Best Token Mainstream Pop/R&B Single Commonly Appearing in Multiple Indie-Centric, Best-of-Decade Lists *

1 Thing.

for the record i think Don't Stop The Music is sooooo much better than Umbrella.

hahahaha

* most often without acknowledgment to said artists' body of work outside these ubiquitous songs.

^^bears repeating! lots of lists, you'd think these were the only good pop/r&b tracks released in the past 10 years

fwiw only one of these songs is anything close to the best song of its singer's career

http://www.shawnlee.net/

Not sure token is the right word to describe these inclusions. Looking at the Pitchfork and now, Stylus lists, if anything, guitar music is the less dominant/prominent one.

Unless you're saying it's tokenistic to make a list with 80% Top 40 megahits when the LP list is solely indie.

OH WOW I AM SO STOKED THAT WE GET TO HAVE THIS DISCUSSION AGAIN.

Voted for Try Again, anyway.

Yeah yeah yeah sorry, realise that this is what most threads on the music board devolve into.

Crazy In Love was my favourite 00s chart hit (apart from Dizzee's 'I Luv U' in the UK)

"Ignition". but it could have been "try again" (except it wasn't released this decade).

Best Token Mainstream Pop/R&B Single Commonly Appearing on ILX.

haha nice idea for a poll!

'try again' is just so perfect.

I like all of these except "Umbrella."

I like all of these except "Since U Been Gone"

i like all except these three -

R. Kelly - Ignition (Remix)
Kylie Minogue - Can't Get You Out of My Head
Outkast - Hey Ya!

CGYOOMH is ok i suppose but so so so overrated and i never want to hear it or read about it ever again

i liked all of thes cept crazy in love

also BOB

Unless you're saying it's tokenistic to make a list with 80% Top 40 megahits when the LP list is solely indie.

I won't take a hard stance on this but, yes, am thinking along these lines.

Looking at the Pitchfork and now, Stylus lists, if anything, guitar music is the less dominant/prominent one.

In the 2000s it's not so much "guitar music" as simply music with the indie "stamp of approval," if you will. Indie-approved dance music (LCD, Daft Punk, Cut Copy, Hot Chip, Junior Boys), indie-approved hip hop (Jay, Outkast, Ghostface, Doom), indie-approved alt-country and country (Wilco, Miranda Lambert), indie-approved sample-based music (Avalanches), indie-approved music with diverse influences not from the US/UK axis (MIA, Animal Collective, TV on the Radio, Studio), indie-approved classic rock and/or influenced music (Dylan, Hold Steady), and then of course dime-a-dozen indie artists that have become revered (Arcade Fire, Interpol, Strokes, Broken Social Scene, Joanna Newsom, Modest Mouse). There is little music that falls outside the self-congratulatory, indie-approved axis that I've outlined.

Which isn't to say this isn't good, interesting, worthy of being "decade's best" music (I like a fair number of the above artists myself) -- just that it's predictable, boring and as set-in-stone into the indie "canon" as classic rock is in the pages of Rolling Stone over the past 25 years.

Wow, that was something of a long rant. Apologies. Back to thread/poll topic. :)

it's a best-of-decade list WHAT DO YOU EXPECT

"self-congratulatory"? Explain.

There is little music that falls outside the self-congratulatory, indie-approved axis that I've outlined.

do you realize you outlined like 10 different genres there

dude, the war has been won. MANY INDIE ROCKERS NOW ENJOY POP MUSIC, AT LEAST SOME OF IT. find something new to complain about.

aaliyah - i care 4 u
amerie - love's off the chain
beyoncé - suga mama
kelly clarkson - never again
missy elliott - whatcha gon do
kelis - stick up
r kelly - feelin' on yo booty (dirty south remix)
kylie minogue - slow
outkast - gasoline dreams
rihanna - haunted
britney spears - before the goodbye
justin timberlake - lovestoned
usher - pop ya collar

^^would rather listen to these songs by those artists

maybe you should not let these lists by indie websites dictate your musical taste then!

are the songs in this poll actually aggregated from real lists or just what you'd assume would be on these pernicious lists?

I might start whining about the Lindstrom tracks I'd rather listen to than I Feel Space.

