, memorializing people or some such, in the brick walls facing parks and stuff. If the people who own that building are all for it and allow it, it's okay but most of the times, it's not something that's been exactly commissioned (see: subway graffiti). They can use any excuse that they want, but the bottom line is this: how would they like it if I came and did it on their house? Would they admire the artwork and complexities and societal implications of it, or would they be right fucked off?

Don't even get me started on tagging, which is the most piss useless thing in the universe. We are not dogs marking our territory, we are human beings. If you HAVE to whip out a can of spray paint and deface property, then at least make it something worth looking at.

― Ally, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I would have to agree that destroying other people's property is a bad thing. However, legal Graffiti artwork can be downright beautiful. I've definitely stared at it's psycho-dellic nature and wondered if it is influenced by drugs at all or just a constant obsession with complex doodling. (formerly neuro of the apparantly not working "antisocial.com" address... it was a real address, as people here have written to me before and received responses).

I must admit that while much graffiti is pleasing to the eye, I usually can't decipher the meaning. I think that's probably the point, though,huh?

― , Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Down with tagging, that shit is nowhere. But respectful grafitti in the right part of town (industrial zones where there are lots of blank walls, and no one lives) is beautiful and should be encouraged. I look at it as a way of humanizing these landscapes.

― Mark, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What I'm hearing:

big, gorgeous, thoughtful "art" = good

ubiquitous, dashed-off replication = bad

Funny, I feel just the opposite most of the time.

Those "in memoriams" that you see on handball courts and the like are beautiful and almost rococo, and they serve a particular purpose - they are testaments to either a passed-on loved one in the community or the writer herself. I bid for greatness, like most of what gets called art.

Tagging serves an entirely different function. It's branding. Since you can't read the wildstyle stuff most of the time anyway it refuses any interpretation other than its own ubiquity.

Of course there's the complaint that tagging is ugly. But. I see it as a routine form of social protest against absentee ownership of the symbols that surround us. Prolly more "Stan 153" tags in New York than McDonald's ads. And I can't help but feel that you got to encourage that kind of thing.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

That's meant to read "a" bid for greatness. I do not now nor ever plan to personally bid for it myself.

― Tracer, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Absentee ownership? I'm not sure most of the tags I see fit that description. Do you mean that some person far off owns a piece of property that gives nothing to the community? Or do you mean the taggers are tagging a sort of "ownership" of their territory? Either way, it seems like pretty unjustifiable behavior. Most of the tags I see are on apartment complexes (peoples homes who own it as far as renting at least), churches, fences, walkways. This is in Queens. As far as Manhattan, it's usually on living quarters, as well. I'm sure the owner of the building doesn't really care as much as the people who have to live there. I would be pretty upset if my nice building suddenly had a tag on it. I know where I work someone keeps tagging the front everytime they take it off. You might as well throw gum in someone's hair.

― , Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

My Glaswegian friend Stuart visited me over New Year's and he reckoned that if he stood still for too long he'd get tagged. Which is not far from the truth in NYC. It took his eyes for me to even recognize all the graf that's around. Normally it's a total blind spot, so it doesn't bother me at all.

I'm just a little suspicious when people fawn over graf "masterpieces" - there have even been museum exhibits where entire buildings facades were removed at great expense and trucked to the gallery - but then can't stand tagging because it might blight their building. It's *supposed* to blight your building. It's definitely *not* supposed to be pretty. Its function is to make you realize that you're part of the network of the street, if only visually. Tagging reminds you that you just *don't get it* (or conversely, that you do). You don't know who these people are, what their tags say. And they're passing right by your building, maybe every day.

Now, if you want to talk about banning Andre the Giant posters I'm definitely down.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Big, "beautiful" artistic pieces THAT WERE ALLOWED BY THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY = good. Any piece that was NOT ALLOWED BY THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY = bad.

