TS: Captain Beefheart Vs. Minutemen

I would have voted Minutemen over any other band in ILM bracketology.

TS: Food Vs. Water

is food = political shit and water = wacky sex metaphors?

Beefheart = great Minutemen = better

Beefheart = essential, Minutemen = I can't listen for more than 1 minute before turning that shit off.

minutemen

Minutemen in a second.

how many people here saw the minutemen live

Hand raised. Treasure that memory. It was a school night, slipped out the Rat in Kenmore Square. This show

http://www.operationphoenixrecords.com/suburbanvoiceminutemen.html

beefhearts got better jokes. and tunes.

I like the minutemen a whole lot, but choosing them over Beefheart is simply incomprehensible to me. The odd fellow who would chose the minutemen as their favorite is one thing, but if they were to actually win this, it would be like waking up in a some kind of ignorant and twisted backward culture where women are raped for knowing how to read. I would probably have to stop lurking here.

More accurately, it'd be like finding out you've been reading a message board that in the aggregate valued a very good and influential band over an absolutely amazing and legendary genius who partially influenced that very good band. But the end result is the same. A community that doesn't afford Beefheart the respect he is due is a community that deserves no respect itself.

Oh noes what have I done?

Hall of Fame post from Mister Jim. Voted Minutemen.

(nah voted Beefheart)

Never knew the Minutemen were such a big deal till ILM. Shouldn't they be on the ILM Cult Bands Poll thing? Or are they just an American thing?

Anyway, I tried listening to that Dime/Nickel whatever it's called album and it thought, "This is objectively really brilliant but subjectively I am unlikely to listen to this before about a 1000 other bands and artists"

would've pegged them at abt the same level of 'fame' as black flag in the uk, back in the day - ie known to hardcore heads, occasional mention in the NME, recs available in places like the virgin megastore

Possibly, I never knew anyboy that listened to Black Flag either, I suspect I knew more about them however, certainly I'd have heard of their albums even if I'd never heard them

Bought my first Minutemen album in a shitty provincial Our Price, so they couldn't have been all that unknown.

You could always find weird records if you looked hard enough

beefheart. like Tom D i usually find minutemen better in theory

Double Nickels has more thrillpower per minute than any other record ever made.

People seem to really love that record

The odd fellow who would chose the minutemen as their favorite is one thing, but if they were to actually win this, it would be like waking up in a some kind of ignorant and twisted backward culture where women are raped for knowing how to read. I would probably have to stop lurking here.

had no intention whatsoever of voting in this but you convinced me, thx Mister Jim

dude. love the Minutemen; remember buying DNOTD the very day it was released (Zen Arcade too); likewise remember feeling cheated by life when the road took d. Boon. but Beefheart is the man.

if they were to actually win this, it would be like waking up in a some kind of ignorant and twisted backward culture where women are raped for knowing how to read. I would probably have to stop lurking here.

lol waht

i hope that's not a new board description...!

I have a sentimental attachment to the so-cal prog-punk of the Minutemen but Beefheart is like archetypal forc-of-nature from Mars type shit, so he wins.

I find the Minutemen more accessible than Beefheart. I don't want to go to Mars.

beefheart's a genius and I absolutely love him, but if I'm gonna be honest here, the amount of time spent listening to minutemen over the course of my life >>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of time spent listening to beefheart

guess I'm going heart over art on this one, at least it'll piss off mister jim

Beefheart.

@Gross Rainbow: I did see the Minutemen on 2 occasions. Once in a tiny club & another time in a theater opening for REM. Both shows were terrific. They truly played their asses off & I would rate their rhythm section among the best ever.

I had, well, problems with Beefheart until I got Shiny Beast a couple of years ago – it's a real good avant-pop album. There's a kinship between it and Double Nickels that I'm not prepared to articulate because I'm hungry and my ham sandwich is calling.

between "some kind of ignorant and twisted backward culture where women are raped for knowing how to read" + "my ham sandwich is calling" I think we've pretty much captured the Captain's muse on this thread

I still like a lot of his music (esp the earliest stuff) but I could really do without the Magic Band having to backup his Howlin' Robyn Hitchcock "my penis is a lobster" shtick.

