Robert Christgau - Ima'murrican, Gawdammit!

A) Lots and lots of space, but a common national identity modulated just enough by regional differences to allow for local evolutions that emerge as influxes of originality on a national pop (read: MTV) scale.

and

B) Hella local markets (yees, the vile paws of capitalism) meaning DIVERSIFICATION of culture (ie: not Radio1, Radio2, etc.)(also, will someone please give me some idea of the impact of pirate radio stations on brit pop music? I've got the picture that it's rather large, but sometimes feel like that's mistaken); BUT, before you start hating me, note that the monopolization in progress by the (EVILEVILEVILEVILEVIL!!!!!!) Clear Channel completely offsets this benefit (so capitalism w/o regulation is still bad! HA!

hahahahahahahaha

But Hispanic music is, in many forms anyway, deeply African- influenced, so there it is again, interestingly enough. Clave is almost certainly derived from Africa, but beyond that there are the rhythms of various African religions in the new world which find their way, more or less intact, into salsa, etc. What little bit of Colombian folkloric dancing I have seen and participated in felt very close to what I did a long time ago in African dance class.

Not that I'm an Afrocentrist.

As for Christgau's overall point, I don't feel I know enough to say, but I have my doubts.

don't know enough but I must comment. first of all he can have his 'US pop is superior' argument since pop isn't really music (heh) but also who is going to be the first one on this thread to make a distiction between pop and hip-hop. Surely hip-hop isn't just 'pop'.

you cannot equate the two statements above as I have never said that hip-hop is a sign of vulgarity. Nor that jazz or avant-garde, etc. is 'better' than hip-hop and so I must conclude you're full of shit.

''julio, isn't there a thread about skronking saxophones you need to get to?''

which is where I belong, no? sorry but I'd rather argue with ppl on pop threads. i'll stick around for a while and have my fun...

hip-hop = legitimate ergo hip-hop /= 'pop'

rockist?

but even if you accept his dated premise, he might be right about film & food but when it comes to music (& lit?), americans of chritigau's ilk look down their noses at euro "vulgarity" all the time: e.g. the Brits and their hype-happy weekly music press, those trashy euro techno remakes of hit songs, those naiive euro rock bands who ape the authentic rock of the colonies, the eurovision contest, etc. When Americans say an american music act is "big in Europe", it is practically synonymous for "they're inauthentic, gimmicky, & known as frauds or has-beens at home". (NB: just outlining some common cliches about euro pop culture, not my own). It could be argued that a lot of the basic tenets of rockism have been propagated by The Dean & his generation of critics as a defense mechanism/backlash against America's perceived vulgarity in Euro eyes.

Really though, he didn't say much, did he?

He might not have said much, but he did say it calmly and with grace (and humor), so why not?

http://www.calendarlive.com/music/hilburn/cl-ask-hilburn.storygallery

"I understand that you were a big fan of Throbbing Gristle some twenty years ago or so, though apparently a number of people who turned up at a show you recommended had real problems with it! Could you explain your memories of the show, and what you think about the various bands that came from that group, like Coil and Psychic TV?"

So let's see if he answers.

It's a very good question! But it requires a live chat scenario.

"Beer. They have good beer."

"How-bad-American-beer-is thing..."

we already are!

I won't say that this "cultural war" Christgau speaks of doesn't exist (maybe it does in some highbrow non-pop culture circles that I have no access to, in which case, why talk about it on rockcritics.com?), but I sure as hell have never seen any evidence of it- far as I'm concerned, the USA won that one long before I was born, as I most certainly do not know any European under the age of 60 whose grasp on pop culture isn't irrevocably American, from tv shows to movies to music. Whatever snoobish attitudes we may have about the stereotypes of American behaviour (partly self defence in the face of our increasing redundancy, partly stereotypes instilled into us by American media, ha!), there is nary a Brit, Frenchman, German or Italian that is not totally in love with at least one piece of American produced art/entertainment.

Furthermore, no one who listens to any sort of popular music today can rightfully claim *not* to be America's bitch (so to speak), and no one with a decent grasp on where the stuff comes from would be able to discard the truth that it is overwhelmingly an African thing.

As a kid who's (ahem) been around (lived in Germany and Portugal, have friends in Italy, England and Sweden), I can truthfully say that European snobbism of America exists, but pop culture is the one facet where it most certainly does NOT have any impact whatsoever.

his creepiness is well documented even on this forum. are you him?

Ha! You haven't been on ilx long if you think that.

