floaty = avant-garde

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
why do so many rock bands (and critics and fans haha) seem to think this?

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

and are they right? at all?

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

cf uh radiohead, wilco, others

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

this is a word for the sounds. the little wispy and twirly ones. etc

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i think people are sometimes under the misapprehension that because something was avant garde twenty years ago, doesnt mean it is today.

Jack Cole, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

does that change the effect on yr uneducated wilco listener?

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Cuz it's easier to listen to that really avant-garde stuff? 'Floaty' - music for people who say "I like stuff that makes you think" (unspoken add. "which isn't something I do ordinarily")? I prefer sandwiches (where you can taste everything separately) to stew, but that's just me.

dave q, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the foo fighters song?

jel --, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My music is more experimental then your music. Neener neener, etc.

bnw, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Avant-garde is a nice sounding word whose meaning has become a bit too diffuse. But honestly does anyone really call Wilco that? I don't think they do - the reviews/praise tends to go beautiful songcraft blah blah oh and the production's tasty too.

Tom, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that may be true tom. but it's at least been talked about as some kind of sign of artistic development or artiness. either way my question is the same, basically, what's up with that.

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Well the talking-up I've seen has focussed on the baroque impulse not the a-g one - listen to all the lovely DETAIL in Jim O'Rourke's production. (All reviews of microhouse do this too!). So yes it's a signifier for artiness either way.

What's up with it? Some critics only have four modes of praise: balls- out rock / beautiful songcraft / insightful lyrics / boundary- pushing. You need to hit two of these buttons to be a 'classic'. They wuv the Wilco album but they can't go mad on the balls-out rock or the lyrics so they talk up the boundary-pushing stuff to compliment the beautiful songcraft. Bingo!

Tom, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

now do radiohead. why does so much of kid a sound like it would be plain jane desultory pop songs if not for the post-eno wooshy bits?

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that applies much more to Amnesiac - and it's why it's a good album (pop hooks being treated in quite interesting ways). Kid A feels more like soundscapes/genre exercises with vox on top. In terms of the critics button-pushing, obviously boundary-breaking, also meaningful lyrics (extended to packaging and just the feel of it, man).

Tom, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think dissonant=avant-garde is a more knackered equation.

Tom, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Music press: doesn't write choruses + infrequent use of guitar + added twinkly whooshing noises = avant garde. But the Wilco album doesn't even meet these criteria. Still, it wasn't referred to as A.G that much, people just said it was less of an orthodox rock album. Which is true, to an extent.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Dissonance is more subjective. Avant-garde has a bit more solid fact behind it. (Assuming people are using it in the context of something being new/original.) ((If that was Josh's point I feel bad about my misdirected smart-ass comment above.))

bnw, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

'Dissonance is more subjective' - well actually technically no it isn't

dave q, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I really enjoyed KID A, but it sounded more to me like someone had listened to WARP's entire catalogue. "Kid A" and "Idioteque" sounded to me just like Aphex Twin but more song-based.

Lek Dukagjin, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Re: Josh's question - maybe the issue is that 'avant-garde rock' (and since you're talking about rock fans and critics, this is what you're really talking about, as opposed to 'the avant-garde' per se) is now seen as something which has to occur solely within rock's borders (or it becomes something else, something not rock, something impure). As the defining features of rock are guitars and rock songs, you can either a) do dissonant things with guitars (sonic youth) or make maximalist hyper-detailed rock songs using lots of instruments and floaty sounds (wilco I guess). Living up to the "rock" part of the term is considered important, or perhaps more accurately it's considered a given. That automatically hedges in possibilities, cutting off many potential directions that would compromise the integrity of the genre label.

"(All reviews of microhouse do this too!)"

It's half the point though. Sex and detail, sex and detail...

Tim, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

So microhouse is pointillist, then. ;-)

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

don't worry byron I'm not sure I have one

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

tim, why the restriction on staying inside the genre?

Josh, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Personally, I'm more interested in why a lot of people seem to think that experimental bands are doing whatever they do because they want to "seem smart" or "different". It has been brought up recently in another thread that a lot of indie biases stem from the fact that some people assume everyone must have been into indie at some point -- and I think that kind of attitude affects experimental music from a different angle (that is, an assumption that since you're playing music that seems "different" than indie or pop, then you must be attempting to pull the wool over everyone's eyes).

Also, strictly speaking (I think), avant-garde refers to the artists who are consciously trying to break boundaries aka do stuff which hasn't been done before -- so, some music which seems experimental (like free jazz, for example), may not necessarily be "avant-garde", though it is certainly not mainstream music. In rock, I might classify Biota as being avant-garde, because frankly, I've never heard anyone sound like them before, whereas Boredoms are just a strange rock band. Radiohead too. In the end, it's just tags I guess.

Especially interesting to me about threads like this is that a lot of you folks write more about pop than other kinds of music! It's like finding out what your sister's friends think about you.

dleone, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Personally, I'm more interested in why a lot of people seem to think that experimental bands are doing whatever they do because they want to "seem smart" or "different".

