Why did the pazz and jop poll stop rating music videos?

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They did a "top ten music videos" for a period in the 80s...what happened?

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 4 October 2004 03:03 (twenty-one years ago)

seven months pass...
"The EP ballot will return next year by semisemipopular demand, replacing videos, where only a third of the voters exercised their franchise this year, with the Chief Poobah among the missing. " Christgau's Pazz Jop Essay 1987

Do you still care?, Friday, 3 June 2005 19:54 (twenty years ago)

Had they kept it up, interest would have surely increased - especially in the mid-90s and early-00s. Possibly not so-much today though, since videos in general have lost quality in the past 3 or 4 years.

billstevejim (billstevejim), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:37 (twenty years ago)

videos haven't lost quality as much as prominence.

The Good Dr. Bill (The Good Dr. Bill), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:41 (twenty years ago)

I dunno, I feel like the music video cliches have really ossified over the last couple of years. In the early '90s, it was a kind of delicious flippancy to say "you know, a video is first and foremost a commercial"; now it would be stupid to even think otherwise. The bands-as-brands are generally being sold much harder these days. I would guess that the fault lies equally with the mainstream r'n'b and hip-hop's nouveau riche-ism (everything must look expensive) and the hack directors happy to accomodate it (Dave Meyers, the formerly interesting Mark Romanek, David LaChapelle). It also seems like only an extremely well established band can get away with doing a cheap or minimalist video, or a video they're not in (haven't seen any of those in a while!).

joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 3 June 2005 23:49 (twenty years ago)

hey they still had this in the mid-90s, see for yourself:

http://robertchristgau.com/xg/pnj/pjres95.php


Videos 1995


1.
Bjork: "It's Oh So Quiet" (Spike Jonze)
33

2.
Michael Jackson: "Scream" (Mark Romanek)
26

3.
PJ Harvey: "Down by the Water" (Maria Mochnacz)
20

4.
The Beatles: "Free as a Bird" (Joe Pytka)
19

5.
Madonna: "Bedtime Story" (Mark Romanek)
16

6.
Elastica: "Connection" (David Mould)
13

TLC: "Waterfalls" (F. Gary Gray)
13

8.
Skee-Lo: "I Wish" (Marty Thomas)
12

Smashing Pumpkins: "Bullet With Butterfly Wings" (Samuel Bayer)
12

Yo La Tengo: "Tom Courtenay" (Phil Morrison)
12

Vichitravirya XI, Saturday, 4 June 2005 00:27 (twenty years ago)

Those are all pretty good!

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Saturday, 4 June 2005 02:25 (twenty years ago)

I think the idea that videos are worse now is ridiculous. Either that or you people don't watch many hip-hop videos. ("No Letting Go" by Wayne Wonder, "Get Busy" by Sean Paul, "My Block" by Scarface, "Drop it like its Hot" by Snoop, "Love at First Sight" by Kylie, etc etc all point to this idea being a pernicious myth.

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:35 (twenty years ago)

And there are still lots of lo-budget hip-hop vids too, obviously!

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:36 (twenty years ago)

Videos are stupid.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:39 (twenty years ago)

It's kind of weird to rate which ad campaign did the best job fucking with your conception of the music you're also trying to rate.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:41 (twenty years ago)

Nah I like them a lot. When they're good. Oh cmon miccio, its not like music isn't about image anyway.

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:47 (twenty years ago)

I enjoy some videos myself, and often when they're really bad. If I had to do a top ten for this year I'd have to include the Backstreet Boys' video for "Incomplete." I can watch that over and over. And actually maybe it should be up there so when you see a video and song that both got high ratings you can figure this is a song you really need to see the video for to understand why its so good - see Beastie Boys' "Sabotage."

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:52 (twenty years ago)

Videos are still really stupid though. They forcefully fuck with how you perceive a song and artist and while sometimes I'm grateful a lot of times I'm not. Critics whose basic interaction with pop music comes only from MTV tend to have wack sensibilities cuz they associate fun songs with inescapable examples of fashion sensibilities they don't enjoy.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 14:59 (twenty years ago)

I think so few videos get significant airplay now that it would be hard to make a top 10 list without putting a tremendous amount of effort into the project.