I don’t but yeah I’m a n00b. sometimes idk if ppl are only taking issue w things bc it’s me who’s saying them

Maybe you should observe the loose custom here of keeping ILM largely free of political posturing.

lol

"also I don’t have a decades long record of being a music press gatekeeper being paid for writing about musicians’ vaginas"

What is this in reference to?

His review of PJ Harvey's Stories From the City, Stories From the Sea, perhaps?

Re: "defund the police," he put his argument better in a tweet at AOC:

I'm a 78-year-old white man who favors radical police reform and hopes you in particular get everything you want from politics and life. But I'm also a veteran editor who knows an unfortunate turn of phrase when he sees one. "Defund the police" does more harm than good. Period.

i.e. it's not what the phrase actually means that's terrible, it's how it's been widely and easily misinterpreted. That's more of a knock on the general populace, and we don't need another lesson on how dumb collective intelligence can be.

uninterested in giving him any benefit of the doubt here, or anywhere

Hes right about defund the police being a misleading and alienating phrase.

fuck america

good morning!

(xposts) You really should write him directly and express these concerns--there's still time to get him to see the errors of his way.

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xgsezm.php

would "your a dick" constitute harrassment

It would constitute misspelling.

He will be humbled in any event, and very likely will thank you for your honesty.

No one man has done more to help create the American police state than Robert Christgau it's true

He only gave Straight Outta Compton a B, what more evidence do you need?

i don't enjoy agreeing with Christgau about anything but the album is very front-loaded

i'm more just perplexed by him caring about merry christmas vs. happy holidays, seems out of character (though i will defer to those who know his writing better than i)

i just assumed that was some old man bullshit

i guess it makes sense that his "oldschool NYC straightshooting hardman" routine would lead him to some lib-owning stuff like this. plus randomly attaching a pointlessly-divisive opinion to something just because he can is kind of xgau 101

idk what he's saying makes sense in a world where there is a robust "center" coalition in this country but the election of Donald Trump kinda destroys that whole illusion

it frustrates me to no end that the GOP is the party that figured that out

while the so called good guys are still making policy based on an imaginary center-right couple living in Chuck Schumer's head

💣

fuck america

― Left, Monday, 21 December 2020 10:29 (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together for Left!

Just realized one of the tedious arselicking talking heads in this shitty Beatles documentary I'm watching until something better comes on is Christgau.

IIRC, there's a whole chapter on arselicking in his autobiography.

It's funny to see him in some proto-punk documentary - he's aloof in discussing the Velvet Underground but gets animated when it comes to praising his beloved New York Dolls.

cool to see ned/xgau pic upthread as i believe i am just out of frame (having fun with all my friends)

He's rarely a good talking head in a documentary, where you need someone who can get everything they need to say in a brief segment while doing it in an interesting or entertaining way - ironic for a guy whose best criticism tends to be in the Consumer Guide entries. My favorite craptacular moment is when someone interviewed him for a local Minneapolis PBS documentary on Hüsker Dü and he waffles on his take on their music, calling them "the best band of the '80s" and immediately following it with a loud and deliberate "which isn't saying that much."

4chan kids will prolly be running web 3.0 in 7 to 10 years, and they only care about xgau, scaruffi and fantano,

― bozack horseman (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:20 PM (nine years ago)

Wait people care about Xgau other than us old weirdos?

The rym/musicbook/whoever kids knew him first through his Wikipedia dominance but I don't know anyone who straight up follows him like I do scaruffi and fantano.

Like I know people who follow scaruffi and fantano that means, AHEM

younger people love dunking on xgau (because wikipedia thinks his takes are so important) though a lot of them seem to think he's way more of a basic wenneresque boomer instead of the one of one kind of freak he actually is

fantano or scaruffi fandom seems like such a chan culture centric phenomenon and I don't know why ILM always assumes every music fan under 40 is into that shit. most people just listen to their friends and favourite artists recommendations it's a specific type of nerd who actually seeks out critics

afaict scaruffi was obscure before the 'the fact that' blew up and presumably most artists his fans would google would be treated to a (really tedious) write-up from him, giving the impression of knowing a lot of stuff. so he effectively became the old stuff man to those for whom fantano fills the new stuff criteria.

and actually, though i alluded to knowing people of this sort - because i have very much so in the past - my various close music circles which have all been critic-seeking haven't been so for them two. for instance there's a contingent of people aware of reynolds, some possibly through k-punk, and that has led to other discoveries.