I like-but-don't-love Beefheart's last two albums, and spent about a month trying to appreciate Trout Mask before realizing hey, life is short and this is some bullshit. On the other hand, I spent my entire junior year of high school listening to Double Nickels On The Dime over and over, just endlessly flipping the cassette in my Walkman. For years I couldn't listen to the CD version because I had it memorized and the absence of the five songs that were cut was just too jarring. So yeah, the Minutemen.

this is tough, but I'm gonna say Beefheart even though I love the Minutemen and they are one of my favorite bands ever.

but for me, it's more of a roots thing, in that i don't think that the Minutemen could have existed w/out Beefheart.

that's right, i just invoked INFLUENCE. choke on that you contrarian revisionists.

d boon as a soloist is kinda mindblowing but I have just gotten more play over my life from Beefheart.

The odd fellow who would chose the minutemen as their favorite is one thing, but if they were to actually win this, it would be like waking up in a some kind of ignorant and twisted backward culture where women are raped for knowing how to read. I would probably have to stop lurking here.

was gonna vote for the minutemen, and this only made me vote for them more. lived inside double nickels for months after its release and love basically everything they ever did. and i love beefheart, too, dun get me wrong. shiny beast, safe as milk, clear spot, mirror man all fantastic records without which there'd be a terrible hole in the world. and no minutemen besides, but whatever. i just love the minutemen more, and stentorian condemnations of my philistine heart will not sway me.

beefheart's gonna walk away with this though. won't even be close. can't see many/any UK voters going with d. & the boys, and ILM is hardly the most punk-friendly gathering place. plus the canon. remember?

no way, man. this is gonna be a blowout in the m-men's favour!

the minutemen are from the eighties. ilm will generally default in favor of the eighties, with the obvious canonical exceptions (Beatles, VU, etc). the urge the take 'em down a peg does not yet extend to many eighties icons, but the urge to de-mythologize/less reverently evaluate sixties & seventies bands/artists is strong. imo.

I think that's otm but more a demographic thing than anything else

but I could really do without the Magic Band having to backup his Howlin' Robyn Hitchcock "my penis is a lobster" shtick.

Just the kind of thing Beefheart does on Dachau Blues.

I think we should possibly scrap the thread until the memory of Mister Jim's post is vanquished for all time since a few posters are reacting to it in one way or another.

It will take a long time...

was just kidding abt the reaction. would vote the same no matter what. still think mr beefheart will trounce, cult adoration is strong

so's indie rock worship.

A few posters are doing reacting to that post tho'. I probably won't vote as its kinda 50-50. The Minutemen possibly apply the stuff the Magic Band were doing in a more 'fun' way, but just bcz Beefheart was more conscious in deploying surrealist imagery doesn't make it a shtick. Its a deeper interest, one that he seems to have taken into his paintings, and it was often actually funny (look at the contrast with Zappa)

I don't see why a UK-er would like Beefheart more. Is it the John Peel thing or what? Most UK-er quite like the SST thing, and from what I can tell its a label that became even more visible once Nirvana started selling records here. xp

I like the Minutemen well enough but just on quantity alone there are like 6 absolutely classic Beefheart albums IMO whereas the Minutemen have what, just a couple or so?

As a listener, I prefer Double Nickels to any specific Beefheart album. But there is no denying the body of work and long term influence of Beefheart.

yeah, ILM indie worship is a factor, but doesn't often seem to break in favor of punk identified acts. minutemen are a special case in that regard, though, and their appeal is hardly confined to punks.

not sure why i presume that the minutemen would be a more american taste. maybe because they're so resolutely attached to US politics and class issues, so identified with a particular (and particularly american) place, time and POV. maybe just because i see more americans in the SST and US 80s "underground"/proto-indie threads. and i have this notion, unfair i'm sure, that UK ilxorz went more for the arty and poppy american stuff of the era. sonic youth, pixies, big black and mission or burma over the likes of the minutemen.

Minutemen and Steely Dan? I don't see it. The Beefheart/Zappa-loving pricks I'm talking about are usually huge on Steely Dan but I've never connected them with the Minutemen. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying ALL fans of those acts are pricks)

Beefheart were taken up a lot more by UK punk/post-punk types rigth? The one guy to rescue out of the wastage of the rock-era, or so that's how I read it (unlike Grateful Dead, Zappa and the like).

