Whose whiny, wrongheaded petulance makes for the best art?

3rd Bass or Byrds coin toss

Byrds, but it's more satire than whiny petulance.

I saw the words "whiny, wrongheaded petulance" and I instinctively thought B1lly C0rg4n was going to be one of the options.

there must be a kanye track that belongs here

"So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star" and "Panic" I love; "Glamour Boy" I like a lot; "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts" used to bore me silly; "Pop Goes the Weasel" I consider ridiculous. (Damn, I just thought of something I should have included: Peter, Paul & Mary's "I Dig Rock and Roll Music," which I also love.) Some of these attacks are general, some specific. "Glamour Boy": regular-guy Burton Cummings was apparently having a hard time processing Bowie and the Dolls and the rest. "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts": I don't remember specifics, but I think it was a screed against pop music in general, or maybe just mid-'80s Britpop. "Panic": dance culture in general, or maybe just a certain kind of dance music--I'm not British, so I don't remember the specific context that inspired this. "Pop Goes the Weasel": Vanilla Ice specifically, poppy hip-hop in general. (Or maybe just white poppy hip-hop, even though 3rd Bass were white--it was all kind of confusing.) "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star": the Monkees specifically, but, retroactively, I think it's come to symbolize an attack on manufactured, bubblegummy music in general. The point is, whining about how a certain kind of pop music is selling more records, or garnering more attention, than your own can produce great music, middling music, or lousy music. I'd probably vote "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star" the best of these five; it's better than "Sugar Sugar" (by a nose), but not as good as the Monkees' "Pleasant Valley Sunday." Xhuxk could probably come up with lengthy lists of country songs complaining about fake country, or metal songs complaining about fake metal, and maybe he will. Word of warning: my polls are among the most heavily trafficked on the internets, so vote early and vote often.

and the Dolls and the rest.

Lou Reed's "NY Stars".

I always thought "Rock'n'Roll Star" was about the shitness of the industry in general, including the hoops the Byrds themselves had to jump thru.

How soon we forget Nickelback :(

byrds will win this poll by 40 points and their inclusion is mind-blowingly silly

Similar to the Byrd's song is The Mamas & The Papas "Creeque Alley".

Xhuxk could probably come up with lengthy lists of country songs complaining about fake country, or metal songs complaining about fake metal, and maybe he will.

...someday, but not today.

Anyway, I'd go Byrds > X > Guess Who > Smiths > 3rd Bass, I think, Guess Who (which song I've never given any thought to before right this second) being the wild card.

Xhuxk could probably come up with lengthy lists of country songs complaining about fake country, or metal songs complaining about fake metal, and maybe he will.

...someday, but not today. Anyway, I'd almost definitely go Byrds > X > Guess Who > Smiths > 3rd Bass, I think, Guess Who (which song I've never given any thought to before right this second) being the wild card. (And I apparently still think the stupid 3rd Bass song is entertaining enough to own the 12-inch.)

(Uh, not sure how that happened -- you get the rough draft and the edit.)

remix!

byrds will win this poll by 40 points and their inclusion is mind-blowingly silly

Silly in that they may win by 40 points, sure, although I'm going to guess that "Panic" won't be all that far behind. Silly conceptually? Not at all--it's very specifically a response to the Monkees, and it's more or less in line with every song listed above. If you don't think it should be included because you don't consider it whiny and petulant, well, that's more a matter of opinion.

LJ is underestimating the Smiths' constituency on ILM

Silly in that no matter how wrongheaded their rant (and I don't think it's THAT wrongheaded), the song's goodness is clearly being used to counteract the lyrical sentiments - it strikes me as being quite self-knowing, and as it's a pretty classic tune I expect it to clean up here

LJ is underestimating the Smiths' constituency on ILM

I think that constituency is at present outnumbered by people who'll vote for classic rock but we'll see

I like Panic best of anything here but then I would, wouldn't I

"Panic" over "Pop Goes The Weasel". I love the Byrds but don't particularly care for this song.

