Taking Sides: German speaking Kraftwerk vs English speaking Kraftwerk

http://991.com/newGallery/Kraftwerk-Die-Mensch-Maschi-492662.jpg
http://mymlanthereal.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/kraftwerk_the_man_machine_album_cover.jpg

I prefer English speaking Kraftwerk, because a) I don't speak German and b) to my unschooled ear, it doesn't sound like a very musical language.

... which is exactly why it's better for the man/machine robot timbre they're after.

(oddly 14tracks.com sent me email for their new compilation this morning and one of the tracks is by a french band who recorded their album in the same studio as the man machine (two years later) and they sound like i imagine a french kraftwerk would. Moderne they are called. http://www.boomkat.com/item.cfm?id=259439 )

I prefer English speaking Kraftwerk, because a) I don't speak German

^

The originals are better performed, but English makes more sense to me.

Some tracks work better in German, others in English. "Radioactivity" is better in German. "Pocket Calculator" better in English.

In theory, I vote German, cz I like the language (I only speak a v. little) and because possibly my favourite Kraftwerk track is Autobahn, and the lyrics to that look really banal in translation, but as sung in German they're fascinating and majestic little epigrams.

But I've grown up with, say, the English version of "The Robots" and the different stress pattern of the German lyrics throws me completely. I don't know if the English sounds better or if I'm just too used to it. I think I prefer the English lyrics to The Model too. So... tough one. Needs more thought. Still gut reaction of German though.

What about the subtle variation in the music/mixing? Has anyone properly documented this?

From a design point of view,

http://www.666-hellish.com/cddatenbank/cover/Kraftwerk_-_Radio-Aktivitaet.jpg

looks better than

http://musicophiliadaily.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/kraftwerk-antenna-1975.jpg

i think TRANCE EYEROPA EXPRESS sounds much better than TRANS EUROPE EXPRESS

Somehow I feel that Ralf loosens up a bit when he sings in English, and sounds slightly more emotional, or more like he's having fun playing this crazy megalomaniac calculator owner in the case of "Pocket Calculator".

I also think Pocket Calculator and Robots make more sense in english, not sure why but it feels to me like english is the definite version. The rest of their output I prefer in German.

i prefer everything in german apart from "the model" because the "KORREKT" bit is really harsh sounding and ruins the song. I find the concept "i speak english so i prefer that" really strange because a lot of my favourite music is in foreign languages and if you really want to know what they're singing about a bit of light googling will reveal all. Also if you know similar languages it can be sort of educational listening to people singing in foreign languages, i know a little bit of a portuguese from listening to lots of brazilian music and being able to piece together sentences through context and similarity of words to latinate english words and spanish words that i know.

of course i'm not saying you are incorrect for preferring english because it is your language just that does not compute for me.

there's too much english in the world already tbh

What about the subtle variation in the music/mixing? Has anyone properly documented this?

I would also like to know this please

Mmm the only notorious difference that I'm aware of is in the editing of "Trans-Europe Express" & "Metal on Metal" in UK/German versions. In the German version Trans Europe makes the transition to Metal on metal 20 seconds earlier than in the UK version.

Also Metal on Metal is treated in UK versions as a 7 minute song and in German it is divided as Metal on Metal for it's two first minutes and as a new song, Abzug, for the remaining 5.

But I think that has nothing to do with music/mixing :P

In English because the phrasing and pronunciation make it sound even more robotic. OTOH, the way the line "wir fahren auf der Autobahn" is pronounced later in the song is just so beautiful, comforting and lulling it feels as if the voice is actually saying "welcome to paradise" or something like that.

vs French speaking Kraftwerk

Ich bin allein, mal wieder ganz allein,
starr auf dem Fernsehschirm, starr auf dem Fernsehschirm.
Auch heute noch nichts zu tun, auch heute noch nichts zu tun.
Ich brauch ein Rendez-vous, ich brauch ein Rendez-vous

Ich wähl die Nummer, ich wähl die Nummer
Rufe Bildschirmtext, rufe Bildschirmtext.
Auch heute noch nichts zu tun, auch heute noch nichts zu tun
Ich brauch ein Rendez-vous, ich brauch ein Rendez-vous

Woher sind Bowie und Pop?
Ach, Ich glaube, sie sind daruber, kartoffelnsalad hat sie etwas essen.

ach, hopeless.

Amber was asking my opinion on which language would be more useful, Spanish or German. (She's doing French at the moment), I said Spanish.

German is all right, but I only met two people ever that spoke German and no English...

computerwelt > computerworld
(denn Zeit ist Geld)

I agree with Now above: the English vox often seem stiffer/more deadpan, the German vox more emotional (which I don't want!). This seems to me to be particularly true in more wistful tracks such as Europa Endlos, and Neonlicht: the singing there feels much more like ordinary singing than on the English versions.