Also I haven't seen one list with 'Caught Out There' by Kelis, unless it's regarded as a 90s single.

yes! e.g. Another Station... xp

Aaliyah - "Rock the Boat"
Amerie - "Take Country"
Kylie - "Love at First Sight" or "2 Hearts"
Rihanna-The-Dream - "Livin' a Lie" (on my list)
Usher - "U Remind Me" (ditto)

SINCE U BEEN MOTHERFUCKING GONE MOTHERFUCKERS! POW!

Anyway:

Try Again > Crazy In Love > Toxic > Work It > 1 Thing > Get Ur Freak On > Umbrella > Milkshake >> Since U Been Gone >>> My Love >>> Can't Get U Out Of My Head >>>>>> Hey Ya >>>>>> Ignition >>>>>>> Cry me A River >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yeah

Mad DC more like

are the songs in this poll actually aggregated from real lists or just what you'd assume would be on these pernicious lists?

Loosely aggregated. I looked at Pfork, Stylus, NME, Rolling Stone and a couple others for commonly appearing tracks.

If we're doing this:

(best-to-worst)
Get Ur Freak On
Crazy in Love
Hey Ya!
Try Again
Can't Get You
Milkshake
Toxic
Since U Been Gone
Work It
Ignition
My Love
1 Thing
Umbrella
Yeah!
Cry Me a River

Only really like Since upwards. I also think Paper Planes is of a piece with ilxor's list and that would maybe place below Crazy in Love.

Kinda fucked up that there aren't more rock songs. Why didn't artists similar to Clarkson, like Avril, have a breakthrough with the indie kids?

ones that are way high up on my own decade list: Since U Been Gone, 1 Thing, Toxic

ones that are somewhere in the middle: My Love, Get Ur Freak On, Ignition

ones that would be low on it or not there at all: Crazy In Love, Try Again, Can't Get You Out Of My Head, Cry Me A River

ones that I just don't really like at all: Hey Ya!, Yeah!, Milkshake, Work It, Umbrella

Worst poll on these might have been fun, until "Hey Ya" took it in a walk.

^I think the reason is that Kelly's actually sounds like an indie rock song in some way. Verse could be Interpol, and I can even imagine Paul Banks singing the verse melody. Guitar break is almost surgically extracted from YYY's Maps. Avril, Ashlee, Liz Phair sound much closer to major label alt rock/modern rock radio trends.

Not to say that's undesirable of course!

I also think Paper Planes is of a piece with ilxor's list and that would maybe place below Crazy in Love.

It is, but her two albums are ranking pretty highly in the best-of-decade album polls. Which is to say, she gets respect from indie purists outside of her breakthrough mainstream single. Pfork et al. sang her praises long before "Paper Planes" hit the charts. Good tune, btw.

I could quite easily compile my top 10 of the decade list out of just these songs. Plus The Libertines.

Token indie track!

if artists whose albums appeared on a lot of lists by the same people is an excluding criteria then Missy shouldn't be here

Same could be said for Outkast, which is why I said "most often without acknowledgment" -- there are exceptions. Those three Outkast and Missy songs still seem like token inclusions of their international superhits, though, to me.

yeah, forgot about Outkast. it's a shame, too, like half the artists on here have really good albums that were on my '00s list.

SINCE U BEEN MOTHERFUCKING GONE MOTHERFUCKERS! POW!

I wish I heard what others hear in this song. I like it okay. I get that it's at the intersection of rock, indie rock and pop (at least I think that's part of the appeal). But the big, prosessed-guitar-driven chorus kinda falls flat for me. It's no Umbrella or Crazy In Love, I'll put it that way.

I think it's up there with those in terms of scale of release but it always felt more rote to me and i don't get why elevate it over e.g. 'Just Like A Pill' or indeed 'Sk8r Boi' but that stuff isn't really my bag

Not my bag, either. I'm just trying to readjust to life as a soldier in the defeated army.

dude, the war has been won. MANY INDIE ROCKERS NOW ENJOY POP MUSIC, AT LEAST SOME OF IT. find something new to complain about.

dude wtf this stuff seriously can't be your bag if you think 'just like a pill' is in any way comparable to 'since u been gone' - i loves me some p!nk but 'just like a pill' is just not exciting in the way 'since u been gone' is.

