These guys are gods (part II)

see that's rudolph grey on guitar, arthur doyle blowing it on sax (and the unseen flute. flutes r cool now!) and then beaver harris in drums. I'm off to bed now.

the first 'gods' thread is elsewhere.

and these too:

http://pages.ripco.net/~nailhead/nyc_images/ von_and_james_nyc.jpg

von lmo and james chance (or white or black or . . .)

I have expressed my opinion of Arthur Doyle elsewhere on this board.

That Blue Humans record is indeed excellent. Picked up a sealed copy of it at Downtown Music Gallery in NYC a month ago for $6.99.

''I have expressed my opinion of Arthur Doyle elsewhere on this board.''

Couldn't find it on ILM search. can you restate your opinion here.

''That Blue Humans record is indeed excellent. Picked up a sealed copy of it at Downtown Music Gallery in NYC a month ago for $6.99.''

Got hold of it recently too. it is a very fine rec indeed!

Opinion restated: He's a nut and a fraud.

anybody with the name Beaver is tops in my book

Something about that 1999 photo just screams midlife crisis.

Opinion restated: He's a nut and a fraud.

But a far more interesting nut/fraud than, say, most pop "musicians."

Essential Doyle listening: Alabama Feeling, Noah Howard's Black Ark, Milford Graves' Babi Music.

Sorry, I can't buy that. A nut making nonsensical noises is actually MORE annoying to me in a free jazz setting where he can only serve to give comfort to those who would argue that free jazz fans look only for cheap thrills and no real musical content than in a pop setting where unexpected sounds can actually surprise. That is, "Paralyzed" by the Legendary Stardust Cowboy = good, Alabama Feeling = bad.

''Opinion restated: He's a nut and a fraud.''

what's the reasoning here (abt the fraud bit, he may be a nut, though he sounded sane in that wire interview, in fact the only thing demented abt doyle is his blowing on the sax).

has anyone heard the mizutani (raliizes guitarist), doyle/toyozumi show (on a bootleg) (in tokyo, nov 1997).

''Sorry, I can't buy that. A nut making nonsensical noises is actually MORE annoying to me in a free jazz setting where he can only serve to give comfort to those who would argue that free jazz fans look only for cheap thrills and no real musical content''

so it's no good unless you can trancribe solos!!! must everything be logical and 'musical'.

VON LMO is the only guy offered on this thread worth a damn.

''VON LMO is the only guy offered on this thread worth a damn.''

any recommendations? (though i completely disagree with the above line of course).

So who's the nutty guy playing with Bill Clinton?

Oops. The photo even says James Chance. So much for the joke.

Did I say that, Julio? I don't recall saying that. 'cause I didn't say that. There is music that pushes the boundaries of what is listenable, and their is nonsensical noise. The difference isn't notation. Sometimes the two sound alike -- but, damn it, there's a difference that you can hear.

Re-read that Wire interview, Julio. There are plenty of clues (of fraudulance and insanity) there.

i've got a von lmo sticker on my drums!

''There is music that pushes the boundaries of what is listenable, and their is nonsensical noise.''

this 'nonsensical' noise is actually very listenable to me because I found the rec quite organised actually.

''Sometimes the two sound alike -- but, damn it, there's a difference that you can hear.''

yeah there is. Sometimes this music isn't well executed and you can hear it. But in don't think it would apply on this occasion.

haven't got that issue w/me as it is back home. but even if he is insane i don't see why that would my opinion of his playing.

VON LMO rec - "Future Language" though I have no idea how available it is. The record used to be ridiculously rare but maybe it's been reissued.

Nonsensical noise? Maybe that applies to some of Doyle's "solo" work, but his LPs with bands (esp. ones with other leaders like Noah Howard or Milford Graves, which I'm assuming you haven't heard) are not "nonsensical" nor "noise." Try listening again.

Oh, it sounds like Magma meets Devo, or something.

Person who first introduced me to the Blue Humans - Tom 'Mr Pop' Ewing!

I don't have the alb in question, but Beaver Harris is always worth hearing, imho - I love his playing on that Ayler Greenwich Village rec. As I said somewhere else, I'm also a bit of a Doyle sceptic - not that I think there's anything wrong w/ 'nonsense noize' or whatever - I'm just going by that one rub Estatic Peace disc I bought (and quickly sold.)

My fave Blue Humans line-up - Rudolph Grey, Alan Licht and Tom Surgal, as heard on the T. Moore produced 'Clear to Higher Time'. And the Grey solo rec 'Mask of Light', w/ Licht, Jim Sauter and Rashied Ali, is also pretty special.

My fave Blue Humans line-up - Rudolph Grey, Alan Licht and Tom Surgal, as heard on the T. Moore produced 'Clear to Higher Time'. And the Grey solo rec 'Mask of Light', w/ Licht, Jim Sauter and Rashied Ali, is also pretty special.

Would like to hear both of those, but I haven't come across them.

