RJD2 vs. DJ Shadow - you knew it was coming

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... or rather, Deadringer vs. The Private Press ... for me, it's the former hands down. granted, RJD2 has the advantage of not having to overcome the sophomore blues, so his stuff sounds fresher by default. but i'll be damned if it isn't still 20x fresher than the Shadow album, and among the most amazing instrumental-or-not hip-hop i've heard. it's important to note, though, that (with one exception) he isn't really trying to do what Shadow's been doing. RJD2 seems to genuinely speak (as in, using musical elements as 'words' or 'choruses' to articulate sonic ideas) with his beats; they move and evolve fluidly and unexpectedly, and it always sounds right. i think he really raises the bar for expressing oneself through this particular brand of breakbeat and otherwise boom-bap. my only beef: no "Rain". but this seems endlessly listenable (went straight through it 3x today; it got better each time) and certainly top 5 of the year material. Shadow? heavy-handed cop-out approach to a followup.

― ryan, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's a little soon for this matchup just yet - it's like asking Adam Dunn vs. Frank Thomas, but in terms of Dead Ringer vs. Private Press it's the former hands down. And I enjoy "Let the Good Times Roll" as much as anything in Shadow's oeuvre.

― J Blount, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Apologies for the use of the word "oeuvre".

― J Blount, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

While I was shoppin' for old 12" singles at this used vinyl place in Vancouver.. called Otis, the guy was playing that very first DJ Shadow record "Endtroducing".. and I literally almost fell asleep while shopping. The first few and the last few songs are nice.. but as for the rest, WHAT THE FUCK WAS I THINKING? Jesus... Tortoise would have to TRY to be this narcoleptic. Is "The Private Press" in the same vein?

― donut bitch, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Argh.

Listen, I really like Private Press and I seem to be in the minority when I say "sophomore jinx my ass, which as you will notice is currently shaking madly to 'GDMFSOB'". RDJ2 seems to be a more basic approach to the whole instrumental rap thing and sounds a lot less obtuse and dramatic for the most part -- actually, it seems to me like what Moby's 18 could have been if Moby didn't have some sort of severe creative implosion. Compared to either of Shadow's albums the highs are not quite as high but the lulls aren't as bad (not like I find too many lulls on TPP but hey). I am also baffled by the appearance of that one MC "Motamouth" (?) who has some guest appearance rapping about how shit abstract rap is and how he keeps it "raw". Well that's fine and all but how did he manage to find his way onto a Def Jux album?

― Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also note that I'm not sure how much of an impact Dead Ringer could have on me when I keep fucking up the name of the guy who made it.

― Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

love

― haitm tantush, Tuesday, 23 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I haven't heard RJD2, but The Private Press is quite obviously superior to Endtroducing, and I'm tired of reading reviews of the former that use the same cut-and-paste template (them: "where's the innovation? me: "go back and listen to "You Can't Go Home Again" properly, foo!"), as if the (former) "importance" of DJ Shadow means stating an original opinion is inappropriate.

― Tim, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's no way Private Press can eclipse Endtroducing - and its not just cos of 'sophomore blues'. I dont think Shadow intended to better it or even equal it - Private Press is just his latest album and thats that. My only criticism of Private Press is many of the tracks do not do enough - You Cant Go Home Again is nice but perhaps too sparse or predictable? I expect him to put another one out in a year or two that may put things in better perspective...

As for RJD2 - i have yet to hear him but the talk on this forum about him is such that i am gonna have to investigate. I really rated the Prefuse 73 album from last year and I thought he came close to matching Shadow there with a very similar piece of work tho more raw/minimal/abstract even. Req is another act that may be worth considering here.

― , Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the Private Press has it's dull moments, but on the whole it holds my attention far more than Endtroducing does. The Gift of Gab collaboration is the perfect soundtrack to a cartoon racing game.

Who is this RJD2 of which you speak?

― Matt DC, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

>>>>> RJD2 operates on Definitive Jux label.

― DJ Martian, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Dammit I really shouldve got the limited edition copy of The Private Press. ANy chance of a copy Matt?

steve ;)

― , Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"You Cant Go Home Again is nice but perhaps too sparse"

!!!