Hmm. For me, this is a definitely a song-by-song thing... 'Pocket Calculator' and 'The Model' sound better to me in English, 'Radioactivity' and 'Trans Europe Express' sound better to me in German, and I couldn't even begin to imagine what an English version of 'Autobahn' would sound like.

I've never liked the "KORREKT!" in 'Das Model', I appreciate that it was a humorous band in-joke, but the song is much better without it, IMO.

Difficult question, because most of my favourite Kraftwerk songs are instrumentals (or have only one or two words)? For me, this is down to what the lyrics actually *are*. (I thought it might be down to the lyricist, that Schult's lyrics are better in English, and Hütter's better in German - but then I checked Computerwelt and a lot of that is still Schult, and still better in German.)

What it is, is that the German lyrics are often cleverer, in really subtle ways. But what the English lyrics lose in subtlety, they often gain in directness. Pocket Calculator is much better than Taschenrechner because it's so simple and childlike, but Computerwelt is a much more sinister and interesting song than Computer World. Computerwelt catches the creepiness of Big Data in a way that Computer World just sounds "gee golly whiz computers are great."

When Hütter sings in German, he puts more effort into the emotional performance - sometimes this is highly effective, when he is singing of things that require affect. But sometimes, on the funnier songs, he strays over the line into being rather hammy. The jokes are not as funny when they're hammy! In English, he is concentrating so hard on the correct pronunciation that his affect is indeed much more flat. The jokes are funnier in a very flat affect, because there's that slight moment of doubt as to whether it is supposed to be funny or ironic, when he says something like "posing for consumer-products now and then" - a line like this is much better in English where it's slightly ambiguous, than the outright hamminess of that song in German. (Can I also just say I hate the way that the newer versions of Radioactivity have destroyed the beautiful ambiguity of Radioaktivität but they have actually changed the lyrics to that, instead of mistranslating.)

But it's really been throwing me off in terms of... I've spent the past 3 or 4 years trying to translate Kraftwerk lyrics into Cornish. (For an assignment, it's easier to learn a new language through singing.) The English lyrics are much easier to translate because Hütter's English translation skill was so basic. But now I'm looking at these songs in German, like... oh no! Some of these are mistranslations, because something like Heimcomputer, I'm sorry but the lyrics in English are a bit stupid. But in German, the use of the Dative Case completely changes the meaning of the song: he's not "beaming himself" into the future; he is programming a future self. English is not an inflected language, there are dative constructions, but not really a dative case. In Cornish, there is a definite dative case (well, really, what we do is ram all the words together so the pronoun gets infixed into the verb or the preposition) so I should have used the dative and I'm going to have to rewrite. But I'll probably have to actually start learning German again to translate directly from German to Cornish.

But also I just wanted to say that Glitzerstrahl is one of the most beautiful words I've ever heard, and also the concept is beautiful, and the vocoder/chorusing effect that they put on their voices when they sing it is just the most beautiful moment.

Are there German and English versions of "Radioactivity"? Every version I've ever heard has alternate German and English verses.

"Schaufensterpuppen" is a great word."Europe Endless" has a nicer flow to it than "Europa Endlos"

No, sorry, I wasn't trying to imply that there were separate English / German versions. They are alternate verses.

I was complaining that the newer, revamped version (with the Vocoder going "Tschernobyl, Sellafield..." etc.) was not as good as the original - it wasn't the translation, they did actually change the lyrics. And the new lyrics are not as good!

I love "Radioland", ' Turn the dial with your hand/ till you find the shortwave band', though it's really the hesitant, somehow sad, way Florian sings the second line and how 'band' comes out as 'bant'.

This is the version I mean, Tom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBTn_3DBYo

What I loved about the original was the ambivalence, that it really captured that "Our Friend The Atom" idea of with great power comes great responsibility, anything that brings such benefits can bring such terrible consequences if not used wisely, but it's implied and understated, not spelled out. While this new "improved" version is just NUCLEAR POWER IS BAD FOR YOU, KIDS. DO NOT PLAY WITH NUCLEAR POWER STATIONS in a really obvious and heavy-handed way that completely ruins the melancholy mood of the original song.

Also, I do not like how much the new Muzikarbeiters in the middle move and bop about. It looks undignified.

i find "Europa Endlos" more mellifluous than it's Englishing tbh, totally agree about the awesomeness of "Schaufensterpuppen" tho

obv "Spiegelsaal" is a better word than the English verzh too

I love the word "Schaufensterpuppen" but Hütter just sounds far, far, far too hammy on the German version. It's nowhere near as creepy as when he sings it in English.

i haven't listened to the English verzh for ages! he does get a bit manic in Deutsch i guess, but the noun itself sounds extra sinister so it's swings and roundabouts

He sings it like a Doctor Who villain in German! It's creepier in English where he just sounds like he's reading the news (or, better yet, he is saying it as dispassionately as an actual dummy might speak.)