I see Minuteman as a meeting place for all sorts of rock era stuff that morphed into punk/hardcore -- of course not that I went on to hear much of it anyway...xxxp

how many people here saw the minutemen live

Saw Beefheart -- does that count? At the long lost, beloved My Fathers Place, toward the end of its (and his) career. Not the Rhino Handmade gig; it was a couple years that. Anyway, him.

couple years *after* that

Beefheart were taken up a lot more by UK punk/post-punk types rigth? The one guy to rescue out of the wastage of the rock-era, or so that's how I read it (unlike Grateful Dead, Zappa and the like).

OTM. But, even then, I don't think the Dan were not totally reviled because they were arty and intellectual and, well, good really

Correction: I don't think the Dan were not totally reviled because they were arty and intellectual and, well, good really

Safe As Milk vs Double Nickels

impossible

Beefheart finished on a high whereas the last couple of Minutemen records were only so-so IMO. Maybe that's a bit unfair on the Minutemen ending as they did, but if D Boon had lived, it's kind of hard to see them making that many more awesome records.

Double Nickels has more thrillpower per minute than any other record ever made.

― My totem animal is a hamburger. (WmC), Monday, August 2, 2010 1:45 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark

this is a classic time-continuum question, innit? Who came first? In the context of 1969/1970, Beefheart was pretty radical, but at the same time, it was just blues as it was understood, the blues boom already having peaked. And it was also just rock 'n' roll, too. I've never ever understood people who don't get Trout Mask Replica. It is a very groovy and physical record that isn't hard to grasp at all. The poetry is a parody of beatnik/jazzbo poetry, right? The excess of it all--"everybody's gone high society." Very funny. What that music does in the context of '69 is actually mindblowing. As is Decals. So I voted for Beefheart, which isn't to say I don't like the Minutemen, but coming 15 years or so after Beefheart, it doesn't sound so necessary to me. the entire punk era, from Gang o' Four to non-punk secret wimps like XTC, is Beefheart in the guitar attack. The idea of poetry-with-jazz that posters above decry is part of the package too, and again, with Beef it's a parody, not something you should get yourself exercised about. But I am not a fan of Shiny Beast beyond a few tracks.

I see no comparison to speak of between Capt. Beefheart & Steely Dan, unless its sorta Beefheart w/ all rough edges carefully filed off for a Holiday-Inn-lounge kind of vibe. Monster chops among the musicians in both cases might be the only similarity, despite having no stylistic resemblance. My ears detect some influence from Beefheart on the 'no wave' scene, with the relatively clean but nonetheless very 'out' guitars, jagged arrangements, and so forth. Oh, and let's not kid ourselves with attempts to take Trout Mask down a notch. Close listening continues to reveal amazing subtleties, tremendous poetry that is so far beyond 'wacky sex metaphors' its absurd ('Frownland' alone blows that out of the water), and a take on blues that has yet to be duplicated or eclipsed (even by Beefheart himself). It also had no real precedent with the possible exception of Robert Pete Williams, whom he covered on at least one occasion. TMR>Doc>Decals>Clear Spot>Shiny Beast, IMHO. Can't get behind any TMR backlash, sorry. ;-)

Minutemen did cover "Dr. Wu," but I don't know if they had a Steely Dan thing to speak of. They covered the living daylights out of CCR, Steppenwolf, Van Halen, Blue Oyster Cult, and the Urinals too. I think the Minutemen were huge fans of music in general, listening for the good in whoever they came across. Commendable, IMHO. Honestly, I think their primary influences were Urinals/100 Flowers and the first two Wire records. Maybe BOC too.

Yeah, BOO to anyone who thinks Beefheart's lyrics are just lobster dick metaphors.
I am constantly bewildered and amazed at his imagery, alone. Shit is unparalleled.

Thinking about doing a "Tropical Corn Dog Night" mash-up.