― Tim, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

go with nate. I'll concede rj has that fresher, more immediate fizz that makes shadow-wheezers (and feelin' cheated ones at that) go "yum" but boy does it get tired quickly... I couldn't ever say the same for shadow music. not that it never gets boring but it's a different, personal kind of boredom as opposed to rj's universal "old nostalgia job done good" yawn. hmm. I felt kind of lame for ever liking it after awhile.

and in this context, isn't "dead ringer" the PERFECT title?

― bob zemko, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm downloading 'Dead Ringer' now and i'm liking it a lot on first impressions - and according to amazon its released next Monday - woo! they compare him more to The Avalanches rather than Shadow which is interesting...

are you guys into Anti Pop Consortium? - abstract as fuck but with wicked lyrics over the top. and they have 3 albums out (including a japanese import)...if you like Cannibal Ox you should dig AntiPop...esp. love 'Disorientation' which was featured on the old Gilles peterson Journeys by Dj compilation but was credited just to the rapper Priest back then. Also check out the LFO 'Fat Rik Waller' mix of new single Ghost Lawns!

― , Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Old nostalgia job done good" is apt. It's actually all the Moby-ish revisit the old-soul kind of thing that detracts from my listening experience here. Also a lot of people listen to this stuff and go "oh he made all these drum solos out of samples" and get bent on this extra technical appreciation tip rather than just hearing what's actually there (a drum solo). It's a fun record that will win points for taking itself less seriously than Shadow's work but I don't see how it one-ups the sampling game.

As for the Avalanches comparison, they have a wider sample-perimeter and a shorter attention span. Dead Ringer is not this year's Since I left you.

― Honda, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nate & bob & honda - i definitely see where you're coming from, but i'm worried that people are listening to this record expecting their sensibilites to be turned inside out and hearing instead stuff that's clearly rooted in traditional hip-hop rhythms and sounds, and immediately dismissing it as ... 'less'. maybe it needs to be approached in a more traditional head-nod context, then - i treat it more as a collection of instrumental hip-hop beats rather than as some revelatory sample 'statement', and with that framework in mind, it seems to do a lot more musically than The Private Press (to me, of course). re: the Avalanches comparison, doesn't seem all that relevant; as for Moby, it's interesting that RJD2 has actually stated that he's trying to do what Moby does - only he hates Moby's music and obviously does it 10x better. the review at Hiphopsite mentioned that upon hearing it, ?uestlove said that "this was what Moby's record should've sounded like" - so i don't think there's something inherently wrong with the soul + hip-hop formula (sad that it's been stigmatized by Play and 18). if anything, Deadringer shows that it can be done with flair and to great effect. again, i'd give it more listens before dismissing it for sounding too 'familiar' on the surface.

― ryan, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

oh, and about The Private Press -- yeah, the sophomore thing is an irritating cliche, but for me it definitely rings true in this case. this doesn't affect me nearly as much as Endtroducing for a number of reasons, one of which being that Shadow sounds like he's resorting to making sample 'narratives' rather than dope sample 'music' that stands on its own. i dunno, it just comes off as ... tired? boring? PS - how do i insert paragraph breaks??

― ryan, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the review at Hiphopsite mentioned that upon hearing it, ?uestlove said that "this was what Moby's record should've sounded like"

Holy shit, me and ?uestlove are on the same page here (see my above post)
Come to think of it, I decided a little while ago and maybe forgot to mention due to the Moby analogy that Dead Ringer is actually the best possible Herbaliser album imaginable (note: I really liked Very Mercenary and still do to a somewhat lesser extent). Not in structure of course (RJD2 does not use live bass etc.), but in atmosphere.

― Nate Patrin, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I talked to RJ about this in an interview last week. He said he was pretty bummed out after first hearing Play because he felt like it was a watered-down version of the formula he thought he had tapped into. All in all, a pretty gutsy thing to admit, especially considering where they're both coming from.

I loved The Private Press (much moreso after seeing it live), but I think Dead Ringer absolutely blows it out of the water.

