Smashing Pumpkins: Fresh Fruit or Rotten Veg?

Classic, full up, full stop. I'm glad I've never had even the slightest opportunity to interact with Billy Corgan in real life, he'd drive me crazy, I figure. But oh man, all that good music. I love it all down to every last strangled squeal in his voice. Refer to these entries in the FT 136 list for more slavering if you really care:

Adore

Siamese Dream

Mellon Collie

I think I liked the Smashing Pumpkins okay with Gish and Siamese Dream because, although they were really just classic rock slightly warmed over, it was updated slightly and had some good associations in my life. I remember listening to Gish fairly often with someone who...well, never mind the details. When Mellon Collie came out, though, it became very clear to me that they were really a band who worshipped at the altar of classic rawk, esp. the bad overwrought and overblown kind, and that's really where I lost interest. When they scaled back on subsequent albums, there really wasn't much good material there, and I couldn't really be bothered to find the good stuff anymore.

But not by much.

Would be classic for Siamese Dream, but dud for Adore, Machina and the fact that they could have edited Mellon Collie down to a single disc brilliancy - and didn't. Also, dud for bad song titles.

I read a great thing in Gina Arnold's book "Kiss This" about how the Bullet With Butterfly Wings video was based around this painting of children trying to get out of being trapped in a coal mine or something, and how incredibly obnoxious it was that Billy Corgan would equate his angst with such horrendous suffering. I liked parts of "Siamese Dream", but I think one album of semi- romantic angst and mediocre prog-Sabbath guitar work is enough. So Dud, for sticking around too long, and for inexplicably blaming their failure on Britney.

'1979' is ok, but not as good as its title. Everything else is excrement.

.. then they started putting out shitty albums. I lost interest after Melon Collie. bloated wank. and his voice became ever-more- hideous. such sludge.. they'll be most useful in that regard for documenting very clearly a band just completely losing their artistic vision and soul. I've only heard 'Machina' once, but it was so lifeless...

that said, I'll list a few of their best rare tracks so that brave souls can attempt to get another perspective on the band. they did have a few obscure b-sides and such that won't likely turn up on any best hits collection. search for these on your favorite music- trading platform ..

* daughter - a rare demo from 1989 or so, just two minutes of ethereal guitar & singing

* siamese dream - the song, not the album. very lo-fi, scratchy acid folk piece

* pulseczar - feedback-drenched psychedelia. slightly twee, too.

* their cover of Depeche Mode's 'Never Let Me Down Again' - better than the original. very light touch, just guitar, bass, drums and for once not the 'soundwall' approach ... brings you up to an imagined peak, then lets you down ..

* their cover of 'Dancing in the Moonlight' - soft, acoustic. if you don't mind his voice, this is a great song.

* obscured - a slow, drifting rock song. spacey, but subdued. nice.

* smiley - slow, simple pop. his voice on the deep end for once.

* Eye - darkwave/synthpop song from the Lost Highway soundtrack, great if you like that sort of thing

* the Moby remix of '1979' - doesn't contain anything of the original song except for that skipping vocal 'tweee-ee' effect super- slowed down. the actual music itself isn't much like Moby's usual fare, especially not like 'Play' -- imagine if the Boards of Canada had a VERY bad trip. I love this song.

* Drown -- not the most rare Pumpkins song, it was on the Reality Bites soundtrack. 3 or so minutes of rock, then 4 of the best kind of guitar feedback drone, yumm..

* Starla - only if you're into guitar wankery. Corgan goes off for about 5 minutes, and most of it is actually pretty entertaining, if not exactly Fennesz..

gish, '89 demos, set the ray to jerry, cherry, obscured: classic i believe i speak for god album(s): dud everything else: i listened to it too much when i was 15

So, continuuing with my theory, if one were to just sort of cut and re-record, you'd probably have about two good albums out of all the b-sides, machina 1 & 2, and adore stuff out there, post-melon collie. Which is what, eight albums (including a double album) total? In less than 8 years? Sounds classic to me.

Or I could just say I like 1979 and a few of their other songs to sound hip.