I thought I'd clear up that misconception. You shouldn't be destroying anyone's shit, regardless of the motive (unfortunately, I doubt most of 'em have such thought out motives as you have Tracer). If I came up to you, grabbed your CD player, and smashed it up to "reclaim absentee ownership of a symbol", would you applaud me or punch my lights out? I bet everyone here would want to punch me in the nose, but isn't it the same thing? It doesn't matter what your motives are, you're destroying someone else's property, and it's an expense to them, sometimes a great one, to fix it.

I went to a high school that had to get repainted every single week because of tagging. The school taxes kept going up and up and up because of it. This isn't fair or right. There are better ways to get your point across than to ruin it for everyone else, and I find it unfortunate that they don't put this energy to better use.

For the record, I live on the Upper West Side, which has about as much graffiti as, say, Kansas, so it's really not much of an issue here. I can see it on the Lower East Side a lot, though, and oddly the Upper East Side - you east siders, jesus ;)

― Ally, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I hear you. Tagging is a kind of destruction.

But it's of a different order than a CD player. You smash my CD player, it loses utility. I can't enjoy my music. I tag your Riverside Drive apartment and the elevator still works, the mail still gets delivered, the heat still comes on. The destruction (or deconstruction? :)) is in what the front of your apartment *means*. It is longer pristine. It has been rendered violate and touchable. To you this might be just as disturbing as someone anonymously smashing your CD player, but nevertheless the damage is semiotic, not physical.

Tagging changes the meaning of what's been tagged. A tagged delivery van becomes a traveling canvas. A tagged townhouse becomes a symbol of decadence amid squalor. A tagged bodega is... well, just another tagged bodega.

For the sake of this interesting argument: are you foursquare opposed to "culture jammers" defacement of advertising billboards? Surely they are cheating the advertisers out of hundreds of dollars? But is there nothing socially useful in such an activity?

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Tracer, I guess the point is that it's selfish, regardless of whether or not you "get it"
A tagged delivery van becomes a traveling canvas.

Or, to some, a ruined van and an eyesore that costs money to fix.

A tagged townhouse becomes a symbol of decadence amid squalor.

Always nice!

Ah, now we're getting somewhere For the sake of this interesting argument: are you foursquare opposed to "culture jammers" defacement of advertising billboards? Surely they are cheating the advertisers out of hundreds of dollars? But is there nothing socially useful in such an activity?

What if I wanted to read the ad? What if it was my business? I think it's sometimes humorous, but the people who do it should be penalized if caught. A billboard is a pretty expensive piece of realty. Also, the "cause" of such "art" is often subjective and unimportant in the long run; a cause the culture jammer (cool phrase, by the way, huh?) will simply replace with another in the future.

― , Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The van's not "ruined" it just looks different! No damage done except to your retinal utopia.

Classic!

And here to stay.

― Tracer Hand, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Right. You don't care about my retinal utopia? If I wanted a tagged van, I would have bought one, right? Emotional damage counts. And, the paint is physically damaged. The van is devalued, obviously.

― , Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

in detroit there is a religious bit under nearly every freeway overpass that goes on about 'fact more you live with devils the more the devil you become' or something like that. of course it always came in second in Orbit magazine's graffiti competition to the 'no yugo' tag at 12 mile and i-75 which was probably painted by some albanian and pre-dates the whole balkan tension by a decade or more.

― keith, Friday, 27 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

What is this "graffiti" you speak of? Our walls are um.. wall coloured.

(Almost) seriously, there's not so much here. But I agree with Nick's answer, creative is sometimes good, while tagging just plain sucks. Marking your territory like an animal is, well, acting like an animal. I just can't respect or admire that in any readily conceivable way.