I see them as the same kind of song, even if Since U packs more of a wallop or whatever.

"Confide in Me"'s definitely in my top 3 or 4.

Kylie's Fever only has I think 3 middling songs on it, it's a brilliant album.

Yes indeed, which is why it made my top twenty.

I like or love all of these songs. Don't know if I can choose.

I voted "Yeah!" but it was a toss-up between that and "1 Thing" really.

I wd like to calmly but vehemently hate on the general premise of the thread title tho.

What all of these songs have in common over something like Senorita or Girlfriend or ugh 'What Are You Waiting For' is that the protagonists sound, y'know, sympathetic - alot of people coming from indie are unlearning a reflex of "this person's concerns say nothing to be about my life" but it is definitely a step too far to hit full-on "this person's concern's are basically hostile to mine".

"what you waiting for?" probably says more to me about my life than any of these songs except "try again"! (not the same as liking it better.) i don't really see how gwen or justin in "señorita" are unsympathetic, and with avril it's sort of the whole comic point and you can't really take it seriously.

Kylie all the way. No competition at all.

(The only one here that I strongly despise would be "1 Thing" though)

Geir, why do you despise it??

nooooooo

Paul McCartney didn't write it in blackface.

It's just occurred to me that Hung Up has not appeared in anywhere near enough 00s lists given what a beast of a dancefloor banker it is.

fav kylie trax = "slow" and "confide in me" 4eva.

You forgot the one with Nick Cave ;)

yeah 'Hung Up' is my favourite 00s Madonna single (not really sayin much tho)

fav kylie trax = "slow" and "confide in me" 4eva.

Mine too.

I actually think what Dan is criticising about Umbrella is what works in its favour, the song itself is actually kind of clunky if you stand back and look at it but the overall sound is like some kind of relentless girlpop tank that just rolls over everything in its path.

You are not supposed to care about Kylie as a performer, or empathise with her lyrics, or anything like that. It's always about the overall package with her - she's canny enough to know her limitations and compensate for them in other ways.

Hmm, I think in some senses you are supposed to care about Kylie as a performer but not on a track-by-track basis - or rather, her songs rarely work that way. In retrospect "making listeners care" was the primary motivation of her Impossible Princess album, and while I loved it at the time I think now those attempts can seem hamfisted and clunky, it's like "yeah Kyles you got issues, we get it". Kylie doesn't need to push this line because her entire career and body of work is always lurking in the background of everything she does, this provides the sense of meaning and import that the track as a construction/performance may appear to lack.

Where I'd agree with and build on Matt's argument is as follows: the correct emotional relationship with pretty much all the best of Kylie's work ("Better The Devil You Know", "Confide In Me", "Can't Get You Out Of My Head", "Love At First Sight", "I Believe In You", "The One") is not one of empathy or care-about-her, but rather direct identification - Kylie is a vacant cipher so that you can inhabit her songs, be the person singing.

And what's interesting about all the songs I just listed is that they are all - to varying extents - about a kind of wish to collapse the space between the desirer (Kylie and Me) and the desired ("You" and You) on the basis of a kind of inadequacy or incompleteness of the former, but also about Kylie's/my entitlement to this, the belief that love at first sight is supposed to happen and deserves to happen.

i.e. it is the opposite of that kind of Morrissey-esque romanticisation of failure, or at any rate the moment prior to it - not "I know it's over" but "it's not over, not over, not over, not over yet!" It is failure - or at the very least any departure from the purity of Kylie's demand for a comingling of identities - which is a necessary precursor to the development of content and character that you can empathise with or care about.

In some ways "The One" is Kylie's ultimate song because it encapsulates this whole vibe so deliberately, esp. the perfection of the chorus: "I'm the one / Love me love me love me love me!"

i believe in you is my kylie song of choice for sure

this list needs more "promise"

regardless of Kylie's alleged vacancy, I like the idea of her actually having done 'Not Over Yet'

Actually after that post I tried to imagine this and I'm not sure it would work - would she be able to be imperious enough?

You are not supposed to care about Kylie as a performer, or empathise with her lyrics, or anything like that.

yeah my point was more that i don't understand how some people very obviously DO care about all these things.