Gish and Pisces Iscariot are also grate, and MCIS and Adore have a few nice songs (might as well join in on the "1979" praise here). Haven't heard anything off of Machina but I have a feeling I don't want to ;)

I'm afraid I must object--Moby's remix is horribly dull. It's essentially just Billy's vocals over a repetitive electro beat (and he doesn't even go to any lengths to actually change the order of the verses). I'm a big fan of Moby's early work, but I can't stand to listen to this.

Half-Classic/Half-Dud. And why wasn't "The End Is The Beginning Is The End" or whatever that Last-Pumpkins-Video-In-Pants Batman song was called on Greatest Hits?

And this is a bad thing? Excuse me, I have to listen to some Muslimgauze now.

And why wasn't "The End Is The Beginning Is The End" or whatever that Last-Pumpkins-Video-In-Pants Batman song was called on Greatest Hits?

I think everyone involved with that film removed it from their resume.

But the real reason I post here is merely to drop this bomb you can find posted at http://www.billycorgan.com/

You know that beatles song 'I'm so tired, I haven't slept a wink....'? I'm having one of those weeks...I just got 2 new kittens, brothers and sisters, named miss sami and mister thom cat...they are the best of friends, which is wonderful, but being young, they are into everything, including some things I didn't know you could get into...mister thom also seems to want to wake me up at 5am to say hello...well, the music for the rock and roll record is going really swell, just starting to get into a groove writing some songs...predominately focusing on melodies right now, leaving the words for a bit further down the road, which is unusual, but necessary...in the months to come, I am going to share some things with you that you have never heard me say...that doesn't mean I'm rewriting history, that means that I'm going to tell you the truth about who I am and what I believe in my heart...a lot of things that I have said thru the years seemed confusing, like I was hiding somethin!g, and often times I was...'why', you might ask? Many times I hid things to protect my band mates...for example, its been almost 4 years since I went on my friend tami's radio show and announced that the pumpkins were breaking up...that day, when she asked why we were breaking up, I said something silly like 'I'm tired of fighting britney blah blah'...and it went on to be widely quoted, as if I was breaking up my love, my band, because of some pop star...13 years of my life, and you know, let's pack it in cause their teeth are whiter...by saying that, I was seen as someone who was crying foul, taking his ball, and going home...which was sad cause it wans't true at all...The truth of the matter is is that james iha broke up the smashing pumpkins...not me, not jimmy, but james...did it help that d'arcy was fired for being a mean spirited drug addict, who refused to get help? No, that didn't help keep the band together, not at all...it made it very hard to go on, but we soldier! ed thru it even though our hearts were broken...But d'arcy didn't break up the band, we didn't let her...and jimmy didn't want to break up the band, not at that time...and I would have gone on forever...the smashing pumpkins were essentially my entire life...a dream I still believe in...many friends at that time suggested letting james leave, so jimmy and I could continue on under the name...but I was too loyal to the man I had started the whole thing with, and I protected him until the very end...right up until the last show on dec 2, 2000, when he thanked d'arcy on stage, but not the 2 men standing next to him...and I was loyal until he left the metro without even saying goodbye, or an 'its been great boys!', or a simple 'I love you' to us...no, james iha left the metro that night without saying goodbye to the 2 people he had won and lost and traveled the world with...so I won't be protecting him anymore...and I won't be protecting a whole lot of other people anymore...not because I don't love them (I do!!) but because ! I love myself too...I want to say one more thing, and that is I appreciate you reading this...+I want to remind you that I love you...God has given me the strength to say that to you, and I hope that you don't hide who you are...does it make me sad that I have hid myself all these years? No, it was what I had to do to survive, or at least what I 'thought' I needed to do...but surviving is not enough...we all deserve to flourish, and to know happiness and joy...that is my new dream...the smashing pumpkins gave me that, and I am eternally grateful...especially to those that shared in the dream with me...even if you bought just one cd, or came to a show, you gave us that chance...we thank you for that...even if we don't always know how to show it...be well!! William

Wow.

So, best of a bad lot, then. Neither classic nor dud. Good.

Say! Anybody heard that one album they did where they leaked it onto the Internet for free simply to piss off their record company?

i did not feel that a cd release on a major label that i was out there trying to hawk with a bunch of immoral band mates (that does not include jimmy, by the way...he is one of best men i know) was a place to talk about the deepest of issues...no, the internet is!!!