Well, we don't agree here. I absolutely love "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star," but I'm not sure what "the song's goodness is clearly being used to counteract the lyrical sentiments" means--are you saying that, realizing they may have written a song that could be construed as whiny, McGuinn or somebody said, "We better make sure it's a great-sounding song so nobody takes too much notice of the lyrics"? I honestly don't get what you're saying. I will grant you (and a couple of other people who've defended the song so far) one thing: I just took a look at the lyrics, and while it may have begun life as a horrified response to the Monkees, it does read more like an anti-industry song in general. But again--we're disagreeing over a song we both love.

X.

I saw the words "whiny, wrongheaded petulance" and I instinctively thought B1lly C0rg4n was going to be one of the options.

― StanM, Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:16 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha ditto

I haven't actually voted yet as I haven't heard the other songs - maybe they're all great! But the Byrds' rant at the industry is slyly and deliberately offset by the fact it's an excellent, well-crafted pop tune - it works against itself either way, which I quite like - it's a big ambiguity whose resolution can only be found in the austerity of the Byrds' art

Okay...I do get the feeling you're working from the premise that a song can be great, and it can be whiny and petulant, but it can't be both at the same time; if so, disagree. But speaking as a major Byrds fan, "a big ambiguity whose resolution can only be found in the austerity of the Byrds' art" is a great line.

TBH, I don't think either that the Byrds' lyrics are especially wrongheaded or that the quality of the tune somehow undercuts the lyrical statement.

Sundar people are generally of the opinion that if you get to play music for a living then any complaining about the stresses of your job in public is unseemly, and I have to say, people do have something of a point there - the business is rough but it beats the shit out of punching a time clock

OK, yes, I do see what you're saying there. I think I still find e.g. the petulance on The College Dropout to be more wrongheaded but that's probably a separate issue.

(And why was Pink Floyd shut out of this poll then?)

the hierarchy of which rich people get a little bit of slack in complaining about their jobs and which ones get called big whiners is a whole separate thread for sure however to be fair I think even kanye's biggest supporters are lol'ing at his the-hard-life-of-the-millionaire schtick

oh shit have a cigar HAS to be in this poll hahaha

have a cigar is special because it's also on the 70s "I am above this fray" tip in a heavy way - "we call it riding the gravy train!" o yes pink floyd, you have seen through the charade, now go spend a lot of money on inflatable pigs

would vote for that song in a STFU poll

Yeah, I was specifically thinking that the anti-college petulance on The College Dropout strikes me as more wrongheaded per se than the anti-industry bitchiness in the Byrds song, which is probably still whiny. But I'm biased and it's a separate issue, yes.

xposts

Just to argue against myself, I think it's fairly certain the Byrds weren't making a whole lot of money when they released "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star"--more than the workaday world, probably, but I bet not a whole lot more. Groupies and all the rest of it, definitely.

good christians don't go for groupies

amirite

Christian groupies only: Suzy Resurrection, Little Miss Atonement, Cynthia Sanctification, they were everywhere.

By the way, the intent of the list was to include songs that targeted specific musicians or at least specific kinds of music. I only know Kanye's singles, so I don't know if he has any songs that fit. But it isn't a list about whiny and petulant music in general--if you started listing songs of the lonely-at-the-top/woe-is-me variety, there'd be no end to it. You'd get lost the mid-'70s alone.

No one's mentioned Beatles era Harrison yet?

I see nothing wrongheaded at all about "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts," my favorite X lyric. It's about trying not to lose your conscience in a world of injustices both big (U.S. death squads in Central America) and small (radio really sucks right now). The verse about not getting airplay follows a verse about internalizing culpability for the evils of your country, which I interpret to show how the personal injustices weigh on you more heavily than the larger ones, all while realizing that you're powerless to do anything about either of them.

