the lowdown on downloads

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music you "share" vs. music you buy:

- what do you download that you would never buy?

- how often do you really end up actually buying something new based on having taken a tantalizing taste via the web?

- have you been opened up to musical forms that you might've missed, or are you just hearing more of the music you liked before having this access?

- is downloading theft? why not?

- big predictions? impact on music industry, musicians, listening habits, critics, etc??

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 12:07 (twenty-three years ago)

also can anyone recommend any really good essays or books on this topic?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 12:09 (twenty-three years ago)

or threads for that matter, this must've been discussed before.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 12:14 (twenty-three years ago)


i don't know about "really good" but salon.com seems to crash the same car w/ this topic every (bi)week

mark p (Mark P), Friday, 23 August 2002 12:57 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, seems like everyone's burned out on this topic...

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 13:03 (twenty-three years ago)

- what do you download that you would never buy?
Cheesy pop. Buying the single would be too expensive. Buying the album would be even more expensive.
- how often do you really end up actually buying something new based on having taken a tantalizing taste via the web?
I've probably become fans of roughly 20 new groups, Although I don't buy anything 'shrinkwrapped new', I do buy albums by my new faves from the 'used' record store.
- have you been opened up to musical forms that you might've missed, or are you just hearing more of the music you liked before having this access?
In general, I have a greater appreciation for genres I used to pooh-pooh (disco, prog) and ones I don't get much exposure to otherwise (techno, death metal) while still finding increasingly more obscure players in genres I already love (celtic, goth, punk, blues).
- is downloading theft? why not?
I don't think so. As a audiophile, I think that a 192-bitrate mp3 is still just a "demo version" even if I succeed in downloading the entire song. You have to buy the actual album to hear what the song really sounds like. Y'see, p2p mp3 swapping IS NOT a replacement for record stores. Its a replacement for RADIO. You wait forever to hear a song you might like, and if you're lucky you discover some new (music|band|artist) that you might want to (support|buy|idolize).
- big predictions? impact on music industry, musicians, listening habits, critics, etc??
Selling singles will die off, while remixes and 'bootlegs' will grow in importance. The RIAA will become even more irrelevant. Albums that are just 'hits plus filler' will die off. Listeners will have broader tastes. Critics will not only use even more obscure pop culture references, but more hacker slang (might even complain about an album with bad sound by saying "24-bitrate" instead of "scratchy mono")

Lord Custos Alpha (Lord Custos Alpha), Friday, 23 August 2002 13:08 (twenty-three years ago)

what do you download that you would never buy?

Loads of 12"s. I really can't buy hundreds of vinyls a month, but thanks to mp3 filesharing, I can listen before choosing what is really worth buying. And livesets, lots of livesets. Some out of print material, demos, rehearsals. Some Top 40 material that's just nice to have around for private parties etc.

I hardly ever download whole albums. Somehow it doesn't feel right, I really feel the need for 'the real thing' in that respect, the whole experience with full artwork/lyrics/etc.

Siegbran Hetteson (eofor), Friday, 23 August 2002 13:10 (twenty-three years ago)

This is some weird synchronicity, I just started a poll on this topic at the unofficial Pitchfork today, asking why people buy albums when they can download them. The two most popular responses are "to support the artist" and "packaging."

I'm just now starting to get a handle on how huge the downloading thing is, partly by interacting w/ other Pitchfork writers & readers. This board has a lot of people roughly my age or older (30s+), and I don't think we can completely wrap our heads around what is happening. Some of these 18 and 19 year olds have downloaded 1000 albums!

I have a hard time comprehending that, for so many reasons, but the upshot is that things are changing fast. In terms of the impact down the road, I honestly can't think of a scenario where music won't just be free in the future, unless its through an internet usage tax, or maybe inserting advertisements into songs like TV shows. It's too huge, too easy, the demand is too great.

Some dinosaurs (myself included) will talk about packaging, the album as fetish object, wanting to support artists, etc., but I have a feeling most people don't give a shit about any of that. It's another commodity, and if you can get it free, why pay?

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 13:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I somehow don't "trust" downloads. I may not be able to tell there is something lacking in the sound, but I always suspect that there is. It sounds as though it's going to becoming that much harder to make a living as a professional musician in the future.

DeRayMi, Friday, 23 August 2002 13:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Some of these 18 and 19 year olds have downloaded 1000 albums!

