TS: Sam Cooke v. Marvin Gaye

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"But I just want to let you all know that my official policy is the following:
Marvin Gaye is cool and all, but Sam Cooke was the best male vocalist of all time. ALL TIME."

Poll Results

OptionVotes
Sam Cooke 39
Marvin Gaye 21


late adopter, Friday, 15 January 2010 02:35 (sixteen years ago)

Inspired by this post:
http://www.postbourgie.com/2010/01/12/sam-cooke-marvin-gaye/

late adopter, Friday, 15 January 2010 02:35 (sixteen years ago)

The quote is true.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 15 January 2010 02:45 (sixteen years ago)

Gaye could be annoyingly mannered sometimes, but aside from some his very early recordings where he tried to be a standards singer, he was always interesting. Cooke's Live at the Copa is annoying slick, and his Billie Holiday tribute album is just tedious.
On the other hand, Gaye probably never quite achieved anything so sublime as the vocals on "A Change is Gonna Come," or as pure and perfectly joyous as "Wonderful World." On the other other hand, could (would?) Cooke have ever transformed the National Anthem into an astoundingly sensual erotic ode?
I think I'll flip a coin on this one.

MumblestheRevelator, Friday, 15 January 2010 02:57 (sixteen years ago)

Cooke's Live at the Harlem Square Club is the best live album of all time.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:00 (sixteen years ago)

And Marvin Gaye's Live at the Palladium , has "Got to Give It Up," which some days gets my vote as the greatest song ever recorded, which helps make up for the fact it's otherwise a merely "pretty good" live album.

MumblestheRevelator, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:05 (sixteen years ago)

I'm an album guy, and I'd take Night Beat and the aforementioned Harlem Square over any of Gaye's albums. I love Marvin Gaye, but nobody is even in spitting distance of Sam.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:16 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke

badg, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:24 (sixteen years ago)

Night Beat is better than any Marvin Gaye album, but Live at the Copa and Tribute to the Lady are worse than any Gaye album I've heard. Harlem Square is pretty much just on the same level of greatness as Moods of Marvin Gaye and Let's Get It On. The thing that might tip the argument decisively in Cooke's favor for me might be his recordings with the Soul Stirrers.

MumblestheRevelator, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:26 (sixteen years ago)

The thing that might tip the argument decisively in Cooke's favor for me might be his recordings with the Soul Stirrers.

big ol' truth bomb here but really this "nobody even close to Cooke" is silly hyperbole. Jackie Wilson is for sure very nearly his equal (and has it all over him for range), Gaye is on similar footing, Stevie Wonder - can't be any question that to say Stevie's not "within spitting distance" of Sam Cooke is just new levels of rongness

Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Friday, 15 January 2010 03:41 (sixteen years ago)

Sorry J0hn - not a fan of Stevie. I'll give ya Jackie Wilson though. Love him more the more I hear.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:44 (sixteen years ago)

Clarify - not a fan of Stevie as a vocalist. As a songwriter, musician and performer, yes.

EZ Snappin, Friday, 15 January 2010 03:48 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke's career was too damn short for him to have the range of great songs and vocal styles that Marvin Gaye had.

Is this thread inspired by the fact that both had specials on PBS Monday night? I couldn't watch the Gaye one after the depression from Cooke.

Zachary Taylor, Friday, 15 January 2010 06:03 (sixteen years ago)

Marvin has the advantage and disadvantage of lasting through the 70s and 80s. Sam Cooke's output was more consistent, but I don't think the highs of his body of work can compete with Marvin's.

musically, Friday, 15 January 2010 06:16 (sixteen years ago)

and I have been listening to Got to Give It Up a lot in the past few days and have come to the conclusion that it is, in fact, the perfect song.

musically, Friday, 15 January 2010 06:17 (sixteen years ago)

sam is the only US soul singer i'd pick over marvin

hope this helps (Granny Dainger), Friday, 15 January 2010 06:17 (sixteen years ago)

I love Marvin but Sam moves that much more.

Enfonce bien tes ongles et tes doigts délicats dans la jungle de (Michael White), Friday, 15 January 2010 15:21 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke

kornrulez6969, Friday, 15 January 2010 15:27 (sixteen years ago)

Much love for Sam Cooke, but for a romantic evening at home, I'm going to put on Marvin every time.

Brad C., Friday, 15 January 2010 15:39 (sixteen years ago)

Sam

shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 15 January 2010 16:41 (sixteen years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFnF1yn6jfI

Sam basically wrote the book that every subsequent soul singer has cribbed from, so he wins

shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 15 January 2010 16:44 (sixteen years ago)

Unfair competition to Marvin Gaye, as Sam Cooke has the most beautiful male voice in recorded history.