The opening line of the verse ("The facts we hate / you'll never hear us") echoes the broader concern of the song's first line ("The facts we hate / we'll never meet")--it's knowing petulance, like John Lennon returning his MBE because of British support of the Vietnam war and because "Cold Turkey" was falling off the charts. And they're looking for radio to support not just themselves but American music in general, music about something real ("Woody Guthrie sang about / B-E-E-T-S not B-E-A-T-S"). So it may be petulant, but it's now particularly wrong.

I don't know--even as someone who had at best an arm's-length appreciation of mid-80s Britpop (which seems to be the target of X's frustration), I find the idea that the radio would have been a better place had the Flesheaters or D.O.A. been played instead to be pretty wrongheaded. From what I remember, the Flesheaters were awful. The Minutemen or Black Flag (two other bands they mention), possibly; and if they'd name-checked Husker Du or the Replacements, then I'd be in agreement.

Had it been "Glamour Boys" by Living Colour, this would have been an easier decision.

Panic is great but the shameless T.Rex pilfering bothers me

Pop Goes the Weasel is probably the funniest

not that it's wrong to borrow from T.Rex, it's just that they don't really do much with it apart from the bitchy lyric

also where's "Instant Club Hit (You'll Dance To Anything)"?

Xhuxk could probably come up with lengthy lists of country songs complaining about fake country

"Murder on Music Row" by George Strait & Alan Jackson comes to mind. As does Jackson's "Gone Country."

xp Also, what kept Flesheaters/Black Flag/Minutemen off the radio was their sound, not their American-ness. There were plenty of American bands on the radio in those days, from the Go-Gos on down.

Anyway, basically the song is their equivalent of "Money For Nothing." (How come that's not in this poll? Maybe "Sultans Of Swing" too?) I've posted about "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts" a couple times elsewhere:

Joe Carducci's Rock and the Pop Narcotic

A Paler Shade of White---Sasha Frere-Jones Podcast and New Yorker article Criticizing Indie Rock for Failing to Incorporate African-American Influences

Btw there's actually a Maggotron LP from 1989 (well, technically Dawn Of the Maggozulu) where he has liner notes on the back titled "The Quest for the Missing Beet," with pictures of beets (the vegetable) and everything! Wonder what John and Exene though of that.

xpost to clemenza Still a bit too early for Husker Du or the Replacements, no?

And hideous lump, that's seriously your fave X lyric in an oeuvre filled to the brim with amazing ones?

"Panic." End of poll.

xp Also obviously the idea that U.S. punk bands sang about more "real" stuff than British pop bands at the time is just goofy. I like the Flesheaters' sound more than Clemenza does, but didn't Chris D mostly groan about, like, haunted boneyards and headless horsemen and things like that? And I'm pretty sure Black Flag had zero lyrics about beets. (And I don't know if Culture Club, say, sang about beats much, either.)

Also by 1983 the biggest up-and-coming Brit band on the radio was probably U2 -- who I bet were Woody Guthrie fans just like X were!

You don't need to bet, xhuxk:

http://www.amazon.com/Folkways-Vision-Tribute-Guthrie-Leadbelly/dp/B0000026HV

This came out shortly before Rattle and Hum and guess who covered Guthrie's "Jesus Christ" on it...

xp Well okay, Synchronicity and Pyromania bigger than War that year I guess, but I don't think that's who X were singing about either (partly becaue Def Lep didn't go through their glitter disco synthesizer night school noble savage drum drum drum phase until four years later.)

no Lollies option?

haunted boneyards and headless horsemen and things like that

^^^critical topics American discourse here, I must say!

Still a bit too early for Husker Du or the Replacements, no?

I'd forgotten how early More Fun in the New World was: September '83, so even though Husker Du had put out a couple of records by that point, and the Replacements three good ones, their best work was still ahead. So, yeah, they were unlikely to show up in "I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts"--especially considering how fixated X were on West-Coast bands.

