raw power: bowie vs iggy mixes

hrm. am i in some strange land? how is may 5th in one day? um, can someone switch that to may 8th or 9th or something? damn it.

I like Bowie's mix because, weird as it is, it sounds like music. The Iggy mix is horrible. All he did was take the faders and jack everything into the red, which you can't do with digital because it clips and distorts and just sounds like staticky shrieking shit. Even turning the volume down to, like, two doesn't make it listenable. I can't believe a major label was willing to flat-out steal people's money that way.

I don't remember which one I have. Bought it in the 2000s. It's pretty loud, I guess

I've only ever heard Iggy's mix TBH. I think I'd actually be interested in hearing a non-overdriven version.

hrm. iggy's was the first mix i got. (actually borrowed it from a library...) i loved it from the moment i put it on (at some pretty insane, neighbor-hating levels). i dunno about the clipping, but i've got no problem with distortion, especially when it comes to albums like this. i didn't hear the bowie mix until several years later, and it just sounded wrong. i've gotten the reissue, listened once, had the same response. i'm going to continue listening, but there's not one version i like better on bowie's mix. i've got nothing but positive thoughts about iggy's mix. i'm trying to figure out what's good about bowie's...

Ok, I found out I have Iggy's mix

I love it.

So Iggy

I'm going to guess that we'll be dividing into camps of people who heard Bowie's first and people who were first exposed to Iggy's. Maybe not, I guess I don't really know people's politics around here wrt mixing. But anyway.
Iggy mix was the first I ever heard. At the time I thought it was the original mix, more or less, you know just with some eq tweaking and noise reduction, which I figured was all they did with remasters. Didn't realize for a long time it was so radically different. I used to stare at the speakers while it played wondering how this album existed. It rules, a lot, and the Bowie mix will probably* always feel anemic and foreign to me.

*(I've only heard a vinyl rip from the internets so, y'know)

Oh wow, this sounds much better!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6r6cagYfrs&feature=related

Listen to the first kick drum in "Penetration" (about 3:33 in the Youtube link). It's a solid, deep kick drum in the link as opposed to muffled static on the 'Iggy mix'. You can actually hear the details of what he does with his voice on that track to an almost intimate level in the mix on the YT. Listen to how badly Iggy's voice clips at 0:56 in "Penetration" on the CD. Unperson OTM.

bowie's mix is bad. iggy's mix is an abortion

i think nick southall would have a heart attack if he heard ppl saying iggy's mix 'delivers on the promise of the albums title'

Yeah, I wasn't saying that the original mix is brilliant, just that it sounds much better than Iggy's, even going by Youtube clips.

Heh, I never really noticed Iggy's Michigan twang before ("A-bam").

and i think i don't know who nick southall is... like i said, iggy's is the first version i got. i had no idea it had been remixed until i read the liners. maybe two or three times into listening to it. it just sounds right to me. unfortunately, it also makes all the other stooges albums sound weak in comparison. (listening to the two singles released in 77, which sorta mimic the overdrive of iggy's mix, also make makes me feel this way.) i love "fun house," but the mix on that makes me feel like it could have been more harsh. i dunno... i like harsh when it comes to music like this. i don't give a shit if it clips or it distorts.

bowie's mix feels like a compromise to me, i guess. i'll have to listen to it more. it's kinda like the casablanca moon vs acnalbasac noom thing with slapp happy. except the faust version was a revelation to me. i'm hoping that bowie's mix will eventually take over my mind, but it hasn't so far.

bowies mix sounds like bowie was on coke; iggys mix sounds like iggy is ok with no dynamic range

had been listening to the original (bowie) version of the album for nearly a decade when the new & improved iggy mix was released. initially dug the iggy mix due to the toughness and harshness praised by others, but it didn't do much to correct the album's real defects (no bass presence, basically) and squashed many of its subtleties. iggy just jammed everything into the red and bumped up the vocals a little, and the latter's the last thing raw power needed. in the long run, i prefer the bowie mix cuz it's more musical and more distinctive. though it's not what i'd choose, i kinda like its fragile, rickety quality and the way it works against the songs & performances - wrongheaded as that might seem. haven't yet heard the remixed/mastered bowie version.

i like harsh when it comes to music like this. i don't give a shit if it clips or it distorts.