Ally, I think then that the question you should have asked was not about smashing the CD player, but rather whether he still wouldn't mind if you had merely spray painted your name all over it and handed it back all butt ugly and nearly impossible to restore to it's previous condition. Yet still fully functional! Somehow I think that, if you pulled that one on most people, they would STILL wanna punch your lights out. :D

― Grim Kim - Torontonian, Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i don't know how committed i am to this but it's a pov:

private property is an institutionalized social construct, nothing "natural." for a variety of reasons that go beyond hard work, there is a real concentration of ownership of the media and frequently of physical space. hell, even if it is mostly because of hard work, maybe it's still not ok. thus, certain powerful interested parties are able to have a greater influence on public consciousness. to try to respond and comment through established channels (pamphlets, letters to the editor, . . .) is comparatively meaningless. "culture jamming" and thoughtful graffiti are methods by which the public can reclaim and comment on an alienating environment.

― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sundar, it would be nice if there was one piece of land left on earth that I would not have to pay taxes to or be subject to someone else's system of government. If I found this place, I would certainly be annoyed if someone came to my plot of land and told me it was unnatural for me to consider this hut I'd built and this land I'd farmed to be mine. It belongs to the earth! And, seeing as how it is not rightfully yours, I will now write my name on it. No matter how often they wrote their message on my hut, I would still consider it mine and consider them a nuissance.

― , Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the point wasn't to invalidate the concept of private property altogether but to argue that it is not absolute, that it is as much of a social construct as governments and taxes are -- and similarly can become a tool for concentrating power that should be restricted in some cases. the concept was devised at a time when mass media and transnational corporations could not exist. today, through institutions of private property, powerful corporations have a disproportionate influence on public consciousness through the mass media, advertising, etc (beyond already having a large influence on people's living conditions). of course, some sort of adjustment of the balance of power is the long-term solution but perhaps culture jamming is a short-term way of making a statement.

― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The best bit of graffiti I read was scrawled on a park bench, it read "all the electrical secrets of Heaven". But, the bench was dedicated to a person who had enjoyed sitting in the park, therefore it was an extremely vile and disrespectful thing to deface it in such a manner. Alot of public places are vandalised in this manner, and I just think I'd rather look at a nice tree or well maintained band stand than the said bandstand covered in graffiti. It is selfish.

― james e l, Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes, it's selfish. There can be no denying that. It would be funny if political parties went around tagging on other people's property to make a statement. It would be funny if your mother woke up one morning and decided her low-carb/hi-fat diet was going so well, she's spraypaint the town full of anti-FDA messages. So you have a statement. So what?

― , Saturday, 28 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Never seen any sick flix from Germany, eh? It's a very real art form -- check out Mass Appeal (Brooklyn edition out now) and seek out the big legal walls and (not so legal) freights and see where the next generation of graphic design comes from. When you have a painted street sign selling on E-Bay for 10K, you're more than urban noise.

Gotta give my props...

Ben Grim, Darius Jones, Downey, Bisc., Nesto, Celf, Denz, Esen, Pen and all my G's.

Child (tho I didn't know him personally) R.I.P. Holla.

― JM, Monday, 30 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I think we all know it's a real "art form". So is smearing animal poo on canvas or putting a vacuum cleaner on a simple white box, but the day people smear animal poo on my house or put a vacuum cleaner in my front lawn, I'm bound to get irrate. Graphics shmafficks, anyway. Graffiti influenced design is just as over as techno design. They have no real substance or lasting appeal and only pander to limited markets. Kinda like the japanime stuff or the retro stuff.

― , Monday, 30 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, some people would consider trolling a kind of graffiti.

― dumb buttfuck, Monday, 30 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Well, someone can come and put a vacuum cleaner in my front garden, I could do with a new one to pacify my parents.

― DG, Monday, 30 April 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

three months pass...

Just wanted to say Hi to Darius Jones, Downey and Ben Grim

― buddy lembek, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Holla out to Buddy Lembeck. I know who you are.

― JM, Thursday, 16 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

four months pass...

graffiti-research?...7000 pages from 26 years http://people.freenet.de/graffitiforschung.de/KSurl.htm facts,not fiction

― axel thiel, Monday, 31 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...

hey, u know what? after reading all of some of you people's bullshit, im going to go bombing, just because u piss me off. go catch some criminals, i dont remember anyone arresting Dali or Michaelangelo, yes maybe criticism, but as far as i know it didn't stop them, and it sure as hell aint stopping me "WHAT" props to my bois BEWKEW, DEXOS, WISDOM, TOKEN

― AQ00SE, Monday, 4 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

True, true.

