Odessey and Oracle vs Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

O&O, but neither are even close to SF Sorrow

Oooh, a toughie. Pepper is far from my favourite Beatles album, and I love O&O. I've never really thought of the two together as companions or competitors though.

What inspired this poll?

The sacred cow impulse.

A discussion I hada with a friend a few hours ago over which one of these two is the better pop/psychedelia/concept album.

She says Sgt. Pepper was more influential and historically important and blablah and I say that removed from context O&O actually feels like a full concept with a much richer sound and proves the Zombies, even without George Martin were much more able musicians, whereas the concept of Sgt Pepper seems to fall apart after 'with a little help from my friends' and after that it loses any sort of meaningful connection in ideas or sound palette and it just becomes an ordinary Beatles album. Thought it'd interesting to bring it over to ILM.

Two absolutely amazing albums that represent the pinnacle of both acts' work.

That said, O&O is actually the better one here. :)

That said I've always found them related. Both sacred cows released in the late 60s, grounded in psychedelic pop and conceptual albums by british invasion bands that were not really known for this kind of work.

Few of the acts behind the most famous psych albums were known for that kind of style. The ones that started out doing this style (Nirvana, Kaleidoscope and other bands who mostly got namesakes in the US later on ;) ) were never quite as famous.

Ah yeah they were also both signed to EMI and thus recorded in Abbey Road the same year.

O&O, but neither are even close to SF Sorrow

Absolute nuclear-grade truthbomb

"SF Sorrow" is also a great album, but not by any means close to these two milestones.

"Ogden's Nut Gone Flake" is also better than "SF Sorrow".

Pepper. Never warmed to Odyssey and Oracle.

Odessey.

O & O by a big margin. SF Sorrow'd better only if you count the singles tagged onto the CD. Ogden's is weak.

Ogden's is wonderful, and the narrator's cockney accent is even better than the music.

Odessey and Oracle certainly

O&O, but neither are even close to SF Sorrow

I don't even think of S.F. Sorrow as being in the same game as these two. It's absolutely better, of course.

No, it isn't. The only 60s album that can compare with these two timeless classics is "Pet Sounds".

both are high-quality psyche pop, but o&o is boring.

pepper. I agree, O&O isn't that exciting. I didn't hear it for years and year (actually, I think I first heard it three years ago) and my expectations had been raised way too high. It's alright but it's not in Pepper's sphere, even with the irritating things about Pepper (cloying songs, mainly), the thing is exceptionally recorded and mixed.

Never heard of The Pretty Things **Listening**

O&O for me.

Oddly enough, was listening to a mono copy of pepper on a mono built-in-speaker record player just yesterday (i.e. basically as it was originally heard by most people). Really drags. For 1967, I'd probably just go with The Who.

For '67 I'd go with Pink Floyd.

Possible non- Beatles/ Stones/ Who/ Kinks poll of 60s British albums - one per artist: SF Sorrow, O&O, Piper, Ogden's, anymore? Fairports, ISB nominations?

Dusty In Memphis should destroy that poll

^^^^

Didn't think of it - good call. Any more?

Five Leaves Left, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Led Zeppelin I and II, In the Court of the Crimson King, Disraeli Gears...

not a big fan of any of these actually

Colin Blunstone was a better singer than any of The Beatles, although Paul is close. I'd say Pepper has more interesting arrangements and recording techniques and overall variation in texture, but Odessey has more consistent songwriting. I went with Odessey.

"Five Leaves Left", "Disreali Gears" and the two Led Zep albums are not in this particular style of music at all. Led Zep and Cream are rock, Nick Drake was a very toned-down acoustic singer/songwriter while the others are all prime English psych pop albums. I wouldn't really say "Crimson King" quite fits in either, as that one was more a blueprint for 70s symphonic rock than a psych pop album.

But really, this was one of the greatest eras of music of all time. Nursery rhyme/Music Hall-influenced songs with hardly no R&B references at all, lots of vocal harmonies, crazy nursery-rhyme influenced surrealist lyrics about everything and nothing, lots of sitars, mellotrons and studio gimmickery. WONDERFUL! One of the best eras of music ever!!!

You think there's no R n'B in the Zombies?!

Between the Buttons?

xxp I was talking 60's British albums in general

You think there's no R n'B in the Zombies?!

Zombies, yeah. "Odessey & Oracle", not much. "Begin Here" surely contained a lot of R&B-ish tunes, although the singles/best ones had less of it.

Between the Buttons?

I would say "Their Majesties Satanic Request" fits in way better in this category.

Anyway, some UK albums from 67-68 that do fit in are:
Bee Gees: "The Bee Gees 1st"
Hollies: "Butterfly"
Kaleidoscope: "Tangerine Dream"
Moody Blues: Everything they released from 1967 through 1969/70
Nirvana: "The Story Of Simon Simopath" and "All Of Us"
Billy Nichols: "Would You Believe"
Status Quo: "Picturesque Matchstickable Messages From The Status Quo"
Skip Bifferty: "Skip Bifferty"

You think there's no R n'B in the Zombies?!