Oh, you're only 15? Why didn't you just say so at the outset?

nice. the anonymity of the internet works well for you, doesn't it? i'm sure your 16+ year old ears can't take it anymore.

contenderizer, i think the vocals are ridiculously pumped up on the bowie version. they dominate the mix. so much louder than they need to be. i say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

It's interesting how the Stooges inspired pretty much all ultra-loud music after them when the weren't every sympathetically recorded. I just got the Rhino remix of Fun House, and it's the best sounding Stooges I've heard, lots more detail than the 80s LP I've had for years. But for a band produced by, and apparently adored by, Cale, Bowie and Albini, none of them really figured out how to capture the meaness of Fun House. Anyways, Raw Power transcends production mistakes, 'cause of the songs and the man, and that's more rock and roll than sounding good. Bowie for historical insight.

nice. the anonymity of the internet works well for you, doesn't it? i'm sure your 16+ year old ears can't take it anymore.

― zingzing, Monday, May 3, 2010 2:40 AM (6 hours ago)

dude posted under his real name back in thne day, and pretty much most regulars know who he is, so that doesn't 100% apply here.

Yeah, my identity's no secret; I post links to stuff with my byline all the time. And though couched in a joke, my point is actually a serious one. When I was a teenager I wanted the nastiest, noisiest, hardest, most aggressive thing, whatever it was - I started with Slayer, moved on to Ministry, a million punk rock bands, Borbetomagus or whatever, until finally I was listening to actual computer programs in my Walkman (yes, this was a long time ago) because I just wanted the rawest, most shriekingest noise. Nothing was too loud, too ugly, too painful - I wanted more. The Iggy mix of Raw Power satisfies this same inchoate, adolescent impulse to get more. I'll tell you who I really feel sorry for, is the trained audio engineer who had to sit there in the studio while Iggy pushed all the levels up and nodded, saying, "Yeah, that's what I want," and then had to sign off on that mix when it was delivered to the label.

fine and good then. just remember everyone's not you. i didn't see your "joke" as a hidden story about your pubescent past or as anything other than a petty, childish swipe. happy to know i was wrong. flushing the past as we speak.

i don't see the iggy mix as anywhere near the levels of borbetomagus at their worst/best. that stuff is really shrieking. if given the choice between overdriven, balls-out raw power or limp, meek raw power, i'm going to take the former. people have a lot of negative things (well, usually just the same thing) to say about iggy's mix. but they have little positive to say about bowie's mix. of course, people can talk about whatever they want to talk about, but that's what i'm interested in seeing. if only to give me something to look for in it.

I mentioned a couple of specific positive things.

There is a certain immediate thrill that comes from a recording that's so overdriven that it feels like the speakers are blown. However, with music like this, I find that thrill to be short-lived once I realize that any detail, depth, or dynamic range has been sacrificed. (Artists like Fennesz or Tim Hecker actually use that static/distortion musically, shaping it with dynamics in mind. Not the case here.) The raw power that actually comes from what the musicians are doing - the impact of the drums and bass, the nuances in the vocals - is actually diminished in favour of a cheap effect that anyone could achieve by overdriving any recording.

Still, I suppose one could argue that the immediate excitement of simple digital distortion is a distinct and valid production aesthetic in and of itself.

I like the Bowie mix for a couple of reasons. #1 I'll admit is probably emotional attachment. Besides that, I also like the Bowie mix precisely because of all the things that are 'wrong' about it. It SOUNDS like no other record in the known galaxy [I feel the same way about the 1st Ramones disc.]. The mirky sludge of the rhythm section provides a sweet canvas for the brain-dissolving guitar ejaculations, which are mixed 'wrong' in that they're way too high in the mix. Nonetheless, they are absolutely 'right' because the contrast gives them that sublime face-melting quality that can make me burst out in maniacal laughter to this very day.

that's a good argument for the bowie mix -- the iggy mix to me makes it sound a bit more like a conventional hard rock record, whereas the Bowie makes it sound fucking weird! i mean, there are a lot of great records that have odd production/mixes. One that comes to mind (similar to Raw Power maybe) is White Light White Heat: it's got a weird, utterly singular sound that I wouldn't want changed for the world.