From a tweet prompted discussion of critics a response on Xgau

https://x.com/misterminsoo/status/1708565790566334801?s=46&t=u2ZSlsY3trRV36IPP6jNDQ

lol that’s great!

ha, this popped up on facebook today. me and the boys at harvard 10 years ago.

https://scontent-bos5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.18172-8/1073050_10152588755537137_256138507_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=9b3078&_nc_ohc=hB-UIs7DWR8AX_MSxEt&_nc_ht=scontent-bos5-1.xx&oh=00_AfCoGSdlkvepzLUWx8xoxM0qs6rFkEV89bQcmugBcjaT2w&oe=655BEB92

awww, nice photo

OMG

Poking around for some reviews of this particular album and had to roll my eyes at this guy, of all people, calling out misogyny:

NRBQ: Grooves in Orbit [Bearsville, 1983]
They really are virtuosos of fun, a major accomplishment that makes for minor records. They're so dedicated to the perpetual adolescence of pure (or purist) rock and roll that they imitate youth--Joey Spampimato is the most egregious coy-boy in this band of players first and singers second--rather than redefining youthfulness, a more appropriate task for artists of their advancing years. I know they're only kidding (har har), but at some level these are guys who still believe a real girl (not woman, please) sews your shirt and shines your shoes. B

Out of curiosity I looked up his reviews of PJ Harvey. More or less overwhelmingly positive, start to finish, and yet the first few reviews are just shades of edgelord yuck, imo.

For once the thread title seems apposite. A NZ reader goads Christgau into a tetchy response by speaking the obvious:

Harris is the establishment. Trump is viewed by his voters as a counter-establishment force, albeit uncontrollable, self-centered, and potentially dangerous...
- Ricardo Pini, New Zealand

May I suggest that unless American politics is your academic specialty or something you refrain from gross generalizations about a nation half a world away from yours. It's certainly true that today's active Democrats have a collegiate/academic tinge/orientation that diluted or strained their moral compass and damaged their appeal to large swaths of the working-class electorate. But the "establishment" is the people with too much money, not the people who inflect a major field of discourse...

LOL, I guess if you're American you can define words to mean whatever is most convenient for your argument.

May I suggest that unless American politics is your academic specialty or something you refrain from gross generalizations about a nation half a world away from yours.

Pot, meet kettle.

Shonen Knife [Gasatanka/Giant, 1990]
The problem with the Japanese is that they don't know the difference between a Ramones song and a Wrigley commercial. But we do, or should, and these are Wrigley commercials, in which three lookee-no-touchee geishas do a good job of half implying that the supercatchy "Banana Fish" is a J.D. Salinger reference--in other words, that they condescend to American culture as much as American counterculture condescends to them. Unfortunately, the only thing that might make this ambiguity interesting would be musical dimensions they have no time, use, or aptitude for. C+

Not to mention this bit from the Pizzicato Five pan:

And although I might get it if I were Japanese, I'm not. In fact, I could even surmise that their failure to reveal the emotional core that glints out from Madonna and Waters and especially the Pet Shop Boys bespeaks a repressed culture that has zero claim on an alien's empathy. But I won't. B

There are probably dozens of similar jibes at France, the UK, and "Yurrup" but those two always stuck in my craw, even as I agree with the basic aesthetic assessment of each.

4chan kids will prolly be running web 3.0 in 7 to 10 years, and they only care about xgau, scaruffi and fantano,

― bozack horseman (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:20 PM (ten years ago) bookmarkflaglink

you've finally lost it

― famous instagram God (waterface), Wednesday, September 10, 2014 12:20 PM (ten years ago) bookmarkflaglink

three lookee-no-touchee geishas

Jesus fuck. I wouldn't have printed that when I was writing copy for literal porn magazines. He's such an irredeemable piece of shit.

I always liked this review. A fave record of mine too

Reformation: Post TLC [Narnack, 2007]
This does get weird, quiet and slack second half, although, really, why shouldn't his wife sing "The Wright Stuff"? In any case, the first half regales and/or lacerates with the mad purity and/or skeptical hilarity Mark E. Smith was put on the planet to take to his grave. Recorded with Los Angeles pickup musicians, although now I guess we just call them the Fall, immediately after his band of seven years ditched him in Phoenix, it states its business out of the box: "I think it's over now I think it's ending/I think it's over now I think it's beginning." Then it does its business with "Insult Song," a six-minute shaggy groove story about being stuck with ree-tards from the Los Angel-eeze district. A-

"three lookee-no-touchee geishas"
Nice one. Nothing wrong with hilarious criticism

Not even Morrissey would stoop to that one