― Mark, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought about this album as the-best-possible Herbaliser album as well actually. I do think it's a nice piece of work as an instrumental hip hop album (without any pretense towards sample 'statements') but a good deal of people talk as if it's a miracle or something. The album's feel correlates really strongly with the underground hip hop crowd's sensibilities which is why it's being treated as such. It helps that it's more musical than "abstract" but ultimately it's more or less a new flavor added to the Shadow/Krush/Vadim/Cam headnod-axis.

― Honda, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

okay, I've given both LPs several spins now, and have come to the exact opposite conclusion to ryan in the qn.

"Deadringer" is pleasant enough, but I can't get past the samples. It's funny that people rag on Shadow fans for obsessing over the source of each sound, and then going out to hunt down the records (see The Wire review of 'Private Press' for example). That's exactly how I feel about 'Deadringer' - I'm sitting there going "ooh, I wonder what this is?" or "bah, Steve Reich, what a cop out!". Whereas I never feel that way about Shadow. Of course, none of this would matter a damn if "Deadringer" was either beautiful or surprising: occasionally it achieves the former - the hidden track at the end in particular is stunning - but the LP drags terribly in the middle, it needs the raps to maintain any sort of freshness. I'll take ryan's word for it about the 'beats' (beats don't really interest me TBH).

'The Private Press' on the other hand gets better with every play. "Six Days" and "You Can't Go Home Again" are terrific (hey, a sticker on the CD case that tells you something useful for once!). And yes it is far superior to 'Endtroducing' (that slowed-down cardboard-box drum sound just irritates me now). This whole "first album - second album" thing is pretty silly tho'. Leaving aside the fact that Shadow's done a lot of things in between the two releases, I always thought of 'What Does Your Soul Look Like?' as the definitive early statement, and 'Endtroducing' as the flop sophomore effort/re-tread ;-)

― Jeff W, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"'The Private Press' on the other hand gets better with every play. "Six Days" and "You Can't Go Home Again" are terrific"

Jeff you are my hero!

― Tim, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"In/Flux" was the definitive early statement. It's all downhill from there ;)

More seriously, my reasons for disliking "Private Press" (tho I need to listen to it again) have nothing to do with "Entroducing," and everything to do with the weak retreads and baroque miserablism.

― Ben Williams, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'Baroque miserabilism' = a sign of greatness!

I finally heard the RJD2 album the other day...it's okay, but sorta snoozy. I got the feeling that if it came out in 1995 most would consider it an instrumental mix from some band in Portishead's wake.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"beats don't really interest me TBH"

no offense but um ... this is kinda like trying to critique a Sonic Youth album and saying that you aren't interested in guitars. or something.

i really think The Private Press is way inferior to Endtroducing. the latter takes me to another place, while the former sounds like it's self-consciously trying to (re)create that place. it's boring in comparison and all the shiny hi-fi production and nice little details don't add up to much because they don't move like the Endtroducing material. "baroque miserabilism" is a pretty apt description, and i think it gives Shadow this veneer of seriousness that RJD2 doesn't need -- it's already evident he's trying to do something sublime with his music.

― ryan, Sunday, 11 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"you can't go home again" IS very nice, though.

― ryan, Sunday, 11 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree with Ned re "baroque miserablism" being a good thing. I like the over-the-top drama of the album because it gives it an edge of camp which singlehandedly distinguishes it from every other worthy instrumental hip hop album ever.

― Tim, Sunday, 11 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What about "Cannibal Oxstrumentals"? (hint: it's better than both RJD2 and Shadow). Also, while I really like the aforementioned "Private Press" tracks, doesn't anyone else find the use of samples on the record a bit quaint? - like the stack of mix- tapes on the inside cover. Sometimes it seems like he's a teenager in his bedroom in 1991 going through his parents vinyl trying to find cool bits of soul singers talking (and make no mistake, DJ Shadow looks quite a bit like an overgrown teenager - it's like he's pretending Fred Durst never happened). Maybe it's earnestness obviates and confounds it's lack of irony. The first track on the RJD2 record is quite good too, I heard it played LOUD while shopping at Amoeba yesterday and actually went to the info desk only to realize that I already "own" it.

But let's not talk crazy here and compare these to the all conquering "Since I Left You."

― Spencer Chow, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"it's like he's pretending Fred Durst never happened."

Christ, can you blame him?

― Nate Patrin, Tuesday, 13 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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