And some older ones as well, trust me...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 14:29 (twenty-three years ago)

As for the question in general -- I need/love/must have more music. Definitely hearing more styles and things than before (hundred year old Chinese folk recordings? bring it the hell on!). The vast majority of my money spent on buying music has rarely gone to the artist anyway (used CDs being the most obvious example).

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 14:33 (twenty-three years ago)

is that an excuse though ned?

Josh (Josh), Friday, 23 August 2002 14:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Naturally it's an excuse. It hasn't stopped me from buying pretty much the same amount of music as before, though.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 14:52 (twenty-three years ago)

do you make a point of only buying music you think the artist will get more money from?

Josh (Josh), Friday, 23 August 2002 14:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, I buy my used CDs from stores that I want to see in business, for instance -- no money goes back to the bands there at all anyway. And those CDs that I do buy new these days do indeed usually come directly from the artist (Walkabouts releases, for instance, or Marc Almond's successful series of website-only efforts) or from companies that actually give more than the typical pittance back to the artists (just about anything on the LTM label, which directly licenses the masters from the bands, or the Young God label). This isn't the case with every new CD I buy, of course, but it is nice to know that for the most part when I am buying a new CD that the money is going to go in some way shape or form back the person(s) who created it rather than the stock options of a middle management person at ConHugeCo, a division of Universal/Vivendi.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:02 (twenty-three years ago)

This is kind of a twist on Tom's thread about music writing, but why should people get paid for making music, anyway?

I buy the "if someone is going to make $, it might as well be the artist" argument, that makes sense. But with file sharing, NO ONE is getting paid. Isn't this OK?

I've gotten a lot out of Josh Blog over the last two years, and it hasn't cost me a nickel. Josh never thought of charging me for the privilege, either. You could say, "Well bands have to invest in equipment and that costs $" but Josh had to buy a computer for a grand or so to write his blog on.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I buy the "if someone is going to make $, it might as well be the artist" argument, that makes sense. But with file sharing, NO ONE is getting paid. Isn't this OK?


maybe I'm just dense, but aren't these 2 statements contadictary? If you buy the argument that artists shouldmake $, how is "NO ONE getting paid" OK?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:20 (twenty-three years ago)

As someone who spends time transcribing parts from records I can confirm that downloaded mp3s ain't even close to cd quality. Generally I can do the job from a downloaded mp3 but sometimes have to get the original cd to transcribe muddy passages. mp3 clarity varies but the cd is invariably much clearer.

ArfArf, Friday, 23 August 2002 15:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Fritz -- I just mean that if someone gets paid, if some money happens to change hands, then the artist deserves a generous cut. But if no money changes hands, that's something different.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:23 (twenty-three years ago)

but Mark, say you run a Cracker Jack factory, ok? you think people should pay money for your boxes of Cracker Jacks. You pay the popcorn farmer a flat fee on delivery of the raw materials, plus a penny from every box of cracker jacks sold.

I think the popcorn farmer should be getting the most generous cut, so I hand out free plain paper bags of crackerjacks that I've taken from your warehouse. Now neither you nor the popcorn farmer are making the money you're used to making.

Is this fair?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:30 (twenty-three years ago)

The problem with your example, Fritz, is that in order to reflect most major-label contracts, your putative farmer wouldn't be getting a flat fee but a massive loan with strings attached, and then would only receive a miniscule per diem while the factory owner could easily claim that it itself isn't making money on the one hand and on the other hand could use problems in marketing and selling its product to blame the farmer and completely cut it loose without warning. I take your point, but it's not an accurate comparison.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

ok, you're right, Ned, but add all those stiplatuions to the factory-owner's deal with the popcorn farmer - it still just makes giving away the cracker jacks for free even worse for the farmer...

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:37 (twenty-three years ago)

I see your point, Fritz. The one thing that potentially makes this different is that the farmer has to put blood, sweat and tears into every kernal of popcorn popped, while digital music files can be duplicated and disseminated via the web with only the smallest amount of electricity added to the equation.

If the guy undercutting the popcorn people w/ the free bags had created a machine that could turn one kernal of corn into a hundred trillion kernals without any energy input, then I expect all the other people in the chain would go out of business.