Sorry if this threw people off, but when I complained about the preponderance of surreal chauvinist sexblooze in Beefheart, I wasn't actually saying that it was indicative of ALL of his music. Not every song by Elvis Costello if about how his idiot girlfriend resembles a fascist, but if one found that tendency of his annoying responding "oh yeah, what about OLIVER'S ARMY, fool!" wouldn't really change anything.

big fan of beefheart, and i'd never reduce his writing to wacky sex jabber, but it's possible to just flat dislike TMR, as a whole, without expressing some kind of "backlash". it's a quintessentially difficult record. i liked clear spot, shiny beast and safe as milk immediately, on first listen. they appeal to me in a very basic, almost physical way. not so the mask. parts of TMR still resist my attempts to get with, decades deep. some great songs on there, but the whole is too blocky and bulbous for my tastes. this is not a backlash. it is my merely human inability to deal with a truly alien artifact.

"not really into freeform political ranting" "'TAKE 5, D' IS NOT THAT GOOD SIR!!"

@da croupier: Thing is, sexblooze in general wouldn't even comprise a majority as a topic in Beefheart toonz, as the 'alone' qualifier in my post was intended to indicate. i.e. far beyond consideration of 'Frownland' alone.

@a CRASBO: I understand what you're saying, and I think its possible to dislike anything for zillions of reasons. I still think such a backlash may be present for some people, in an "all-the-'hipsters'-think-this-is-amazing-so-it-can't-be" sorta way. There are rare artyfacts that live up to the hype, and I contend that TMR is among them (I would also include Pet Sounds & Jandek in that list). There is a strong concensus in the Beefheart world that TMR was the only honest representation of what he was really driving at. This Beefheart world would even include, if I remember correctly, liner notes from the Clear Spot/Spotlight Kid two-fer CD re-issue, which implies that virtually everything else ol' Don did was a compromise in some form or fashion. The utterly, bafflingly unique nature of TMR is among the reasons I like and respect it so much.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Voted minutemen. They were just too much a part of my teenage years. My best friend's drum influence. We listened to parts over and over again. Hearing them for the first time on KPFT, "My Heart and the Real World" into "History Lesson part II" on the Telephone Road Show. I saw them on the tour Billy Bragg was supposed to open but Reagan wouldn't let him into the country.

I picked up an import copy of Trout Mask a few years later, for 2 dollars at the Salvation Army, and it was pretty major as well.

I see no comparison to speak of between Capt. Beefheart & Steely Dan, unless its sorta Beefheart w/ all rough edges carefully filed off for a Holiday-Inn-lounge kind of vibe.

No one is comparing those two. All I'm saying is Minuteman have that crunchy interplay of Beefheart + a deceptive laid backness I hear in Steely Dan + lotsa 'classic' rock era stuff.

My Beefheart faves are roughly: Decals>TMR>Safe as Milk>5th disc of the box set

I've always felt that Coundown to Ecstasy had a kind of Magic Band compositional vibe on certain tracks, particularly 'Your gold teeth'.

British bands, you mean. Clearly influenced by them?

NickB is otm with Death By Milkfloat.They were self confessed Minutemen heads
They used to play the Hull Adelphi nearly every night and were the classic three piece too.

Although not that great

Back on thread - gotta be Minutemen.From the heart too.

I have had about nine failed attempts to 'get' TMReplica. I'm obviously too dull.Shall I give it a tenth?
I am however, very fond of Doc at the Radar..., Clear Spot,Ice Cream and Shiny Beast but it's the music that does it for me. Fuck knows what he's jabbering about.

^^^ My sad mates and I were into Mission Of Burma too. Around that time mid- late 80s and beyond), there were a large amount of us Limeys who preferred the music coming out of anywhere BUT England.

In the context of 1969/1970, Beefheart was pretty radical, but at the same time, it was just blues as it was understood

Sorry, but TMR was not "just blues as it was understood".

The poetry is a parody of beatnik/jazzbo poetry, right?

Beefheart does not strike me as a parodist.

Also it was never 'just rock n'roll'.

Anyway, I don't wanna keep going on about TMR, you don't need to like TMR to be a Beefheart fan

I have had about nine failed attempts to 'get' TMReplica. I'm obviously too dull.Shall I give it a tenth?

the way I got into trout mask replica was to focus on a couple tracks that I dug and they were the key to unlocking the whole thing, "ella guru", "moonlight on vermont", "my human gets me blues", "the blimp".