Beaver Harris (R.I.P.) was awesome. Unfortunately I can't remember the names of some other good stuff he played on, but that live Ayler thing is great. Oh, also he's on Ayler's Live Lorrach/Germany and Paris/France, 1966 LP + EP that hat ART issued in the 1980s, which is a pretty stunning document.

''My fave Blue Humans line-up - Rudolph Grey, Alan Licht and Tom Surgal, as heard on the T. Moore produced 'Clear to Higher Time'. And the Grey solo rec 'Mask of Light', w/ Licht, Jim Sauter and Rashied Ali, is also pretty special.''

andrew- yeah those are really good recs. 'Clear to higher' is more of a one-off (two guitars plus drummer). Put i really enjoy the interplay between the two guitarists. Mask of light is quite amazing too though if ound the studio stuff a bit of a turn off. Afetr mask of light (35 min long track) the studio produced stuff doesn't quite match those peaks. Also search 'incadescence'. My first blue humans rec. A 23-minute wonder w/ sauter, grey and beaver harris who is again in mind blowing form. Recorded live at CBGBs in '88.

there's also 'to higher time' (live CD w/grey, licht and surgal, only 12 mins). I'm getting that today off a guy I've met from the drone on music group. will report on it.

must add 'live in london 1994'. That's grey w/two drummers (charles gayle (the saxophonist is found on percussion this time) and tom surgal. two lenghty tracks which are worth your time (especially the first one).

Julio you might like The Flying Luttenbachers.

i thought it was clinton as well. nice that clinton's presidential library is going to look like a trailer(double wide).

of von lmo:

future language was reissued a couple of years ago by Flemish Masters, a label associated with Weasel Walter of the Flying Luttenbachers. future language was just just reissued again this month by Munster in Spain.

tracer- cheers, i'll get round to checking one of their records.

And in light of what Jack has said future language will have to be tracked down.

thanks y'all!

hstencil: You assume incorrectly, but I won't go so far as to say that Doyle ruins everything he touches. He's played on some very good records -- then again, so has Frank Zappa. I've even listened to him play with Blue Humans and liked what I heard -- but title a thread "These Guys are Gods" when at least ONE of "these guys" is a lucky bystander, and you'll get a reaction. Sometimes the voices in yer head are glimpses of the divine, and some times it's just the chemicals talking.

Wanna guess my position on Charles Gayle?

hey you know that story cecil taylor tells, of this time early in the "out" when he was playing, forget who with, and this unknown guy stepped up out the audience and joined in, on his own bass (WHICH HE JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE BROUGHT WITH HIM), and ct says, well, he had no chops really and was just kinda fucking around at random, and then he kind of HIT a thing and was on it and even more out there than ct and fellows, and it was happening, and then the set ended and mr bassman stepped back out into the night and no one ever saw him or heard of him again

well, DO YOU THINK THE STORY'S TRUE? or is it one of ct's deadpan do-you-see gags?

That man was my father, Mark.

But seriously -- the story probably isn't true, but could and should have been. If the intention of the group is sincere, and folks are really searching in areas that aren't easily articulated, that group intention can bring the individual players above what they're normally capable of, even if they're hacks and frauds.

And as proof that the gods aren't guys but are listening (or that WFMU djs read ilx), I just heard some of Noah Howard's "Black Ark" on the radio, and it sounds very lovely and alive, not insane. Arthur Doyle was privileged to be on that session, and he rose to the occasion.

Donald Ayler, Reynols, blah blah blah.

arthur doyle is crazy. everyone knows crazy people cant make good music.

"Grey solo rec 'Mask of Light', w/ Licht, Jim Sauter and Rashied Ali, is also pretty special."

the 35 min. track is very more-ish, and it's live with sensible post production -- bute that's only Sauter and Ali though (imho) carrying Grey

i tracked down a cheap re-issue cd of it on "new alliance" via the gemm used cd search engine, $6.99

Wow, Jack, I responded to you before you responded to me! Isn't that cool? Deliberate misreadings of my posts make me look psychic!

Haha Julio, I just listened to 'Mask of Light' again and the last track sounds like 'LA Blues' by the Stooges.

Dunno abt Sauter/Ali 'carrying' Grey - he's listed as the 'composer' and all - but Ali sure is driving the sesh. Maybe the rest of 'em felt they had to defer to him or something...

well, if i had to rate them in order I'd say Live NY 1980 and incadescence would be my top two.

In the mask of light track Grey stands back (damn it i don't have that rec with me so i can't confirm this: another three weeks to go before I'm home again) a bit but he's still does enough to make his presence felt.

Ali definetely doesn't keep quiet but i felt/heard the guitar and sax so together that at times I couldn't distinguish between them. Maybe it was all sauter! (but i can't remember).

Got hold of 'to higher time (live)' yesterday. That's an 11-minute piece recorded at CBGBs. grey and licht are on very good form here. I got it at a EP price and it's worth it at that.

''well, DO YOU THINK THE STORY'S TRUE? or is it one of ct's deadpan do-you-see gags?''