Lyra Jane (Lyra Jane), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:03 (twenty years ago)

wow miccio in vid-hating shocker, I really didn't see that one coming

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:04 (twenty years ago)

I was just thinking a lot lately about how I need to start keeping tallies on favorite videos so that I can do a end of year top 10. I have an unhealthy addiction to watching music videos. of course, since BET and CMT are the only basic cable channels that play hours of videos in the daytime, I end up seeing a lot more of their playlists than MTV or VH1.

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:06 (twenty years ago)

They're fun to talk about (anybody who reads my blog knows I love to) and fascinating but yeah, they're ads and ads suck so they suck.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:14 (twenty years ago)

in fact I prefer videos that are blatantly selling the artist rather than the kind of art pieces that tend to get love. Rob Sheffield made a good point once somewhere about how the video for Van Halen's "Right Now" was easily turned into an ad for Crystal Pepsi while Van Halen's "Jump" was successful in making you want to buy VAN HALEN.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:16 (twenty years ago)

I really liked the video to Tru's "Where U From." I mean, its just a lot of people jumping around/dancing, but thats what its all about really. Another vid I've liked lately...Trick Daddy's "Sugar," the new Juelz Santana (although its a DILIH rip, really). I'm trying to remember what other videos from recent years really stand out to me...the Ignition remix vid with that 360 degree shot of Kell's cornrows...Queens of the Stone Age had one video that I remember better than the song.

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:34 (twenty years ago)

best videos of the past year IMO: Common's "The Corner" (especially for the Panic Room credits. and I didn't like the song at all until the video!) and My Chemical Romance's "I'm Not Okay".

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:41 (twenty years ago)

>t's kind of weird to rate which ad campaign did the best job fucking with your conception of the music you're also trying to rate<

ha ha, if you go back to the pazz and jop comments for the first year that videos were ranked (like, 1983 and 1984 or thereabouts) this is pretty much exactly what all the stodgy old critics from guitar magazines say! (also, the great r.j. smith, who asked if it was okay if he voted for some t bone burnett poster he saw in the east village, since ad campagns are ad campaigns afer all. i think somebody else asked if the zapruder film was still eligible!) anyway, i also didn't expect this from miccio (who i'd always assumed enjoyed videos a lot), ,either. personally, i have no idea how videos are more "stupid" than haircuts or live shows or interview articles or album covers; those all fuck with what people think about music, too. or they're PART of the music - take your pick. to me it just seems some videos are more fun to watch than others, though. (i say that as somebody who voted for the chicago bears shufflin crew one year, not to mention genesis's "land of confusion" though i still think the song kinda sucks, etc. those didn't make me like the songs more either, though a song has to at least be bearable {or chicago bearable maybe} for me to like the video. videos and songs are two different animals; i never had any problem separating them. though yeah, sure, critics would tend to fall for those really boringly "clever" and expensive peter gabriel vids and shit like that all the time, and ignore skid row's "18 and life" {though mary gaitskill didn't, in one of her novels} or cinderella's "uncle tom's cabin" or corina's "temptation" or whatever those hilarious fat boys and ricky skaggs ones were, but so what? critics fall for *lots* of bullshit! why would anybody expect vids to be different? in any case, i miss voting for them. and eps,too. and reissues, and compilations. and i hope the voice brings those ballots back someday -- as soon as somebody else besides me is doing the tabulating!)

(ps as for videos not going downhill, you have to check out the country ones and the latin ones, not just the rap ones, which can indeed be great. can't remember when was the last time i gave a shit about any "rock" ones, but no doubt i've missed some. and anthony, if you can watch that backstreet vid over and over, you should probably consider it GOOD, not bad! ability to watch a video over and over is what MAKES it good, as far as i'm concerned.)