In other news, he's now gone public with an email address. Guess who's gonna have 1000+ emails by Sunday?

01. Melon Collie And The Infinite Sadness
02. Tonight, Tonight
03. Jellybelly
04. Here Is No Why
05. Bullet With Butterfly Wings
06. Where Boys Fear To Tread
07. Thirty-Three
08. 1979
09. Thru The Eyes Of Ruby
10. We Only Come Out At Night
11. Beautiful
12. Lily
13. By Starlight
14. Farewell And Goodnight

Truth be told, I could live without "Tonight" and "Thirty-Three" -
I guess I included them out of some obligation to remain in the
realm of the remotely possible. Billy is rather proud of these
songs, I highly doubt he would have dispensed them.

this has all the problems of the last few records... sounds like shit, songs feel like they end too abruptly, billy's vocals and lyrics have deteriorated incredibly.... but idk for once it kinda hangs together and has some of the old grandeur. gonna stick with it

“goeth the fall” is great

though one would have hoped that, by now, Billy knew the proper spelling of "goth"

Does Jimmy get to drum more here? Or is Billy still using him mostly to imitate a drum machine?

nothing but live-sounding drums on this one

thanks!

I was at Electrical Audio studio B when they were recording the drums in Studio A. They were filling all 24 tracks of the tape machine with just drums.

I was going to buy those Ignaffo CDs of early stuff that came out but it’s like 60 bucks for 2 CDs are something, fucking corgan

Not that I want to pay that either, but where are those even for sale?

It was on Madame Zuzus emporium or whatever https://madamezuzus.com

ok, they were $20 each. But still. I bet they come in digisleeves too.

hah, missed those. sold out, so apparently enough people were willing.

Loved the new album on first listen, sounded like the best thing they’ve done in ages. It’s a pretty heavy record, filled with guitars and drums. I actually think his voice sounds great on this one compared to the last few.

finally sampled a few tracks and I'm cautiously optimistic about the rest. wish his voice wasn't pushed so forward in the mix being my biggest annoyance so far.

It’s also the most Zwan-like album since Zwan.

one thing we can maybe agree on is his lyrics from the past decade make me appreciate the economy of cedric bixler-zavala

i was pretty tired when i first heard this, it'll probably grow on me, but as of now it's not a patch on my single disc reduction of atum or even a ten-track edit of cyr. people complain about billy doing dance-pop constantly but i think that's the really good recent stuff, and the prog stuff is usually directionless soup

ppl wanna hear guitars and drums tho, i get it

someone please get this band a producer

he really did oceania all over again here. love "pentagrams" it's so stupid

the "come on atone let's RUN AWAY" part of "sighommi" is like the best thing he's written since machina and then the song just ENDS, lmao, leave 'em wanting more i guess

there are some hints of how they could be a good band here but corgan still is uninterested in writing actual tunes and the production & mix do no favours as usual

you know... this thing is pretty good

i hate being a late corgan apologist, he's objectively the most ridiculous idiot who ever lived, but... the old (machina-era, mostly) feeling is sorta getting restored here, i appreciate it. "pentagrams" is stuck in my head all the time but i really love the run of "who goes there" -> "999" -> "goeth the fall"... not only good songs that take you through a variety of moods both fierce and vulnerable (that's classic pumpkins to me, fierce and vulnerable), but like... well-sequenced! feels like they belong together!

With respect to ivy I put this on this morning after I woke and blazed up and unfortunately couldn’t make it though 2 songs and I used to jam zwan all the time when it came out

oh i'm not expecting to sway anyone, the only two sp records i dislike are shiny and oh so bright and monuments to an elegy, otherwise i've been doomed to listen to and ultimately enjoy, against my will, the work of billy corgan for the rest of my stupid life

Pretty certain for me it’s a case of “it’s me, not the band” and jimmy is still a monster, one of the best, happy he’s still around

xpost See I pulled the ripcord when he took refuge in the old band name so his final release was TheFutureEmbrace and everything since is clearly fanfic.

that's honestly a great way to think of the two distinct eras

I like to pretend that after Zwan happened he retired from public life to preside over a cat refuge and operate an artisanal tea house

Low-key Moby tea collab

Hey, why not?