E3 otm. 'Moonlight on Vermont' was my way in.

xp - For sure, considering TMR is only his fourth or fifth best album, after Decals, Doc, Clear Spot and for some maybe even Shiny Beast or Ice Cream.

I love the Minutemen, but guess who I'm voting for. I have fantasies that Beefheart would triumphantly return at ATP, play a reunion tour, record, star in his own reality show, and get all the wealth and fame he bitterly complained about missing out on first time around. Alas, he's ill with I think MS and possibly other problems.

>>I see no comparison to speak of between Capt. Beefheart & Steely Dan, unless its sorta Beefheart w/ all rough edges carefully filed off for a Holiday-Inn-lounge kind of vibe.<<
>>No one is comparing those two. All I'm saying is Minuteman have that crunchy interplay of Beefheart + a deceptive laid backness I hear in Steely Dan + lotsa 'classic' rock era stuff<<.

Sorry, I mis-read the post.

I love Beefheart and have been revisiting his stuff recently but nothing of his means as much to me as Double Nickels does, plus Mike Watt seems like such a nice guy with a really great attitude to music.

Totally agree that TMR is best discovered one song at a time - 'Moonlight On Vermont' was the key for me (that guitar playing... it's just so vicious).

Have to agree with previous posters, it was the acapella stuff that first drew me into TMR. I love the offbeat timing (more obvious when there's not the wriggling octupus of the magic band entwining it) and the little tape recorder clicks.

Beefheart does not strike me as a parodist

i agree, and wonder if "absurdist" is any more accurate (like David Thomas and his dadaisms)

This thread has inspired me to break out my neglected Beefhearts and try again. Thanks. As for anyone ever seeing the Minutemen, I am ever grateful for the two shows I saw. The first one remains a semi-mystical memory. We sped through rain and fog from St. Louis to Columbia and remained in a daze as Mike Watt's bass elevated every moment into beauty. It was as spiritual an experience as I've ever had. The next year they came to St. Louis, were almost as great (no fog to make anything magical), and we slammed in front of the stage for a couple of hours. (Their pre-show and post-show music tape was all Meat Puppets, by the way.) The band that night slept on my friends' floor, being as cool and friendly as everyone reports. During the show D. Boon gave out "US Out of Central America!" bumper stickers, telling us to put them on the bumpers of strangers' cars. Me being a jerk, I kept it as a souvenir. A few months later, after he died, I found a Cadillac and tried to pay tribute.

I wz just going to say Moonlight in Vermont >>> every song on Shiny Beast, but E3 kind of beat me to it. Way to earn yr keep dude. ;)

Yeah, BOO to anyone who thinks Beefheart's lyrics are just lobster dick metaphors.
I am constantly bewildered and amazed at his imagery, alone. Shit is unparalleled.

― Trip Maker, Tuesday, August 3, 2010 11:28 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark

re: Minutemen-influenced bands: I feel like I'm in the minority here, but The Dismemberment Plan (... Is Terrified, in particular, but the rhythm section in general) often hits me in a similar place. that combination of funkiness and hyperactivity, open-endedness -- I'm listening to "Tonight We Mean It" right now, dude just sang "Might just drive around and try to listen for something weird", which seems like a sentiment the Minutemen could've gotten down with -- I dunno.

also: can't wait for these results

Just a reminder that captain beefheart was abusive and really mean to his band mates while the minutemen are all really cool stand-up lads. Don't know if that affected anyone's vote...

i'd say the tension is similiar to Obama vs Bush election day.

dag

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

wow, very very close.

Closer than some would have expected, I'd bet.

Viceroy - it affected my vote

closer than i expected, that's for sure

I'm satisfied since I like both and can't say that I deeply love either.

I missed this, saw Minutemen live, would have brought it a point closer, but coincidentally was just blasting TMR yesterday.

apologies to all UK folks, btw, for questioning the depth of yr commitment

Great poll!! Love both of these artists, though I voted Beef. Yes, even though he's a dictatorial control freak assclown.