So, which albums have separate language editions?

Obviously not the first four..

'Pocket Calculator' and 'The Model' sound better to me in English

Have you heard the Italian version of 'Pocket Calculator'? It's awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0DCoC8TWkk

Oh yeah, I've heard that, and it is indeed awesome!

I agree that 'Hall of Mirrors' sounds better in German - the chorus sounds a little bit more casual and laid-back when sung in German compared to the English version. Well, to me at least!

They all look so awkward (but especially Ralf) I just want to hug them TBH.

Euphemism alert

Man, they look so fuckin' smart in that clip with those all-black outfits. Cool as fuck.

i find "Europa Endlos" more mellifluous than it's Englishing tbh

me too, and the extra syllable in german also works better in opinion

myyyyyyyy

To be honest my absolute favourite thing about that Italian video is them all saying their names. Didn't know Karl and Wolfgang could actually speak (or indeed were allowed to!)

Germans and their rolling Rs man. In German R seems to add an extra syllable to every word.

Karl sings "The Telephone Call"!

My favorite thing is Flur's calculator which (I think) says "KRAFTWERK" on the display - hah!

There's some great post-Kraftwerk interviews on Youtube from Karl & Wolfgang, particularly when they talk about what happened post-Computer World with Electric Cafe and The Mix. Basically, from what I gather, Ralf & Florian were so keen to keep up to date with current technology that they found themselves in a position where technology was moving faster than they could learn to use it and work with it, so every time they started working on something, a new piece of kit would come out and they'd end up retooling everything.

There's a moment on one Wolfgang interview that I saw where he's all like: "They bought a Synclavier! My god! *facepalm* Do you know what that is? The manual is as thick as a telephone book and Ralf & Florian aren't fast learners!"

Saw another interview with Karl where he recalls "doing a lot of work" on Techno Pop from 1981 up to 1984, and apparently the album was all finished up and mixed before Ralf & Florian decided to scrap it and start again. From the sounds of it, however, rather than scrap it, they just worked with the existing material and changed around and added and stripped away things until they got to Electric Cafe as it sounds now.

I wanted to mention Techno Pop in that "lost or unfinished albums" thread but there wasn't really any lost material was there?

Karl sings "The Telephone Call"!

Yup, and he co-wrote the music on every track on The Man Machine, Computer World and Electric Cafe. He contributed far more musical ideas to Kraftwerk than people think.

'The Telephone Call' is by far my favourite track on Electric Cafe.

I wanted to mention Techno Pop in that "lost or unfinished albums" thread but there wasn't really any lost material was there?

― frogbs, Thursday, August 13, 2015 5:56 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No, there isn't - all the material that they wrote for Techno Pop ended up on Electric Cafe, it was more the actual production of the record that they ended up getting stuck on rather than the writing!

I should probably watch those interviews but I've been avoiding them (mostly for more NEUwerk live stuff) because they do seem quite embittered towards the other two - albeit fair enough, with good reason.

Have been trying to work out who played what bits from live videos - it does seem like originally Florian played on the leads on the synth-flute but as time goes on Karl was moving from counter-melodies and basslines to playing the backbones of the songs.

I know Karl and Wolfgang have worked together since, it I keep waiting for the twist ending where Florian joins in and they pull a Sugababes on Ralf.

But do you think there's any truth to the rumour that Florian isn't legally *allowed* to make music without Ralf, or is he just not that interested in making music any more.

I'm sorry, I just really don't like The Telephone Call. It sounds like bad New Order. Which is, y'know... I expect New Order to be biting Kraftwerk not vice versa. It makes sense that they were struggling with the technology because that is the only Kraftwerk record that has ever sounded *badly produced* and they are a band I think of as exceptional at production.

that leaked demo of Techno Pop is significantly different from the version on Electric Cafe though with different melodies (that final arpeggio section is so pretty!), I'd consider the original Technopop album one of those lost albums if it was all like that - not that we'll ever find out :/

I guess "do you have more patience with the rougher ends of early Kraftwerk or later Kraftwerk?" is a more salient question than "do you prefer German or English" but that's another thread.

I should probably watch those interviews but I've been avoiding them (mostly for more NEUwerk live stuff) because they do seem quite embittered towards the other two - albeit fair enough, with good reason.