James Williamson's guitar work, especially his soloing, gets completely swallowed by Iggy's mix. For example, the two chords that introduce the chorus of Search And Destroy (DANG DANG.."And I am the world's forgotten boy") are wonderfully crushing on the Bowie mix, but lost in the Iggy mix. The solos are so piercing on the Bowie mix.

i like this quote from Ron Asheton via wiki:
Don Fleming goes, "You know what? When Iggy's Raw Power mix comes out, I'll bet you're gonna go -- we always used to say how bad the original David Bowie mix of Raw Power was -- Fleming's going, "When you hear Iggy's mix, I guarantee you're gonna say, 'Man, remember that great mix that David Bowie did?'" So I heard it, I got the advance copy from his manager, and listened to it. Then I called Fleming and I'm going, "Gee, Don, I just listened to Iggy's mix of Raw Power. Man, I sure loved that old David Bowie mix. Was it ever great."...Basically, all that Iggy did was take all the smoothness and all the effects off James [Williamson]'s guitar, so his leads sound really abrupt and stilty and almost clumsy, and he just put back every single grunt, groan, and word he ever said on the whole fuckin' soundtrack. He just totally restored everything that was cut out of him in the first mix, and I thought, Damn, I really did like the old mix better.

are there any Bowie quotes about his mix? does he defend it or is he just like, "sorry mates too much coke don't remember a thing"

Now that I've listened to the remastered Bowie mix a couple of times, I do actually see how the mix and balance are out of whack but I still greatly prefer it to Iggy's mix for all the reasons discussed above. I never saw the point of Williamson's solos until now. Oddly balanced mix of sounds > actual destruction of the sounds themselves.

What's weird, though, is that the version of "Penetration" from that Youtube (the "Search and Destroy" 7", I'm guessing??) actually sounds better than the version on the Bowie-mixed album. The celeste is much clearer.

Big time kudos on the WL/WH endorsement!! Its another fine example of what I'm talking about. Don't even get me started on Half Gentlemen/Not Beasts [Half Japanese]& Philosophy of the World by da Shaggs! LOL

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Well, i grew up with the lousy Bowie mix and thought Iggy's was a definite improvement...at first, mainly because that ridiculously raucnhy, fuzzy guitar part in "Search & Destroy" was totally inaudible originally. But I eventually realized that that was the ONLY thing I liked about Iggy's mix; namely, the uncovering of an unnoticed sonic detail or two. But in retrospect, yeah, Bowie's lousy mix had more power than Iggy's lousier mix.

One aspect of the '97 edition that was unquestionably an improvement: the restoration to full-length of several tracks that faded significantly earlier on the original CD and vinyl. Playing time-wise, the Iggy version is nearly a full minute longer than the original. Also, the belch that introduces "Raw Power" itself was restored. (Went MIA on the original CD edition.)

I like that this poll is sudden, brutal and quick.

he just put back every single grunt, groan, and word he ever said on the whole fuckin' soundtrack.

Yeah this is one of the problems I have with the Iggy mix, these extra grunts that weren't there on the Bowie mix, which is what I'm used to and they just sound wrong being there.

What you'd expect if you let a singer mix an album perhaps. There's more bass in the Iggy mix, this is a good thing. I really like the version of "I Need Somebody" but agree with a lot of the criticisms voiced upthread,

Agreed re. moans, grunts, etc. On occasion they interfere with the brain-dissolving assault of the guitar howls mentioned above. I like the idea of the opening belch though. It seems appropriate somehow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

that's not such a bad result
(for the iggy mix, naturally)

I think I quite liked the Iggy mixes of Your Pretty Face Is Going To Hell and Shake Appeal, the louder guitar sounded pretty good there, but the rest I'll take Bowie. I definitely prefer the Bowie mix of Search & Destroy, the weird mix really works there for me, the way the lead guitar (overdubbed?) comes in so loud just adds the whole out of control feeling, the Iggy mix might be a bit harder sounding but the Bowie mix is fucking deranged which is how it should really be.

Maybe I've been under a rock or something, but I discovered recently that there is a Legacy Edition of Raw Power either out or on-the-way. One thing quite killer about this is that there is a second disc with a couple of outtakes AND the fabled Stooges 1973 show at Richard's in Atlanta! I don't know if RP has been remixed and/or remastered for this release or not...

Wow, does the Iggy mix sound different today, compared to 15 years ago.

My ears have gotten used to the sound of digital distortion and digital compression, I suppose? Most of the Iggy mix just sounds "good" to me right now-- aside from "Gimme Danger" where the drum fills are squashed beyond recognition

It does sound much more 'normal' and less exceptional, professional even, you're right, like MCR-style production applied to a 70s album. I'm not sure I'd exactly consider this good production though.

(The guitar solos on "Gimme Danger" are a mess too.)

If anything, I think this makes the Iggy mix seem less interesting than it used to.

(I like MCR despite the production, not because of it, to be clear.)