"Money for Nothing": I dislike it so intensely it's never more than three seconds before I change the station, so I just have a general sense of what it's about, but it probably belongs. As I wrote in the intro, there are undoubtedly loads of songs I left off--just threw up the first five I thought of.

One thing I was thinking about: is "So You Want to Be a Rock 'n' Roll Star" the very first song of this type? Is there an earlier example of a band or singer writing a song attacking other musicians (or, if you'd prefer, the industry in general)? Not a Stan Freberg/Allan Sherman parody, but a pop/rock band targeting other pop/rock bands. Maybe the Mothers of Invention were there first, but I can't think of a specific song; I know Dylan had a couple (at least) putting down the folk world he'd left behind, but his are probably more coded and metaphorical.

oh Positively Fourth Street is pretty goddamned obvious. But I think that's after SYWBARNRS (how's that for an acronym!) anyway

gotta be prior examples tho, 50s guys making fun of Pat Boone or something

"Positively 4th Street" was the first thing I thought of, but I wasn't sure if that was specifically addressed at another musician, or just somebody who got under Dylan's skin for whatever reason. He had a real gift for vitriol at the time--it may have just been inspired by room service making him wait an extra five minutes.

Phil Ochs is the target, no...?

If it's Phil Ochs, then that's the first song of this type...or not; there's a personal connection between singer and object-of-scorn that sets it apart from what's listed above.

country songs complaining about fake country

"Murder on Music Row" by George Strait & Alan Jackson comes to mind. As does Jackson's "Gone Country."

for whininess, wrongheadedness and petulance, robbie fulks' "fuck this town" has gotta be way up there.

And I'm pretty sure Black Flag had zero lyrics about beets. (And I don't know if Culture Club, say, sang about beats much, either.)

woody guthrie, of course, was a gigantic influence on that other kind of beats, the kind with names like kerouac and ginsberg. i love that x wrote a beatnikky jazz folk song to deal with these bad thoughts, and that the beatnikky jazz aspect of it totally works. i've always loved that song.

Have to go for The Byrds. "Panic" deserves credit for the lines about hating DJs though (even though Morrissey wasn't really speaking of dance/club music)

xp Jason Boland's "Hank" (about how everything from Nashville is cookie cutter blah blah blah and Hank wouldn't've made it there these days etc.) is another one. (I like it okay anyway, but he has better songs.)

Metal ones might be tougher, since real metal bands have more important things to shriek about, apparently; I feel like they're more likely just to fuss about false metalers' tiny drum kits in the liner notes.

I've always considered Alan Jackson's "Gone Country" (which Pres. Keyes mentioned above) more pro-sellout, but I guess it's at least partially sarcastic toward the city folks moving there from NY and LA.

I vote for "Turn The Page."

even though Morrissey wasn't really speaking of dance/club music

Are you sure about that? Like I say, I'm not British and only remember reaction to the song from a remove, but what I do recall more or less jibes with Wikipedia's description (and if Wikipedia says so, it must be true):

"Panic" drew fire from critics who construed Morrissey's lyrics to have a racist connotation, due to their disparagement of the "disco" and the "DJ". The criticism was intensified by comments Morrissey made in a September 1986 Melody Maker interview with Frank Owen, where the singer denounced a "black pop conspiracy". Marr in particular was incensed by the article and threatened to "kick the living shit" out of the writer if he crossed the band's path. Marr countered that "disco music" could not be equated with "black music"; he argued, "To those who took offence at the 'burn down the disco' line...I'd say please show me the black members of New Order!"

And hideous lump, that's seriously your fave X lyric in an oeuvre filled to the brim with amazing ones?

Yes, but I'm shallow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I think I'd like to see Johnny Marr kick the living shit out of a Melody Maker journalist.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

kind of glad to know that johnny marr apparently hates new order even though I like both the smiths and new order

Did he just get over it before Electronic?

Ha, I somehow forgot that this is an old thread before I responded.