Kylie doesn't need to push this line because her entire career and body of work is always lurking in the background of everything she does, this provides the sense of meaning and import that the track as a construction/performance may appear to lack

i don't get this in the slightest - when kylie reaches greatness it's usually because she's hit on a really well-crafted song, not because she has 20 years of drifting between shrugworthy mediocrity and occasional greatness behind her. in a way it's remarkable not that she's managed to parlay her limitations into a massively successful career but how she's managed to go those 20 years without even coming close to revealing a persona(lity).

Kylie is a vacant cipher so that you can inhabit her songs, be the person singing

i'd agree, and this kind of relationship is hardly common to her, but it's a lot less common in pop/r&b than is often assumed to be the case - i've become wary of the "she's a cipher" argument because it's often brought out to minimise the individuality of the singer in question. i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher! (idiot SR, obv.) but anyway yeah, kylie is a cipher, and that's precisely what i was arguing - i can't discern anything of her in her material, and when she doesn't have super-strong material the entire edifice collapses easily. hence, not getting why she particularly is the object of affection.

i'd agree, and this kind of relationship is hardly common to her, but it's a lot less common in pop/r&b than is often assumed to be the case

Yes, and this is why it's an interesting thing in Kylie's case. I think this line is over-used because it seems seductively familiar to reforming pop-skeptics.

i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher! (idiot SR, obv.)

This line actually made a certain (albeit limited, and at times distorted) amount of sense pre-Aaliyah though, I think. I would say that tunes like "One In A Million", "Try Again", "Hot Like Fire" posit Aaliyah's personality as, not blank, but unobtainable, somewhere else or at least somewhere that can't be grasped and held (though not absent), what you see in her (musical) "eyes" is really your own desire for her. This is a very R&B thing (though not typical of R&B, precisely - Aaliyah on these songs pushes it quite far) and can be contrasted with Kylie where the idea is to look out of Kylie's eyes. Two opposite effects, then, but there are certain similarities I would say, at least superficially. Aaliyah obv had some very different, classically emotive material e.g. "I Care 4 U", while stuff like "I Can Be" are all about constructing a very tangible-seeming persona.

and when she doesn't have super-strong material the entire edifice collapses easily. hence, not getting why she particularly is the object of affection.

The first part of this is correct, and it's why I'll never give all kylie a free pass every time because her weak material is just weak. But she's had a lot of super-strong material*, and live she's pretty amazing,

* Add "Shocked", "Put Yourself In My Place", "Your Disco Needs You", "Chocolate" to all of the stuff listed here plus most of Fever.

how she's managed to go those 20 years without even coming close to revealing a persona(lity).

This is wrong though, I think. Impossible Princess is successful in its aims, I just increasingly wonder if those aims ("revealing a persona") are in Kylie's best interests.

The third term (with respect to my Kylie/Aaliyah dichotomy) is pop/R&B which paints a scene, which puts you next to the diva, understanding her position and egging her on - neither an object of desire nor identification, but rather empathy, respect, a kind of emotional solidarity, a desire-to-understand - "Irreplaceable" is the archetypal example of this for me.

Compare that to "One In A Million", which is emotionally devastating but in a very different and unusual way.

Geir, why do you despise it??

Tuneless, repetitive, and extremely annoying drums that are all over the place with seemingly no control. It has everything a good pop song shouldn't and nothing a good pop song should.

i've even read people calling effing AALIYAH a cipher!

I was going to respond to this but Tim pretty much nailed it.

Yeah, but look: Geir's nailing Aaliyah in her coffin!

My favourite Kylie song is "In My Arms" and Tim has expressed a lot that I think about that song - it is endlessly seductive but it's a kind of self-seduction, there's a narcissism embedded even into the sound of it. Narcissism slathered with the sadness of the never attainable. And this is almost the exact same quality I find in Aaliyah's "More than a Woman", foremost but not alone in Aaliyah's work.

I'm really not invested in performers' personality, tho. Maybe that explains my love of emptiness.

Yeah, but look: Geir's nailing Aaliyah in her coffin!