Zombies, yeah. "Odessey & Oracle", not much

LOL whut? "Care of Cell 44" and "I Want Her She Wants Me" could practically be H-D-H originals for the Supremes, and "Time of the Season" IS an R&B song.

I wanted to do a poll that would deliberately exclude the Beatles/ Stones/ Who/ Kinks on this basis: if the fabs are there they'll probably win, and if I take them out, the Stones will probably win, and if I take them out, it'll be the Who or the Kinks (probably the Kinks actually) - so in order to have a poll where it's not a foregone conclusion, i thought it would be interesting to poll the 'second string' (though in my head anyway, the Pretties outclass everyone except the Kinks, but that's just me).

For me, Odessey and Oracle, SF Sorrow, Piper, Ogden's Nut Gone Flake, and a few of Geir's suggestions* seem the same 'type' of thing: Psychish, vaguely conceptual, but also more pop than not.

* Love the first BeeGees - if people are happy they're British enough, I'd stick them in. Don't own a copy of the Hollies, but like what I know. The Kaleidescope and the Nirvana are a bit generic, and not well enough known. I wish I owned the Billy Nichols but I don't, and I suspect not many do. Hate the Bloody Moos, but if people can agree on one, I'd stick it in. What about Procol Harum? Shine on Brightly or A Salty Dog?

For me, Odessey and Oracle, SF Sorrow, Piper, Ogden's Nut Gone Flake, and a few of Geir's suggestions* seem the same 'type' of thing: Psychish, vaguely conceptual, but also more pop than not.

"Piper" is a double edged sword. The beginning and end (the Syd ones) are definitely very much in there. But in the middle of the album, there are some pretty "out there" jams (the Roger ones) that have musically more in common with Frank Zappa (or even John Cage or Stockhausen) than with "Pepper"/"Odessey"

In the case of Procol Harum, I think "Salty Dog" is generally established as their best, but it's a considerably more down-to-earth effort than "Shine On Brightly", which is their most psyched-out album.

Oh, and, "Butterfly" is considerably different from everything else by The Hollies. It contains tracks like these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEj0MBhC_7g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No3avBXCEP0

In the case of Moody Blues, I'd say "In Search Of The Lost Chord" is the most psych one. It contains a closing track with sitar and all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwcizavYNTc

If you go a bit outside the most obviously "out there" psych pop, The Move's fine self-titled debut album might fit in. Perhaps also baroque pop efforts such as Left Banke's "Walk Away Renee/Pretty Ballerina" and "Barry Ryan Sings Paul Ryan" by Barry Ryan.

Around by Grapefruit would fit into this mini-genre, although it's not, y'know, a masterpiece.

same goes for Manfred Mann - Mighty Garvey!

Xpost. I thought a lot of people got Billy Nichols when it got reissued. Maybe at this point it's become less well-known again? I liked it a lot, but don't feel any great need to play it often these days. Forever Changes (like Who Sell Out) seems fresher these days than a lot of others mentioned, though it's not UK...

IDK if this fits in this genre:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2551842601_570414e3f5.jpg?v=0

The Four Seasons' "The Genuine Imitation Life Gazette." TBH I just want more people to listen to this album. WIsh I could find a youtube of "Something's On Her Mind."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVU-Ui13iPM

same goes for Manfred Mann - Mighty Garvey!

"Mighty Garvey" seems to me most like a joke, although with a few ace songs included. A bit like The Turtles "Battle Of The Bands", which contains their best ever couple of singles, while the rest of the album is just a joke.

Abbbottt: I guess many American albums might fit in if American albums were to be included.

You'll get sick of O & O if you listen to it long enough.

the concept of Sgt Pepper seems to fall apart after 'with a little help from my friends' and after that it loses any sort of meaningful connection in ideas or sound palette and it just becomes an ordinary Beatles album

Crazy talk.

it just becomes an ordinary Beatles album

Like all the others.....

*runs*

You could make a case that a bunch of Pepper songs could have been on Revolver and that is also just an ordinary Beatles album.

As for straying from the concept, I'm imagining what it would sound like with faux crowd noise in between all the songs and little announcements of other Billy Shear-like made-up characters and maybe some extra references thrown in all the lyrics to Sgt. Pepper and stuff. The result probably would've been a far more silly and divisive album.

The concept was basically a career statement about them quitting touring far more than about Sgt. Pepper and some psych mythology. I guess the further we get from the historical context the easier it is to misread and just say "what a lousy concept album".

"You could make a case that a bunch of Pepper songs could have been on Revolver and that is also just an ordinary Beatles album."

Isn't Revolver just an ordinary Beatles album?

Revolver is among the most ordinary of Beatles albums.

Sgt. Pepper's is like being fired out of a cannon compared to Revolver.

is this you trolling just for fun again?

I don't mean that Revolver is a bad album, just that isn't the only thing that distinguishes Sgt Peppers from Revolver/Rubber Soul/White Album is the fact that the former has this cache as being "the total artistic statement" of the Beatles while the latter are just "great" Beatles albums.

xp: I do think that Revolver is one of the more patchy Beatles albums.

dang...well, I totally disagree there

Many people do.