Now, Saturday, 16 January 2010 02:31 (sixteen years ago)

Gaye

President Keyes, Saturday, 16 January 2010 02:45 (sixteen years ago)

Sam basically wrote the book that every subsequent soul singer has cribbed from, so he wins

this overstatement begins from a false premise - it's not like Cooke is a Louis Armstrong basically inventing new shit from whole cloth all day - he's turning up the levels of the gospel vocal approach in a pop/rhythm & blues context. it's innovative, no doubt, but it's not this fearsome force of originality; it's syncretic. I mean, is Sam Cooke lesser than the models he based his style on? obviously not, so the idea that he's the best because he got there first, this is some Hongroism

Lee Dorrian Gray (J0hn D.), Saturday, 16 January 2010 03:04 (sixteen years ago)

Also, it's not as if there weren't other prominent, innovative contemporaries working at the same time as Cooke. Ray Charles, anyone?

stupid fruity crazy swag crew jumpin in yo thread (The Reverend), Saturday, 16 January 2010 03:23 (sixteen years ago)

Ray Charles, anyone?

Yeah, the claim Cooke invented soul kind of ignores Ray Charles, who recorded "I Got a Woman" two years before Cooke went pop.

MumblestheRevelator, Saturday, 16 January 2010 03:30 (sixteen years ago)

Another argument in Gaye's favor is that it often sounds to me like his style was much jazzier than Cooke's. One of the problems I have with Cooke's Billie Holiday tribute album is that he clearly didn't get jazz phrasing - he's just too pitch perfect, that tone too pure liquid gold when some of those songs need a little iron & rust in them. Gaye's early, Nat King Cole influenced recordings don't really work, but I think he learned enough from obsessing over Cole and the jazz traditions Cole emerged from to understand something about how to flirt around a lyric, and thought about ways of using his vocals as pure sound in ways that didn't merely chase after beauty, but sought and produced something that was compellingly unkempt and strange.

MumblestheRevelator, Saturday, 16 January 2010 03:41 (sixteen years ago)

marvin

♖♕♖ (am0n), Saturday, 16 January 2010 05:36 (sixteen years ago)

I agree with the guy that said it isn't fair to Marvin. Marvin is an albums guy, you should vote for him. I really like Sam Cooke's folk influences.

Phil Domino (u s steel), Saturday, 16 January 2010 12:00 (sixteen years ago)

I agree that Harlem Square Club is the greatest live album of all time

but What's Going on is the greatest... album of all time

so Marvin wins

bakerstreetsaxsolo, Saturday, 16 January 2010 13:34 (sixteen years ago)

Did Marvin Gaye sing lost & lookin'? no? Sam Cooke then.

ABSOLUTELY NO SCRUBS WHATSOEVER, Saturday, 16 January 2010 13:46 (sixteen years ago)

just found Live At The Harlem Square Club on vinyl yesterday, one week before my birthday. best birthday present i ever gave myself. oh yeah, Sam Cooke was born on my birthday. NO CONTEST.

Cosmo Vitelli, Saturday, 16 January 2010 17:01 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke vs Curtis Mayfield could've been a contest.

Moka, Saturday, 16 January 2010 19:57 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke and Ray Charles are my favorites of the artists mentioned here. Sort of like the Beatles and the Stones of soul.

nicky lo-fi, Saturday, 16 January 2010 21:29 (sixteen years ago)

Agree with Moka. For what he did with the Impressions and then solo- I think he is way underrated. Did Sam Cooke write the music and lyrics?

Hinklepicker, Sunday, 17 January 2010 02:19 (sixteen years ago)

Yes. Sam Cooke wrote the music and lyrics and started a label and produced.

Zachary Taylor, Sunday, 17 January 2010 07:56 (sixteen years ago)

Sam Cooke's career was too damn short for him to have the range of great songs and vocal styles that Marvin Gaye had.

this

so grudgingly I vote Marvin Gaye...now take that godamn gun away from my head

the eagle laughs at you (m coleman), Sunday, 17 January 2010 13:11 (sixteen years ago)

A vote for Marvin is not a vote against Sam.