Good bands or peformers that experiment never do so because they want people to think they are smart or different. Seems like that is a tag sometimes placed on bands that like to mess about by people who dislike experimentation because it rubs against ideas of "acceptable popular music structures (be it melody or rhythm, etc)." Then again, if you are doing something not pop, you sort of automatically are transgressive (though, what is transgressive is always changing as what is experimental or avant garde is slowly absorbed by the Pop Overground). It's all the just the flip of prejudices tossed by the underground towards the overground and vice versa -- a snake that will always bites its tail.

one last thought: on wanting to be "different" -- isnt that one of the perogatives of youth (not that it is successful) to desire to shatter the Orthodoxy or at least set oneself apart from it? Its part of establishing one's identity (even if, ironically, many times one ends up just like other members of a subculture).

Jack Cole, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think it has to do peoples need to grasp onto some sort of catigorization to have an opinion. The way something is labeled is going to get different reactions from different people. Some are going to avois it all together while othdrs are going to put fort extra effort of finding it. Selling records and a sound is an art. Using phrases such as Avant-Garde and floaty seems to be selling records so you going to hear them like Lolipalooza in the early 90's.

brg30, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

My brother was in a band called The Avante Gardeners for a while. Yes, they are all cunts.

Nick Southall, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a live Fall recording where a bassist breaks a string.
Mark E. Smith says: "And now we come to the avant-garde section of the show."
bassist: "Because I 'aven't-gart a spare string!"

Keith McD, Wednesday, 24 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"avant garde" is old hat. "snobs only" more like. fuckin hell i mean the wire just had a to live & SHAVE IN l.a. feature and, like they broke up 2 years ago. tortoise have an ennio morricone record and will never be as good as the meters even if they doll themselves up b&w minstrel style (parker excl). cornelius cardew /john cage my arse. privileged spiritual tourists spouting easy brain-pap. HOWEVER - non-floaty does not necessarily guarantee authenticity, validity, relevance or vorticism. for instance the glut of glitch & noise & metal pap available. the worst (and some of the best) of it REEKs of "look at me aren't i shocking" (misabused sexual imagery - OK nothing against sexual imagery but if you can't you back it up with anything more than anti-censorship as a reason - you suck. free speech 'n' all - great - but you suck) THESE BEATS ARE HARD. MY NOISE IS INTOLERABLE YOU PHILISTINES. pre - emptive self defence mechanisms you should have grown out of by age 20.

bob snoom, Thursday, 25 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

one month passes...
HEre is comclusive proof that floaty = avant garde.

http://www.thamesfestival.org/events/events_6.html

Tim (Tim), Friday, 13 September 2002 14:37 (twenty-three years ago)

oops fear my typos but that thing looks like a bunch of fun and I'll be going.

Tim (Tim), Friday, 13 September 2002 14:37 (twenty-three years ago)

haha i shall bring my canon then it will be sinky

DO YOU SEE!! (mark s), Friday, 13 September 2002 14:39 (twenty-three years ago)

"Mid-river, legendary saxophonist Lol Coxhill will converse with the tugboats that gather there"!!

Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 13 September 2002 14:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Living up to the "rock" part of the term is considered important, or perhaps more accurately it's considered a given. That automatically hedges in possibilities, cutting off many potential directions that would compromise the integrity of the genre label.

example: this has always been my gripe with '97-'00 attempts by thee dead c and their gang -- having established a genuine boundary-pushing sound earlier, they then had to live up to the hype, which is hard for anyone anyway-- so they alligned themselves with "improvised" and already-established but different avant-garde music by others, cashing in via name-dropping/confusion, coincidentally-shared distribution and some very unfortunate transparent nepotistic journalism -- this alligned them with others' boundaries they had no hope in hell of making

whether foolish, deliberate, whatever, it disgusted me, an avant-garde enthusiast, that this band, _from_ _my_ _own_ _country_ with it's own magnificent indigenous pedigree, were "passing-off" themselves and their special buddies using this marketing approach -- if they had just said "we're a [rock, ?] band" or even "we're interesting" it would have been OK, but no, they had to allign themselves and mythologise into some part of 20th century music that they themselves decided they belonged to

no -- those new zealand "port people" are just kidding, just having a joke about the scene they "[don't even want to be included in]" -- they live in my back yard so to me this is just an example of this sort of "promotion" that i have witnessed first-hand -- no, i'm just kidding, we're all new zealanders so we're all very cool, especially to each other -- but yes, everybody agrees they're nice guys -- again, just an example from my backyard -- sorry, i don't wish to upset anyone but "non-provincials" do wonder why criticism of local events is so many sacred sheep

it reminded me of Frank Zappa, who initially alligned himself most deliberately with Stravinsky and Varese, but he just copied them, and not being regent or anything more than an operator and having left avant-garde/Varese continuum fans cold, abandoned that angle around the time the first mothers got sick of him

george gosset (gegoss), Saturday, 14 September 2002 06:35 (twenty-three years ago)

This thread was purposely posted while I was in Portugal to avoid MY IRE.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 14 September 2002 07:48 (twenty-three years ago)

FWIW, Josh, you are horribly wrong. And I'd explain, but I'm tired of explaining.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Saturday, 14 September 2002 07:52 (twenty-three years ago)

well I don't know that I believe anything I've said here so I'm not sure I can be wrong about them. I just said... things that I hear people say. I would like to hear something good though.

Josh (Josh), Saturday, 14 September 2002 21:34 (twenty-three years ago)

two years pass...
hey tim did you go to that...what did you see?

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 14 March 2005 13:00 (twenty years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.