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:47 (twenty years ago)

xhuxk otm

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 15:57 (twenty years ago)

watching mtv's "rock countdown" on sunday nights is totally depressing, perhaps even more for the videos than the music therein, especially for the glut of Hawthorne Heights/Story of the Year/Thursday type low budget emo performance videos. only marginally worse than the 'clever'/arty videos by hipster-approved bands that I see every time I catch any MTV2.

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

I'm surprised you guys are shocked that I can find something stupid and enjoy it at the same time.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:02 (twenty years ago)

I probably just have too much respect for p'n'j and music to want to see a poll that treats videos reverently included.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

So don't treat them reverently! I sure never did (and neither did lots of other voters, to be honest.) Just have fun with them, for crissakes!

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:05 (twenty years ago)

Dude, there's no fear I wouldn't have fun with them. I just don't want to have to see the damn thing.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

I'm more surprised at your boring "they're ads and ads suck so they suck" verdict, I thought you were able to appreciate such non-musical ephemera without looking down upon it. (xp)

Al (sitcom), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:07 (twenty years ago)

I hate ads, dude. I really do.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:09 (twenty years ago)

I mean, if anything, I'd say pazz & jop voters in general treated the videos LESS reverently (at least early on, when I was paying more attention) than albums. Just like EPs -- there is something so random and transitory about them, that lots of voters didn't *mind* submitting goofy lists. I'd have to go back to the lists to demonstrate this, and maybe the winner's lists did get more reverent over time, I dunno. But anything that makes people's ballots more entertaining to look at is fine with me!

xp

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:10 (twenty years ago)

(Give or take Skee-Lo -- which was a lot of fun -- that 1995 list above does seem pretty darn dull and reverent and annoying arsty and tasteful, I have to admit. Though I actually remember very few of those, actually. But I'm pretty sure the winner's lists were better in the '80s, when there were more ZZ Top and Art of Noise and, yeah, David Lee Roth videos to choose from.)

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:14 (twenty years ago)

according to that Purpology site the only two A worthy videos they've seen are Interpol and the Pernice Brothers. Cowboy Troy too but only in Nick Sylvester's second opinion, god bless.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:17 (twenty years ago)

and dude, Warrant did "Uncle Tom's Cabin"!

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

My Chemical Romance's "I'm Not Okay".

oh yeah I forgot about this, its great! I also recognize one of the neighborhoods in the Common vid which was kind of cool. I wasnt that amazed by it on the whole though - i liked the images in my head better than the ones on the screen.

(xhuxk otm upthread)

I need to start submitting stuff for purpology, i've been slacking. (Well, that and trying to find a job.)

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:29 (twenty years ago)

My Chemical Romance are definitely on my 'I'm very grateful you forcefully fucked with my concept of your songs, please do the entire album in video form' list.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

I think my favorite videos ever are those early Dre/snoop videos ("G Thang," "Dre Day," etc.) where Snoop is too shy to look into the camera and Dre sweats a lot, and everyone drives hoopties to the barbecues, and there are house parties and Snoop pretends he still lives with his parents (remember when rappers used to do that!?)

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:36 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, shit, oops, that was a total brainfart! Warrant, duh. I have been outed as a true hair-metal know-nothing; how will I ever live it down? Those idiot hair bands all sounded the same anyway. Just kidding. But anyway, the "Uncle Tom's Cabin" video was still everything Charlie Daniels's "Legend of Wooley Swamp" could have been, if he'd made a video for it, which I doubt he did.

xp

Anyway, I just found these lists in progress from these two respective years (handwritten, so *maybe* not what I actually ended up votiing for, I dunno) in my hall closet:

1986:
1, genesis - land of confusion
2. wally badarou - chief inspector
3. sly fox - let's go all the way
4, david lee roth - yankee rose
5. chicago bears shufflin' crew - superbowl shuffle
also rans (in apparent order of preference, hard to tell, and only the titles are listed on the legal pad sheet in most cases): peter gabriel - sledgehammer (!!!??? I must have been an appreciator of fine art at the time!); art of noise -legs (? a zz top cover? maybe not); love is the drug (artist unknown); mystic rhythms (rush, maybe?); ll cool j - i need love; public image ltd - rise; laurie anderson - language is a virus; leader of the pack (twisted sister??); all you can eat (um, probably the fat boys?); the fall - cruiser's creek; i wanna be a cowboy (i forget; some new wave band, and i think lemmy might've been in the video); zz top - velcro fly; steppenwolf - born to be wild (taco bell commercial featuring jim mcmahon).