"Try Again" has a lot to it, actually. Surely, the rhythm is a bit annoying and too dominating, but it has kind of a tune, and some really exciting retro synth sounds that would prove to be very influential on 00s music in general. I feel no need to diss that song. Although I prefer Kylie's straight, unsyncopated 4/4-discobeats.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Even though I love it I'm vaguely pleased that "Milkshake" came last. That more than "Hey Ya" even seemed to be the tune where all the indie-centric dudes I know suddenly started saying "you know man, I'm not really into this kind of stuff normally, but this rocks and I can't get it out of my head, those neptunes guys are pretty cool eh" and (esp. my indie-centric work colleagues) singing the chorus like some badge of honour.

it sounds like you're describing "ignition" more than anything else to me

"Yeah!" & "Cry Me a River" getting 1 each = smh

i don't remember anything like that with "milkshake", in fact it might well apply to every other song on this list MORE than "milkshake"

i mean isn't the "critical consensus" that kelis's peak was with her debut, as muse for prime neptunes, and the neps-abandonment/more overtly commercial tasty wasn't so well-received?

Yet more evidence of all of these perceptions coming down to who you speak to.

No indie person I have ever met IRL has ever liked "Ignition" - they all stan for "Milkshake".

Probably also behind why I see all those nice-design-aesthetic funky-not-funky acts as being essentially indie-dance and you don't - we speak to different people so the records get framed differently in our heads.

i mean isn't the "critical consensus" that kelis's peak was with her debut, as muse for prime neptunes, and the neps-abandonment/more overtly commercial tasty wasn't so well-received?

No, I don't think there's ever been a pro-Kaleidoscope critical consensus except, like, on ILM - most critics didn't latch onto The Neptunes until 2001 and Wanderland didn't even get released in the US if I recall, so "Milkshake" was actually the first time lots of critics really enthused over Kelis.

Also remember your own point that indie critics don't listen to whole R&B albums.

oh i always forget that the UK was about the only place where "caught out there" and "good stuff" were genuinely big hits

and wtf r kelly is fetishised by every indie kid everywhere, trapped in the closet even more than "ignition" but def "ignition" as well, everyone knows this!

i remember that one year everyone came back from atp full of "hilarious" tales about watching TITC in their chalets and i pursed my lips so much it was like i had money in my mouth

Yeah, I would wager that there are wide swaths of Americans for whom "Milkshake" is the only Kelis song they know.

Damn right. It's better than yours.

i'd wager that there are wide swathes of british people who remember both "caught out there" and "milkshake" but who haven't realised that they're sung by the same person

"Bossy" was a big hit in the US too (although not nearly as iconic)

I think in Melbourne at least pretty much no indie kids ever ever ever fell for male-vocal R&B aside from JT. Like, not even Usher. Also R Kelly's arrangements (while amazing obv) would not have seemed interesting to that crowd over here I suspect; and his entire appeal would have been too erm performative.

I mean indie kids who watch compulsively watch youtube clips and the like, maybe, but in terms of actual respectability, no way. "Milkshake" was even a hit on our arch-conservative youth radio station JJJ (the one that did the top 100 songs of all time list that had, like, one woman on it) - that has never and will never happen for R Kelly.

I mean, just look at this pretty vile Triple J Hottest 100 List for 2003 (though interestingly "Work It" beat "Milkshake", and "Hey Ya" actually came second):