Once i read that i thought 'it's a great story who cares if it's true or not'.

''Haha Julio, I just listened to 'Mask of Light' again and the last track sounds like 'LA Blues' by the Stooges.''

so that's what it was andrew! I actually only heard it twice. whenever I've played mask of light I would only play the first and not bother with the other two. Will have to check this now.

but title a thread "These Guys are Gods" when at least ONE of "these guys" is a lucky bystander, and you'll get a reaction.

Well, since I didn't title the thread, or even post it, why don't you take it up with the person who did? I never claimed Doyle was a god, or even not-crazy (although it doesn't matter to me whether he is or not), I'll only claim that I like a lot of his music. So fuck off already, chump.

I win! I WIN!!!!

You didn't win shit.

I win SOME MORE!!!!

*yawn*

if you look up ILM search there is a thread called 'these guys are gods' which is on captain beffheart and the magic band. this had a pic of magic band circa TMR. Since i wuv both I thought 'why not?' and even though doyle might be a fraud it didn't sound like it from Live NY1980. So there!

It's a good thing Colin came up w/the 'fraud' view though. It has made for a good discussion (andrew and george have also come in). i remember when i did a thread abt fushitsusha there was only one reply (it was revived so there's now 30 or so). we also got on to toher bands so it's been very useful.

Thanks, Julio. Also want to clarify one thing -- mental illness isn't necessarily a bad thing, and doesn't necessarily stop anyone from being a creative artist. And what I refer to as Mr. Doyle's mental illness would be (and has been) referred to others as criminality or evil. That's all.

Oh, and Charles Gayle? Love him! Surprise!!

"referred to others" = "referred to by others". Screw my coyness -- he's a rapist.

as if liking his music has anything to do with condoning rape, his or otherwise.

No, you goof, not "as if". I mean his music sounds to me like a lie, like he's selling something. In a group context where he's not the leader and he's working with people who make him play the truth, he sounds better. And I didn't like his own stuff before I heard anything about his biography, because it sounded disorded and dishonest. You wanna love his music, go ahead. Folks I respect very much do too.

I mean his music sounds to me like a lie, like he's selling something.

That's your problem, isn't it? You sound really confused, like you're trying every angle possible to dismiss his music, but when it comes down to it you just don't like it. Why not just say that? Lots of musicians, jazz or otherwise, have done lots of really horrible things and are crappy people, but I don't see you bringing anyone else's major mistakes into any other discussion.

You have reading comprehension problems. I ignore you now.

No, I don't. You just can't make a clear point, and I'm calling you on it.

*silence*

You owe me money.

fuck! the lawyers are here. run! run for your lives.

Hands off my wallet, Counselor, that was a visual depiction of silence, not "actual" "silence".

Sounds like another band that might have had a top 4003 hit then!

Thanks for pointing that out Calum. I'll be sure to buy only chart topping free jazz albs from now on. Can I consult w/ you if the rec shop staff don't have sales figures to hand?

what a fucking capitalist scumbag! must everything be a 'hit' to be valid.

Oh stop taking me so seriously. I was but joking. Skullflower though Julio, I mean really...

But skullflower... I mean REALLY. I know for a fact Stephen Thrower is a twat with a capital T.

i am joking too calum (I don't know you). it doesn't matter if all of the members of skullflower are twats. they were good, which is the only thing of importance.

Have you actually read any of his film criticism? I mean... REALLY Julio, Skullflower???

i didn't know thrower did film criticism. I know stefan Jaworzyn has written on music (and film, I think). i've read one or two things from his music criticism and they are OK.

I DO have one question for you - what do you think of Black Box Recorder? Been contemplating buying The Facts of Life but want to know if it's all 'speaking for the verses with a cool chorus and back to speaking again' if you get my drift... (the stuff I've heard of theirs tends to be like this that's all).

Actually many would say that Thrower doesn't 'do' film criticism. He rants about any movie where women are sexually mutilated though. Weirdo.

well calum- a lot of ppl in bands have a very diff 'worldview' shall we say...i'll reserve judgement until I actually come across one of his reviews (if ever).

I have heard of back box recorder but have nevah actually heard them so i can't comment.

SJ is an utter charmer in person but wld have you for breakfast in print Calum. His horror mag 'Shock Xpress' was, at its best, the genre equiv of Forced Exposure.

Thrower is a useless critic who reads as if he has done the odd film studies course (takes one to spot one haha) and then rather mechanically applied 'theory' to any number of frankly not v. interesting gore pics.

Couldn't agree more about Shock Xpress Andrew - a brilliant zine which boasted some great writing talent (including a young Kim Newman). Thrower does indeed read like a dodgy film studies student. I despise his writing with a passion as well as his 'morals' which I find revolting.

i do receive Jaworzyn's scum list (hasn't sent one for a while though) but his one-liners are quite funny. There was also some liner notes he wrote on a cosmanauts hail satan alb which were hilarious.

does anyone know if shock xpress is still available? (maybe i should ask him...).

i reckon the flying luttenbachers is better