Haha, m coleman otm.

the clones of tldr funkenstein (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 17 January 2010 17:07 (sixteen years ago)

Sam. Better songs, better voice, IMO.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Sunday, 17 January 2010 21:02 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Wednesday, 20 January 2010 00:01 (sixteen years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:01 (sixteen years ago)

that's right

shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:04 (sixteen years ago)

It's weird to vote against an artist whose brief career never stepped wrongly versus someone who outlived him and wasn't afraid to fail. Not a slight against Cooke, just sayin.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:06 (sixteen years ago)

against = for

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:06 (sixteen years ago)

Cooke made some false steps, I don't think there's any denying that (his supper-club/Nat King Cole-wannabe routine never really worked, for example). And J0hn's correct to point out that I'm unfairly priveleging Cooke as an "originator" (always a debatable term) but I dunno there's just SOMETHING about Sam as an innovator and as a template that is so striking and runs so deep... for ex. you can still hear his phrasing being copied/quoted decades later, and in the weirdest places (whether its Steve Perry/Journey or R. Kelly)

x-posts

shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:11 (sixteen years ago)

Does innovation matter?

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:13 (sixteen years ago)

I should quote the late film critic Robin Wood on the perils of innovation.

Blue Fucks Like Ben Nelson (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:13 (sixteen years ago)

I'm of two minds about innovation mattering... on the other hand, when I hear Cooke I can instinctively grasp WHY he influenced so many, it's like a train I want to get on cuz it looks like its headed somewhere great and everyone on it is having a wonderful time and its shiny and new and fun to ride. when innovation's like that, yeah, it matters.

shake hands with Gongo? (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 00:17 (sixteen years ago)

four weeks pass...

I'm gonna have to go with Marvin on this on, only because Sam never really reach into the depths that Marvin did. Songs like "your the man" "mercy me" and Flyin' High there's no comparison to Marvin's body of work! So for me Marvin wins, vocally though thats another question... But as far as artist stand point NO ONE compares to The Great Marvin

The King, Saturday, 20 February 2010 08:13 (fifteen years ago)

thirteen years pass...

The drumming is sick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFCkY31unmY

poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 12 January 2024 11:44 (two years ago)

man that record is so good

J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Friday, 12 January 2024 11:53 (two years ago)

Yes to In Our Lifetime. Details on it from Wiki (some from the Ritz book on Gaye) I did not know :

one of Marvin's touring and recording musicians, bassist Frank Blair, decided to take the contents of the album's master tapes to Motown's Hollywood offices, which was done unbeknownst to Gaye, who was remixing and editing the album in Odyssey Studios in London. Motown, still angered over Gaye's backing away from the Love Man project, revised the album for several weeks.

When In Our Lifetime was finally issued in recording stores on January 15, 1981, Marvin was angry over its rush release.[16] Gaye later said, "How could they embarrass me like that? I was humiliated. They also added guitar licks and bass lines.(The former actually happened with Heavy Love Affair.) How dare they second guess my artistic decisions? Can you imagine saying to an artist, say Picasso, 'Okay Pablo, you've been fooling with this picture long enough. We'll take this unfinished canvas and add a leg here, an arm there. You might be the artist, but you're behind schedule, so we'll finish this painting for you. If you don't like the results, Pablo, baby, that's tough!' I was heartbroken. I was deeply hurt. Motown went behind my back. That's something I'll never forgive or forget."[17][18] Upon hearing it, he said the label had re-edited the album without his rightful permission in which Motown admitted to trying to make the album commercially viable.[17] However, sales for the album were low, despite its critical success, producing a sole R&B hit with "Praise" and peaking at number thirty-two on the Billboard Top 200 album charts, but hitting number six on the Billboard R&B album charts. After its release, Marvin asked to be let go from his contract.

curmudgeon, Monday, 15 January 2024 19:47 (two years ago)

It's probably been shared before but here's Gaye performing the national anthem at the 1983 NBA All-Star Game, famously, in 4/4 time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2KYZ1BritY

Indexed, Tuesday, 16 January 2024 19:19 (two years ago)

There was a controversy at the time over whether Houston had lip-synched. She had. The difficult chord changes, the cumbersome phrasing, and the unpredictability of the weather made it standard practice for singers performing the anthem at the Super Bowl to sing to a prerecorded track. (Houston sang the song live not long after, in a hastily arranged TV special, which quieted any doubters.) When Houston was initially asked to sing the anthem, weeks before, she told her longtime bandleader and arranger Rickey Minor that the only version of the song she liked was Marvin Gaye’s performance at the 1983 N.B.A. All-Star Game, with him accompanied by a simple drum machine, a performance now mostly known only to hardcore soul enthusiasts. “It wasn’t rushed,” she said. “He was able to take his time.”

That was enough for Minor, who, in the days before YouTube, tracked down a VHS copy of Gaye’s performance and, together with the composer John Clayton, Jr., made the radical choice to move the song from a 3/4 time signature to 4/4, giving Houston more room inside each measure to nurture the notes.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/anthem-of-freedom-how-whitney-houston-remade-the-star-spangled-banner

Indexed, Tuesday, 16 January 2024 19:26 (two years ago)


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