1. Jet - Are You Gonna Be My Girl?
2. Outkast - Hey Ya!
3. White Stripes - Seven Nation Army
4. Powderfinger - (Baby I’ve Got You) On My Mind
5. Coldplay - Clocks (Royksopp Remix)
6. The Cat Empire - Hello
7. Powderfinger - Sunsets
8. John Butler Trio - Zebra
9. Hilltop Hoods - The Nosebleed Section
10. Powderfinger - Love Your Way
11. Something For Kate - Déjà Vu
12. The Waifs - Lighthouse
13. Dandy Warhols - We Used To Be Friends
14. White Stripes - The Hardest Button To Button
15. Butterfingers - I Love Work
16. Little Birdy - Relapse
17. Jack Johnson - Taylor
18. Ben Harper - Diamonds On The Inside
19. Jet - Roll Over D.J.
20. Pete Murray - Feeler
21. Epicure - Armies Against Me
22. Red Hot Chili Peppers - Fortune Faded
23. Living End - Who's Gonna Save Us?
24. Jack Johnson - The Horizon Has Been Defeated
25. Little Birdy - Baby Blue
26. Frenzal Rhomb - Russell Crowe's Band
27. Ben Folds - There's Always Someone Cooler Than You
28. Electric Six - Danger! High Voltage
29. Ben Harper - With My Own Two Hands
30. Placebo - The Bitter End
31. Muse - Time Is Running Out
32. Dandy Warhols - You Were The Last High
33. Electric Six - Gay Bar
34. Michael Franti/Spearhead - Everyone Deserves
Music
35. Magic Dirt - Plastic Loveless Letter
36. Jane's Addiction - Just Because
37. The Cat Empire - Days Like These
38. Butterfingers - Everytime
39. Alex Lloyd - Coming Home
40. Jack Johnson - Times Like These
41. The Beautiful Girls - Black Bird
42. Muse - Stockholm Syndrome
43. The Strokes - 12:51
44. Hilltop Hoods - Dumb Enough
45. A Perfect Circle - Weak And Powerless
46. The Herd - 77%
47. Michael Franti/Spearhead - Bomb The World
48. Radiohead - There There
49. Radiohead - 2+2=5
50. The Waifs - Fisherman's Daughter
51. John Butler Trio - Sista (Live)
52. The Bens - Just Pretend
53. Blink-182 - Feeling This
54. Xavier Rudd - Let Me Be
55. Missy Higgins - Greed For Your Love
56. NOFX - Franco Un-American
57. Missy Elliott - Work It
58. AFI - The Leaving Song Pt.II
59. Gus & Frank - So Entertaining
60. Magic Dirt - Watch Out Boys
61. Metallica - St. Anger
62. The Beautiful Girls - Music
63. Something For Kate - Song For A Sleepwalker
64. Belle & Sebastian - Step Into My Office, Baby
65. Andromeda - Something White And Sigmund
66. Living End - Tabloid Magazine
67. Amiel - Love Song
68. Butterfly Effect - 1 Second Of Insanity
69. Muse - Hysteria
70. A Perfect Circle - The Outsider
71. AFI - Girls Not Grey
72. Placebo - Running Up That Hill
73. Epicure - Life Sentence
74. Cody Chesnutt - Look Good In Leather
75. Roots/Feat. Cody Chesnutt - The Seed (2.0)
76. Powderfinger - Rockin’ Rocks
77. Powderfinger - Stumblin’
78. Gerling - Who's Ya Daddy?
79. Kelis - Milkshake
80. Benny Benassi Presents The Biz - Satisfaction
81. The Chemical Brothers Featuring The Flaming Lips
- The Golden Path
82. Basement Jaxx - Good Luck
83. The Strokes - Reptilia
84. Chicks On Speed - We Don't Play Guitars
85. Missy Elliott - Pass The Dutch
86. Pete Murray - Lines
87. Junior Senior - Move Your Feet
88. Machine Gun Fellatio - Voices In My Head
89. White Stripes - Girl U Have No Faith In Medicine
90. Offcutts - Break It (Down James Brown)
91. Sleepy Jackson - Vampire Racecourse
92. Gyroscope - Doctor, Doctor
93. White Stripes
- I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself
94. White Stripes - In The Cold, Cold Night
95. Placebo - Special Needs
96. Soggy Bottom Boys - Man Of Constant Sorrow
(Skeewiff Remix)
97. The Darkness - Growing On Me
98. Blur - Out Of Time
99. The Mars Volta - Inertiatic Esp
100. The Cat Empire - The Chariot

AUS indie kids truly are a difft species - that list seems far more rock-based than the USA/GBR equiv would be though? like, jet and metallica and muse and placebo aren't really what i'd think of as indie here - certainly not the sort of indie that has anything to do w/critical consensus

Well yeah JJJ is kinda like the point of indie into lumpenrawkatariat crossover - but it's the indie contingent that pushed Outkast and Kelis and Missy into this list, no way was it the rusted on grunge and metal fans.

Kelis - Milkshake 0

Crazy talk.

Rihanna - Umbrella 8
Kelis - Milkshake 0

God Damn U ILM

all these songs are really good and it was kinda inevitable that one was going to get the short end of the stick