1987:
1, warren zevon - leave my monkey alone
2. john mellencamp - paper in fire
3, debbie gibson - shake your love
4. cars - you are the girl
5. m/a/r/r/s - pump up the volume
also rans: was (not was) - hello dad i'm in jail; john mellencamp - i saw mommy kissing santa claus; pet shop boys - it's a sin; tesla - little suzi; ll cool j - going back to cali; squeeze - hourglass; poison - i won't forget you (though actually, in retrospect, i'd say this is AT BEST the third best video from their debut album); moody blues - in your wildest dreams ; bon jovi - livin' on a prayer.

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:41 (twenty years ago)

Snoop pretends he still lives with his parents (remember when rappers used to do that!?)

Now they live with their grandparents.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

Miccio, Rollie P. gave the Aesop Rock video for "Fast Cars" an "A" on purpology!

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:43 (twenty years ago)

oops, the 1986 list also includes something (between sledgehammer and legs) called "rock'n'roll petstore" by posch family. i think this was some goofy music-video-like cartoon that was playing on kids' TV shows (or stations -- did nickelodeon exist yet?) at the time, but I'm not sure.

xp

All those early '90s barbecue-rap videos (not just the snoop and dre ones), but "summertime" by dj jazzy jeff and fresh prince for instance) were wonderful, i totally agree.

xhuxk, Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:46 (twenty years ago)

haha forgot about Aesop Rock.

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

moody blues - in your wildest dreams

YES

swvl (vozick), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

All those early '90s barbecue-rap videos (not just the snoop and dre ones), but "summertime" by dj jazzy jeff and fresh prince for instance) were wonderful, i totally agree.

The Afros (remember them?) had a great one too, I seem to recall.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:17 (twenty years ago)

the New Radicals "You Get What You Give" video might be my favorite ever. Kids! At the mall! Fighting the power! YEAH!

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:20 (twenty years ago)

Now if only the song were any good. (I have deep rooted feelings about this, though I will allow for the fact that it essentially was the revival of Tears For Fears mid-eighties ultra-angst-epics years before Donnie Darko.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:24 (twenty years ago)

Ned! You appear to have forgotten:

Ppl who don't like the New Radicals have no soul

deej., Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO WOO
http://www.pearl-jam.com/vidcaps/videos/evjer04.jpg

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:30 (twenty years ago)

WOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOHHHHOHHHHOOOOOOOOOHHHH!!!
http://www.pearl-jam.com/vidcaps/videos/evjer03.jpg

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:31 (twenty years ago)

Videos
1. Nirvana: "In Bloom" (Kevin Kerslake) 23
2. Arrested Development: "Tennessee" (Milcho) 21
3. Sir Mix-a-Lot: "Baby Got Back" (Adam Bernstein) 17
4. Peter Gabriel: "Digging in the Dirt" (John Downer) 13
R.E.M.: "Drive" (Peter Care) 13
6. A Tribe Called Quest: "Scenario" (Jim Swafield) 12
Van Halen: "Right Now" (Mark Fenske) 12
8. Los Lobos: "Kiko and the Lavender Moon" (Ondrej Rudavsky) 11
RuPaul: "Supermodel" (Randy Barbato) 11
10. Nine Inch Nails: "Happiness in Slavery" (Jonathan Reiss) 9
Pearl Jam: "Jeremy" (Mark Pellington) 9

miccio (miccio), Saturday, 4 June 2005 17:34 (twenty years ago)

steppenwolf - born to be wild (taco bell commercial featuring jim mcmahon).

this has made this whole thread worthwhile

strng hlkngtn, Saturday, 4 June 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)


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