Yeah totally. I actually would love Bowie's mix fullstop had he not leaned so hard on te vocal fader. It's an album you can't turn up

Iggy's mix of Penetration is pretty much perfect

I can't think of any collection of recorded songs/material more poorly served in the engineering/production dept. The fact that there's no real master tapes, just everything on three tracks (vocals, lead guitar, and everything else) is such an insane mistake that there's really no way there will ever be a decent mix of this album. Both the Bowie mix *and* the Iggy mix suck - for different reasons - it's such a bummer.

I agree, but I much prefer the Bowie mix over the Iggy mix!

do people not rate the kevin gray mix?

I do too but it's a "lesser of two evils" situation

xp

i've been playing the heck out of this album the last couple days. i used to underrate it next to funhouse but i'm not even sure i don't prefer it now. funhouse is weirder and maybe more special, in the sense that i don't know of any other album that really sounds quite like it, but raw power does what it does pretty damn well.

it is a shame that there isn't one really satisfying version of the album. i do like the bowie mix, especially for how startlingly loud the lead guitar is mixed compared to everything else (it always jolts me when it suddenly appears at the beginning of "search and destroy"), but the quieter tracks like "i need somebody" and "penetration" sound really muffled to me.

iggy did a good job with those tracks, i think, but i just don't think his version is that fun to listen to all the way through. i wish someone would just take the best elements of both mixes and make a new version.

Isn't the problem that there's not much to mix? One track for vocals, one track for everything else?

iirc that is correct

sounds like a good day to break out my old Bowie-mix LP

Iggy mix, all the way

...the most absurd situation I encountered when I was recording was the first time I worked with Iggy Pop. He wanted me to mix Raw Power, so he brought the 24-track tape in, and he put it up. He had the band on one track, lead guitar on another and him on a third. Out of 24 tracks there were just three tracks that were used. He said 'see what you can do with this'. I said, 'Jim, there's nothing to mix'.

Oh well I like 'em both in different ways, and like to think that there's no definitive winnah, which is makes it/them even more of a subversive conjoined twin landmark. Anyway xgau:

Raw Power [Columbia/Legacy, 1997]
Strict constructionists and lo-fi snobs charge indignantly that by remixing his own album Iggy has made a mockery of history and done irreparable damage to a priceless work of art. This is really stupid. Before it was anointed the Platonic idea of rock and roll by desperate young men who didn't have much else to choose from, first-generation Iggyphiles charged just as indignantly that David Bowie had mixed the real thing way too thin--as Iggy observes, this classic-by-comparison always sounded "weedy" (although, not to insult a valued colleague, "David's" version was also "very creative"). So the pumped bass and vocals Iggy has uncovered on the original tapes, which were supposed to coexist with their high-end screech to begin with, are a quantum improvement. Plus you can finally hear the celeste on "Penetration"--sounds great! Only the slow ones, which like all of Iggy's slow ones are not as good as his fast ones, stand between a statement of principle and a priceless work of art. A-

I shouldn't have posted that, sorry, but since I did, here's what he said about the Bowie:
Raw Power [Columbia, 1973]
In which David Bowie remembers "the world's forgotten boy" long enough to sponsor an album--and mixes it down till it's thin as an epicure's wrist. The side-openers, "Search and Destroy" and "Raw Power," voice the Iggy Pop ethos more insanely (and aggressively) than "I Wanna Be Your Dog." But despite James Williamson's guitar, the rest disperses in their wake. B+

huh, apparently the iggy mix of raw power was remastered for vinyl in 2012 and the distortion (which is what makes his version such a tough listen imo) was removed. anyone heard that?

till it's thin as an epicure's wrist

...which must be... thin, I guess...?

I think the cd box version was 'tempered'

i have the 2LP (Iggy/Bowie mixes) Raw Power and it does sound less abrasive to me; there's still some audible clipping but it isn't as exhausting when played at the volumes i listen to that record at. Though tbh I listened to the CD on repeat a lot, too, despite the digital distortion.

yeah, the 2012 version of the "iggy mix" has less clipping and is overall way more listenable, i'd call that version the preferred one

Is it also on CD?

apparently not

I still love the Iggy mix, it probably is too exhausting to sit and listen to in headphones but when I first got the CD I didn't listen to music anywhere but my truck (with all the compromises that entails) so it has always felt like the perfect driving through the apocalypse soundtrack.

fwiw, the 2-track recording story isn't true, as demonstrated in the Raw Power doc from 2010 where Iggy pulls up individual tracks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioYuU9O9Ft8

Having just heard the Iggy mix for the first time, I feel like this is what it should've sounded like all along.