― JM, Monday, 4 February 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...

I think grafitti is a bad thing i just wanted to know if u think the same way

― , Monday, 4 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

scroll up for my 1st ever ILM post! ooh yeah it's earnest!

― Tracer Hand, Monday, 4 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I bid for greatness, like most of what gets called art.

Such ideals, Mr. Hand. What turned you into the bitter, corrupt cynic you are now? ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Monday, 4 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I wuz outbid

― Tracer hand, Monday, 4 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

saw the circa 1983 documentary "Style Wars" recently - very reccomended for a historical perspective on the original social issues and culture that contributed to the rise of graffiti in NYC. and pretty entertaining to boot. i liked seeing its origins in context, and i'm starting to think that maybe it was kind of a moment in time that folks are just lamely imitating now, like rappers who are trying to make "old school" sounding records.

― al, Monday, 4 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

three months pass...

WhenOner is a super guy, as well as Five. I would also like to say hello to Carson Daily and Darius Jones, Merz likes pizza, yes that is the truth. Ben Grim, wher is that kid these days. Well i am just, what ever......booga booga

― Buddy Lembek, Thursday, 6 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What. The. Fuck.

― Jean-Michel Basquiat, Thursday, 6 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ditto.

― Keith Haring, Thursday, 6 June 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...

yall yall, look all good when don't stop to swett in the wallet cave, you know the one with all the grey book ends. treasure these moments fellas, because arbor day is comming next april. don't say i didn't tell you.

(I saw montel williams catch a tag myrtle Ave. True story)

― buddy lembek, Monday, 22 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The cops recently caught one of the biggest taggers in the city. He's 27. Get a fuckin' life.

Another tagger in my neighborhood uses the name "taynt" .. I laughed the first time I saw it... like, if you want to be known as a taint, I'll be glad to call you that - because that's exactly what you are.

There's a wall across from my house that used to get tagged almost every weekend. Then I painted it black, and I continued to repaint it every time I saw graffiti on it - as soon as I woke up in the morning. It hasn't been tagged in a year now - because it's a waste of time.

And if I ever catch someone spraypainting a wall, I gonna fuckin' tag their face. I mean, if they have the right to "beautify" a building, I think I have the right to "beautify" their face.

― Dave225, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh -old thread. Nevermind. Fuckit.

― Dave225, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

two months pass...

heyhey
i agree witchu all
taggin sucks and just looks gay
wen graffiti artists take the time it looks mad and is real ART!
keep it up dudes u rock!
hehe

― laura, Friday, 18 October 2002 01:37 (twenty-two years ago)

greatest post ever.

― Jody Beth Rosen, Friday, 18 October 2002 01:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I always find a scribbled-all-over train carriage more interesting than a dull blank one, which looks ugly anyway.

Where's your trash aesthetic, people?

― Keith McD (Keith McD), Friday, 18 October 2002 05:42 (twenty-two years ago)

if you need all to know about graffiti,we offer 10 000 pages (in 300 chapters,2 languages) from 27 years

http://people.freenet.de/graffitiforschung.de/KSurl.htm

knowing facts helps a lot.....

― axel thiel, Saturday, 19 October 2002 12:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Big, "beautiful" artistic pieces THAT WERE ALLOWED BY THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY = good. Any piece that was NOT ALLOWED BY THE OWNERS OF THE PROPERTY = bad.

Ally, you're a dork. Take away the illegal aspect of graffiti and it doesn't mean shit any more.

― OCP (OCP), Sunday, 20 October 2002 06:13 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

riding the train in from wEstchester has been made quite a pleasant experience by "Pen". if anyone knows him, compliment him for me. I love his work and I appreciate his persistance. His burners are gorgeous, especially the three he did on that abandoned buliding right near 125th street.