Wolfgang comes across as being particularly embittered with Ralf & Florian, although having said that he seems to have some fond memories of his time with Kraftwerk. Karl tends to speak of his time in Kraftwerk with a lot of fondness, but the impression that I get is that he doesn't want the fact that he was in Kraftwerk to overwhelm whatever projects he's worked on/is working on afterwards. He'd rather talk about what he's doing now, rather than go over Kraftwerk stuff, which is fair enough.

But do you think there's any truth to the rumour that Florian isn't legally *allowed* to make music without Ralf, or is he just not that interested in making music any more.

It's very difficult to say, given how private Ralf & Florian tend to be!

I'm sorry, I just really don't like The Telephone Call. It sounds like bad New Order. Which is, y'know... I expect New Order to be biting Kraftwerk not vice versa.

I definitely hear the New Order thing, but for me, melodically, 'The Telephone Call' seems to be cut from the same cloth as 'Computer Love', just with then-contemporary gear.

Supposedly Ralf disliked Karl's vocal on "Telephone Call.", thought it was too emotional.

the german vocal is better, I wonder which he meant, maybe both

Ralf OTM tbh.

I can never decide whether I like the German version of 'The Telephone Call' more than the English one, but if Ralf disliked Karl's vocal on it for that reason, then I find that a bit odd - the German versions of 'Computer Love', 'Neon Lights' and 'Europe Endless' come across to me as more emotional!

"Telephone Call" rules - its my favorite cut on Electric Cafe

Xposts ah, I thought we'd done the 'do you have more patience with the rougher ends', maybe this is it..

taking sides: early Kraftwerk vs late Kraftwerk

I enjoy Kraftwerk, Kraftwerk II and Ralf and Florian, but seldom listen to them front-to-back like I do with the albums from Autobahn through to Computer World/Electric Cafe. When it comes to those records, I usually like to listen to selected tracks rather than the albums in full.

'Ruckzuck' is, and will always remain, all-time for me.

Does anyone have a link to the leaked demo version of Telephone Call? Is it on YouTube? I might like it better if the production were different.

yeah, I know early Kraftwerk v late Kraftwerk is kind of a thing. TBH, the early stuff was my way in to them. (I had a very bad experience with a friend's boyfriend forcing Computer World on me in about 1989, while I was working as a fingerprint analyst, and he was trying to be all "this is your world, you should love it" when really I was "this is my job, I fucking hate it" and just really couldn't get with it, and didn't gel with Kraftwerk for years.)

So it was the Krautrocky, Kosmische stuff, where I heard Ruckzuck and Tanzmusik at Kosmische clubs, in context with Can and NEU! and I thought that stuff was brilliant, and then slowly working my boundaries forward, understanding each album as they progress and getting to grips with it. And now I *love* Computer World for the exact same reasons I hated it in 1989. (My old band were going to do a cover from it, but we argued too much over which track.)

But Electric Cafe is the first one that has not transformed from "IDGI" to "I love this more than life itself!" with repeated listens, like the others did over the years. Maybe I should try listening to it in German.

I still listen to Ralf und Florian a *lot*, it's one of my default writing musics. It's just such a beautiful suite of music, I think that is really the most balanced between early NOIZE Kraftwerk and what they were to become. I need to dig out K2 but I seem to have lost it. I could have sworn I also had a ton of live tracks as NEUwerk which someone - Cosmic Slop? Tom D? - sent me but seem to have got stranded on a computer I no longer own.

So I thought we'd done a Kraftwerk Studio Albums poll, but it looks like we haven't?

(I did find this artefact of a better time, tho: Kraftwerk: The Sexiest Band in the World )

I guess I did the poll on Twitter but not here. (TEE won on Twitter, by a nose)

(Also found the thread where the K4 tracks were posted, but of course the YSI is long gone.)

I can sort out the K4 tracks, yr old email the same?

Yeah it's the Yahoo one with my former screen name. Cheers, Mark I appreciate it.

Could I jump in and ask for the tracks too? ilxmail should work.

I haven't really listened to Electric Café all that much, I think I have a thing where I just go "well, why not listen to this GREAT record by the band you like instead of keeping on trying with this other one that didn't grab you?" I guess it's a failing on my part.

I only heard it a few times but I remember thinking "Tour de France Soundtracks" was better than "Electric Cafe".

Are the Tour de France Soundtracks bad and hated? I actually really quite enjoy it. I was so happy when I found a 7-minute mix of Aerodynamik but really what I want is a 22 minute version of it.

Controversial opinion maybe: Kraftwerk in French is the most adorable Kraftwerk.

Sure things, pm me yr email(s) and I'll put a package together of goodies..

So I thought we'd done a Kraftwerk Studio Albums poll, but it looks like we haven't?

Yeah, this has been done already as you'd expect! Computer World won.

Best Kraftwerk Album