Isn't Revolver just an ordinary Beatles album?

And Revolver is usually rated much higher than Pepper, so I don't think ordinary-Beatles-albumness has any value as a measure of how good a record is.

My tracklisting for the Beatles Revolver EP

"Here, There and Everywhere" McCartney 2:26
"Yellow Submarine" Starr 2:40
"She Said She Said" Lennon 2:37
"Good Day Sunshine" McCartney 2:10
"For No One" McCartney 2:01
"Got to Get You into My Life" McCartney 2:31
"Tomorrow Never Knows" Lennon 2:57

I think Pepper stands up to repeated listens better that O&O due to the better production. A million listens and I still hear new, strange bits on that album.

If we're just talking about songwriting and tunes then, A Day in the Life > O&O > rest of Pepper

The top 25 'psychedelic pop' releases according to rym charts:

1
The Beatles
Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (1967)
2
The Beatles
Magical Mystery Tour (1967)
3
Love
Forever Changes (1967)
4
The Zombies
Odessey and Oracle (1968)
5
The Flaming Lips
The Soft Bulletin (1999)
6
Milton Nascimento & Lô Borges
Clube da Esquina (1972)
7
XTC
Skylarking (1986)
8
The Byrds
Younger Than Yesterday (1967)
9
The Flaming Lips
Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots (2002)
10
Gal Costa
Gal Costa (1969)
11
The Left Banke
Walk Away Renée / Pretty Ballerina (1967)
12
The Pretty Things
Parachute (1970)
13
Gal Costa
Gal (1969)
14
Gilberto Gil
Gilberto Gil (1969)
15
The Millennium
Begin (1968)
16
Panda Bear
Person Pitch (2007)
17
Os Mutantes
Mutantes (1969)
18
Brigitte Fontaine & Art Ensemble of Chicago
Comme à la radio (1970)
19
Brian Wilson
Smile (2004)
20
Robyn Hitchcock
I Often Dream of Trains (1984)
21
Lucio Battisti
Anima latina (1974)
22
The Olivia Tremor Control
Music From the Unrealized Film Script, Dusk at Cubist Castle (1996)
23
Billy Nicholls
Would You Believe (1968)
24
Kaleidoscope
Tangerine Dream (1967)
25
Small Faces
There Are But Four Small Faces (1967)

Lots of stuff from 1967. 1969 seems it was the year when it broke into Brazil, great albums in there.

O & O by a wide margin, love almost every track on there.

And Revolver is usually rated much higher than Pepper

At least it has been since the late 70s. Pre-punk, "Sgt. Pepper" was considered to be their artistic pinnacle.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

with the non-Beatles/Stones/Who/Kinks albums, I'd maybe go with the Tomorrow album, Traffic's Mr. Fantasy, maybe the first Soft Machine album and one of the Incredible String Band albums, I've heard 5000 Spirits and Hangman's Daughter...
anybody here like the Deviants? Hapshash and the Coloured Coat? Ron Geesin? All of these are pretty coming up pretty soon on my things-to-check-out list.

I have never gotten fully behind Love tbh.

I feel Incredible String Band is something else. More folk than psych. More Donovan than Beatles. Only way more out there than Donovan ever was.

Love is American but still, really, Crut? I kind of feel like they're one of the most listenable of the 60s bands...

Donovan's "A Gift From a Flower" is some pretty rad stuff. Hippie jazz folk with a late-60s pop production.

Possible non- Beatles/ Stones/ Who/ Kinks poll of 60s British albums - one per artist: SF Sorrow, O&O, Piper, Ogden's, anymore? Fairports, ISB nominations?
Let's go international so albums like Turtle Soup and Safe as Milk could fight for standing.

Love= more folk than psych. American psychedelia is really something else than English, and they don't have much in common apart from the chronology and the links to the hippie cult.

English psychedelia: Twee, influence from Indian music, sitars, mellotrons, lyrics about pink elephants and cellophane skies. Lots of studio gimmickery
American psychedelia: Influence from folk and blues, lots of jazz influenced improvisation. Not so much studio gimmickery although Grateful Dead used some of it for a while

I know there are exceptions, like Lemon Pipers were very "English" in their style whereas Cream were probably more "American", but it is generally two very different types of music that don't really have anything much in common.

true enough.

lyrics about pink elephants and cellophane skies

what about orange skies, carnivals, and cotton candy?

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Geir fairly OTM (and relatively non-biased) in that last post. Just sayin'

well I imagine you probably would know Myonga

Yeah, this is a bit of a no-brainer: Odessey and Oracle is clearly the superior album, although I'd put it ahead of the album the Beatles put out in 1968, too.

jfc give it a rest

Hang on, I don't recall talking about Odessey and Oracle recently!

'Hung Up On a Dream' is quite possibly one of my favourite songs of the '60s... I love the chord changes, the melody, the lyrics, the production, everything, but really the whole album rules and should have made them huge.

eventually every thread on ilx will just be turrican talking about how lame the white album is

I'm talking about how good Odessey and Oracle is! There's some gorgeous vocal harmonies on this record.

Time Of The Season owns

LOL @ argument upthread about it being an r&b song