I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here, but my head is swimming w/ ideas about where music production is going to go in light of file sharing. It's a sick fact of capitalisim that "what's right" usually has little to do with what actually happens. If free music in the future is the reality, we should probably try and find to make a world a better place within that. This is all coming from a guy who treasure his vinyl copy of the first GYBE LP and has downloaded 100 MP3s in his life.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:38 (twenty-three years ago)

back there, stiplatuions = stipulations, btw
yeah I know this analogy has already snapped like a cheap rubber band... anybody got a better one?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe in the future music will be like Linux. Licensed out for cash in certain situations, flying around the world for free otherwise.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:46 (twenty-three years ago)

ok, say all music is free in some form. Do albums - packaged selections of music that you buy in a physical form - disappear?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:51 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think so...a lot of people downloading now, from what I've seen, are downloading entire albums. So clustering things together into a larger statement will probably have some appeal no matter what.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:52 (twenty-three years ago)

The physical form thing, though, yeah, I think that will disapear. People now like the packaging (like me), but only b/c they're used to it. You never hear people mention DVD or video packaging, they just care about what's inside.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

and if the technology to disseminate music for free is here, what about film and literature? what happens when you can download & burn a perfect dvd of any film you want for free? print out a copy of any book or mag you want? how does the american economy deal with this?

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:54 (twenty-three years ago)

how does the american economy deal with this?

Hmm...the economy or the creative impulse? This would appear to affect the culture industry, as opposed to those folks watching robots put cars together, say.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Film and literature & file sharing have to do w/ the limitations of our bodies. Our eyes just don't like reading on computer screens for hours on end -- it hurts. So paper will stick around until that changes. And films look better projected onto an 80-foot screen, so they'll be OK too. But exact copies that provide the exact same experience (like w/ digital music) is a different story.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

("limitations" should really be "preferences")

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

at the very least, we'll see efficient downloadable files to burn as dvd's soon, don't you think? you wouldn't have to watch it on your computer, just as you can burn a cd-r or music files and use it anyway you like.

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:01 (twenty-three years ago)

ned, yeah, the creative impulse is an issue too, but movies are a huge export for the USA

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:03 (twenty-three years ago)

isn't the "packaging" reason mostly a specialists concern? (i hesitated to say "indie", because it's not entirely accurate, but: the audiophile buying a 190 grm. gatefold copy of a seminal 60s lp, the kid buying the 190 copy limited edition lathe cut 7", and the rabid fan buying the box set for the pictures and extras have more in common with each other than, say, my sister or mother.) it seems to be the loosest (i.e. most tenuous) reason cited by pundits for the continued existance of the physical music object.

and in a way, literature in mp3 form already exists, at least for the stuff which is now in the public domain (i.e. most of the "classics.") much of my college lit reading was done with the aid of a good school laser printer and the internet. books and music do differ when it comes to packaging though; it's a truism, but a powerful one, that no one gives a shit when a new version of the wizard of oz, or gone with the wind, or alice in wonderland comes out with a new cover (book or film come to think of it, which is why i used these particular examples.) but everyone and their mother would be shitting themselves if sgt. peppers suddenly appeared in a new sleeve. i think - this too - is going to slowly change over time as new generations of kids become less devoted to the physical object. (i couldn't even tell you what, in the last few years, has had a "classic" record cover, even if i cared about such things.)

jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:04 (twenty-three years ago)

movies are a huge export for the USA

Hey, I live in the basin where the company town is found -- they're running scared on the subject and have been for some years. Where they're lucky is that it takes a lot more to download a clean VCD ready copy of something like, oh, I don't know, let's say a certain film's Oscar promo DVD release from some months ago (for argument's sake ;-)). But the ability to do this is going to keep increasing.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:08 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't download whole albums. I usually just go for songs by bands that I'm interested in hearing or like already. Having a dial-up connection discourages me from going MP3 mad.

jel -- (jel), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Something else I think hasn't mentioned yet, at least directly, is the fact that if you have a set discretionary income for indulging in music and there's a LOT of music out there you want to hear, at certain point you hit a limit (unless you want to start maxing out a credit card, which I don't recommend). As I said, I've been buying around the same amount of music as always -- and practically speaking I can't really buy anymore than that, unless I save up for special occasions, as I'm doing for Terrastock, say. Thus another key appeal of mp3s...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned is OTM re the culture industry: who's going to be making all this free music once the means to make any kind of living from it has been removed? wait don't tell me - touring right? say 359 days a year or so? or is this where the obligatory commod champs step in to sing the praises of ad campaigns ("it's not selling out when it's your ONLY CHOICE do you SEE?! try being indie when you're FAMISHED haha YAY!")