In this alternate reality Corgan gets along really well with everyone and is much loved and respected by the next generation of rockers

And most importantly does not appear with and utterly and loudly disdains Alex Jones. Sorry, dude’s dead to me.

I love the pettiness of this headline

https://www.esquire.com/style/news/a44174/billy-corgan-infowars/

I’m with you, Ned. I tried to give this a listen but I know too much 😤

I recently started listening to Bandsplain and the Pumpkins episode is really good.

― Cow_Art, Saturday, May 13, 2023 12:07 AM (one year ago)

Thanks, I listened to this and it was fun despite being a bit too long (over 6 hours across two episodes). The bit about Corgan comparing Thurston Moore to Paula Abdul was hilarious. I haven't been a long term Pumpkins fan but I find Corgan really likable despite so much.

I lost track of Corgan and the Pumpkins after the Cubs' ill-fated 2003 season* and never bothered to get back on the train after the band was re-formed, but in memory I thought he was a likable guy. Given what's been posted here, it's probably best that I haven't kept up. I was never a huge Pumpkins fan, but I still have the second and third albums which were inescapable in the mid-'90s, especially as a kid growing up in Illinois - I have my reservations about them but still find them enjoyable.

*I didn't really know anything about the band until after they broke up. Besides their appearance on The Simpsons, all I remember about Corgan outside of the band's music is his fandom for the Cubs. I still remember the game where he was a guest in the broadcast booth with Steve Stone and Chip Carey, which feels more awkward in hindsight. And he led the sing-a-long during the 7th-inning stretch of Game 7 during the 2003 NLCS. (There's a clip of it on YouTube, but it cuts out his opening remarks where he tells everyone witnessing the Cubs' agonizing collapse that "we're fans no matter what happens" or something to that effect.) Based on that, I thought he was like Eddie Vedder, a solid hometown guy who happened to make it big in the rock world...

"Goeth the Fall" is a great latter-day Pumpkins song! I even enjoy some of the 'rawk' songs that Billy thinks the fans crave.

I saw SP last month and despite everything it's just a pleasure to see Billy, James, and Jimmy seemingly on such good terms and enjoying being on stage together. I know nothing of James's politics, but he seems like a relaxed, funny dude, and God knows what it's been like being around Billy for the past 35+ years.

i love this album as much as i hate myself for enjoying it at all

Billy Corgan and Bill Burr are half-brothers!

https://www.nme.com/news/music/smashing-pumpkins-billy-corgan-and-bill-burr-meet-to-see-if-really-half-brothers-3831021

Well, the article doesn't go THAT far. But there is a bit of a Frank Sinatra/Ronan Farrow vibe here, yeah.

I also saw a clip of them talking about it. There are definitely some doubters out there saying it's a bit, but the two both seemed fairly genuine.

First few minutes are horribly awkward

Enjoying the new album, I haven't heard any of their stuff from the last two decades and I'm impressed by how much odder his voice has gotten.

I gather our boy is on a certain podcast again. Not that I would listen. Billy don’t be a fascist.

https://www.lyricopera.org/shows/upcoming/2025-26/a-night-of-mellon-collie-and-infinite-sadness/

Trying to decide if I wanna go or not. On one hand, Mellon collie was so important to me as a teen, so were the other 90s albums they made, and I’ve never seen them live. On the other, Corgan is such a fucking dick and his association with alex jones is unforgivable.

He’s still never walked back the Jones appearances IIRC so that’s reason enough to skip.

It’s also some orchestral thing and not the Pumpkins.

I was so sure in "Edin" that he said "kingdoms turn to playdough", but none of the online lyrics say anything like that.

Enjoying his podcast series, really unpredictable guest choices, I don't own anything by any of them; never even heard of Dale Bozzio / Missing Persons but she was really entertaining and strange, seems like they're going to record something together.

Liked his Broken Record Podcast interview too, that thing about his encounters with fans in airports is bizarre. He said a Machina 1+2 omnibus release is coming soon.

Xps yeah I realized that even my intense teenage nostalgia wasn’t strong enough to overcome my dislike of who he is as a person, and I just wouldn’t enjoy it.

I do think they will reform, they are like the modern Grateful Dead, they will still be playing in 2025.
― james e l, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

pre-9/11 poster james e l 75% otm