― jenny sellars, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 23:31 (twenty-two years ago)

So tell me again why somebody who owns nothing and probably never will should have any respect for property rights?

― Whirligig, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 23:54 (twenty-two years ago)

i meant to say his "throw ups" are gorgeous, forgive me about getting the terminology wrong.

his work has inspired me to learn about grafitti for the first time in my life, i think he's special.

does anyone know him?

― jenny sellars, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think so... second hand. There's Pen and there's Pen 1 from L.I.

Pen has the whole Metro North track area on lockdown for about five miles...

Pen 1 is more Brooklynish.

― jm, Thursday, 7 November 2002 05:13 (twenty-two years ago)

two weeks pass...

yeh well...if u dont like graff...ur old and outdated, u should be more worried about ur health and growing ur hair back, maybe you should be conducting studies to find a solution to make ur penis operate again in a functional manner...u know...painting over our graff is the shittiest form of art ive personally ever seen, my ass can paint better with a roller, and oh, i actually dont mind u painting over my pieces, just another canvas :) thanks u idiots, u save me money and give me more joy...u old, old, old pricks, go sit on ur couch with ur blankee's and be cold, shrivel up and make ur stupid noodles...ALONE, because ur old and u probably smell of some ridiculous odor, it threatens visitors from coming to visit you.

― Ermack Pungle, Wednesday, 27 November 2002 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

anone know what color would go good on a green wodden fence?

― JR, Sunday, 8 December 2002 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

White.

― jm, Sunday, 8 December 2002 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

one month passes...

To all of you that are anti graffiti learn to deal with our “vandalism” because WE WONT STOP ! not even if you paint over it the next day and throw us in jail and if that’s how it has to be then fine. My paint will still be coated all over. Graff does not only take talent but it also plays a key factor in political awareness. Next time you see some open your eyes and try and figure out what it means god forbid you might learn something new. Ohhhh yea and to all you who create pointless graffiti either find something else to do with your pathetic life or learn some actual technique and skill. You’re giving us a bad name with your idiotic chicken scratch. Represent the culture and have a motive

― series, Friday, 24 January 2003 04:15 (twenty-two years ago)

for all of you that think you are the shit and keep on hateing on the art read up on your shit go find "Bomb the Suburbs" by william upski wimsatt

― series, Friday, 24 January 2003 04:40 (twenty-two years ago)

How much 'political awareness' can someone who 'owns nothing and probably never will' have? Sounds like they fucked up somewhere.

― dave q, Friday, 24 January 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

not even if you paint over it the next day and throw us in jail and if that’s how it has to be then fine.

Fine, then. It's settled. We shall paint over it. Please keep up your end of the bargain & report to jail.

― dave225 (Dave225), Friday, 24 January 2003 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

graffiti is a great thing in many ways but just because the cops don't like it and they think were disturbin the community.ha ha ha!!!

― Matui kaptigau, Thursday, 20 April 2006 21:48 (nineteen years ago)

nine years pass...

http://www.modernhiker.com/2015/02/27/is-mr-andre-tagging-in-joshua-tree/

― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Monday, 20 April 2015 18:15 (ten years ago)

eight years pass...

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/06/90/05d9ae6f43f790696246d2f84d50/file-group/oceanwideloop01a-system-generic-hd-mp4-avc-aac-16x9-1280x720p-24hz-4-5mbps.mp4

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Tuesday, 6 February 2024 18:15 (one year ago)

https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/06/90/05d9ae6f43f790696246d2f84d50/file-group/oceanwideloop01a-system-generic-hd-mp4-avc-aac-16x9-1280x720p-24hz-4-5mbps.mp4

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Tuesday, 6 February 2024 18:15 (one year ago)

screw these shitty developers for building this giant shit hole and leaving it vacant in a city that desperately needs affordable housing. the artwork is a huge improvement

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Tuesday, 6 February 2024 18:18 (one year ago)

oh didn't see that this was an ILM thread ugh

― (•̪●) (carne asada), Tuesday, 6 February 2024 18:21 (one year ago)

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