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Ned is OTM re the culture industry: who's going to be making all this free music once the means to make any kind of living from it has been removed? wait don't tell me - touring right? say 359 days a year or so? or is this where the obligatory commod champs step in to sing the praises of ad campaigns ("it's not selling out when it's your ONLY CHOICE do you SEE?! try being indie when you're FAMISHED haha YAY!")

Being a "star" will always pay, esp. as you get into clothing, merchandising, etc. (all the smart rappers are moving in this direction now), and most people making indie music don't make a living off of it now, except by playing shows.

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Or by aiming for the self-released cottage industry type thing, like I noted with the new CDs I do pick up. Classic example is Burning Shed, which makes its CDRs to order. If they build up a clientele, they will get support -- I've bought literally everything the label has released.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

mark - not a much of a living, no, but every little helps

The Actual Mr. Jones (actual), Friday, 23 August 2002 16:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Custos was OTM way back up there in this thread -- to my ears, an MP3 is just a demo. Some music, of course, I don't need more than a demo version of. About half the music I've bought over the last three years is something I originally heard via download, and I'll be another three years just catching up to cool stuff I originally picked off audiogalaxy.

briania, Friday, 23 August 2002 16:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Custos was OTM way back up there in this thread -- to my ears, an MP3 is just a demo.

Surely this will change soon enough?

Mark (MarkR), Friday, 23 August 2002 17:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Put an 160-192 bitrate mp3 through a reasonable stereo system (yay my sixties era speakers) and frankly all is well.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 23 August 2002 17:30 (twenty-three years ago)

I bought a copy of the penguin classics edition of gravity's rainbow despite having old penguin classics edition with different cover = new editions matter. I almost bought a third copy of moby dick yesterday because it had nice paper! and then once you include lost material, notes, forewords, edits, translations...

Josh (Josh), Friday, 23 August 2002 18:18 (twenty-three years ago)

In addition to being sources for music, records are social props and physical extensions of the self. Browsing another person's record collection is classic, whereas browsing a bunch of computer files on somebody's hard drive . . . well, maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

felicity (felicity), Friday, 23 August 2002 19:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Are record labels flooding KaZaa with dud tracks? Over the past week, half of the album tracks I've downloaded were actually singles by the same artist (often in truncated form) disguised with a different file name. Has anyone heard about such a strategy, or am I just being paranoid?

Keith Harris (kharris1128), Sunday, 25 August 2002 16:11 (twenty-three years ago)

It sounds like a pretty effective strategy; therefore, you're probably just being paranoid.

felicity (felicity), Sunday, 25 August 2002 16:46 (twenty-three years ago)

both the RIAA and the MPAA are seeding kazaa, imesh and grokster (fasttrack) with dud tracks and movies ... for movies the best bet is checking with Fasttrack Movies to see if the file is kosher, for music i just use soulseek

naz, Sunday, 25 August 2002 17:14 (twenty-three years ago)

forgot to add links seeding and Prosecutions against individuals

naz, Sunday, 25 August 2002 17:51 (twenty-three years ago)

How brilliantly evil of them. Surprised they didn't come up with that sooner. Thanks for the info.

Keith Harris (kharris1128), Sunday, 25 August 2002 18:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Browsing another person's record collection is classic, whereas browsing a bunch of computer files on somebody's hard drive . . .

No way! It's just as interesting to see what people have downloaded on a whim. People have strange stuff on their computers.

One of the main reasons I buy albums is to document my taste. MP3's are short-term - they won't be on your computer forever. If your computer screws off and dies tomorrow, would you want to lose your whole collection? For example, I've mainly been consuming rap as singles for the past three years (almost the entirety of my life as a record collector). On the up-side, I've heard a lot of good hip hop and not paid a cent, but on the down, another three years from now I'll be able to revisit a lot less of what I'd like to.

As for the "cracker jack" argument, I personally plan to be a musician all my life and have no qualms about not making money.

A.V. Alexandre (Keiko), Sunday, 25 August 2002 18:18 (twenty-three years ago)

How brilliantly evil of them.

whats proposed next

naz, Sunday, 25 August 2002 18:32 (twenty-three years ago)

If your computer screws off and dies tomorrow, would you want to lose your whole collection?

Do you have a CD burner? All you need to do is burn your collection 700 MBs at a time onto CDs as a backup and you're pretty safe.

lyra (lyra), Sunday, 25 August 2002 20:04 (twenty-three years ago)


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