Not the canon: another jazz thread

cos i really liked this thread in which ilxor asked for jazz recs, and it seemed that a lot of people had a lot to contribute. But - how much can you throw at someone and expect them to listen? (One of the things I liked about the thread was that it really happened - he really bought discs, listened to them etc)

So maybe a thread which talks about lesser known/rated jazz recordings, which could include lesser known works of well known musicians as well under appreciated works by various sidemen?

also because i was listening to Blues-ette - Curtis Fuller Quintet which is a really lovely 1956 recording - great concise writing and playing w/Benny Golson, Tommy Flanagan/Jimmy Garrison.

Good idea.

For obvious and justifiable reasons, the canon is going to be nearly entirely African-American in its composition: but it would be worth having a place where European, non-US American, African and anywhere else jazz got in.

Two discoveries:
The Music of Fred Stone on CBC - lovely stuff recorded for Canadian radio in the early 70s by tr/ flugelhorn/ flute player. It's hard to come by, regrettably, but I think it's out there on the blogs.

Malombo - Philip Tabane

SA guitar player - this is just fantastic, and to my ears, entirely sui generis - like Beefheart or Coleman, once you hear him, you'll know him forever.

CAm you tell me more about the Philip Tabane? Never heard of...

Can can can...see i CAn type

Heading out for the day, more on Tabane and off shoots later but here's a taste:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXtX0uLQk4M

Whether it's 'jazz' might be another question, but it's hard to say it's anything else either.......

cheers will hearhere

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9fNUraB6rEQ/TH1ApcHwH1I/AAAAAAAABWM/-_5CU1RD1h0/s1600/jdj85-1.JPG

I've always had a soft spot for this record. AFAIK the music was composed as a soundtrack to some nature documentary, and it doesn't sound like De Johnette spent too much time composing it... The album only has five long tunes, and last one is a reprise of the first one. I'm not sure if it even counts as jazz, De Johnette doesn't play real drums on it, the tracks just have these 80s drum machine rhythms and synths playing drones and simple melodies, and Bowie improvises on top of them with the trumpet on 3 of the tracks. The other two have some light keyboard jamming by De Johnette. But what I like about Zebra is that it sounds like nothing else I've heard, a bit cheesy and sonically soft, but quite lovely too. It's kinda like if Vangelis decided to a jazz album over one weekend.

don't see this guy mentioned too much (except maybe for his soft jazz covers of 60s pop hits) but this record is great
http://www.soft-tempo.com/records/images/jackets/sub/GABOR%20SZABO%20The%20Sorcerer%20AL.jpg

I hate to be a dick about this, but if you search around you'll find that there are dozens if not hundreds of threads about jazz on this board, including jazz from particular continents/countries, contemporary jazz, lots of specific artists including obscure ones. There's a Gabor Szabo thread with a few dozen posts in it, e.g.

"Non-canon" jazz seems overly broad -- whose cannon? I mean go ahead with this thread anyway, but I recommend using search too because this board is a lot deeper on jazz than you might think.

There is even a whole thread about the guy mentioned two posts up: Gabor Szabo: Who Cares About His MIddle Eastern Modalities Aside From Me And Hurting?

haha I just said that

Oh yeah. That part of your post fell in my blindspot.

i am sorry

No problem. He's also mentioned north of fifty times in other places in ILM, maybe I shouldn't have even started that thread.

Nah it's cool. I mean talk about Szabo in this thread too by all means. More discussion is good. I more just meant to encourage the OP to dig deeper into ILM.

I like Lenox Avenue Breakdown by Arthur Blythe as much or more than tons of super famous jazz classics, lots of other good stuff by Blythe out there as well...

yeah, i'm glad people seemed be to so excited about the other thread, but hundreds of posts where people name jazz albums is not very interesting imo. you can find that pretty easily on other threads and on a million other sites. didn't want to ruin the party, though.

I guess I never actually posted in that thread even though my name is in the title, ha. I do really like his playing, and it is sort of "non-canon" in its approach due to its elements of 60s pop, spanish music, drone, etc. A thread on 60s west-coast lite/pop jazz might be neat, although that may have been done, I don't know. Coming up as a jazz head there was certainly a mild disdain for lite west coast stuff because you were supposed to be into pure, hardcore blowing and only listen to the players that had the best "ideas" (whatever that means) and execution. Some of this was also probably racially tinged, although it didn't mean there was anything wrong with players being white, they just couldn't play too "white." Anything "with strings" was out, anything where a non tin-pan-alley song was covered was out, or not really out, just not as acceptable. But even in jazz school there would always be guys who would be like "No, check out those CTI recordings, they're killin'" or repping for the cool sound or whatever.

xpost -- the problem with that other thread is it seems like people are just naming every jazz album they've ever liked. I mean some of those picks are just like "Really? That's what you'd recommend to someone just starting out with jazz?"

hundreds of posts where people name jazz albums is not very interesting imo.

Me I would have told him just to start with those first four albums that Miles & co. recorded in one day.

...but what *is* interesting is reading ilxor's thoughts on the variously recommended records to him.

bring it to I Love Vinyl, we'll talk about any old bullshit. and if it's jazz before 1992 it will be on LP

ps Szabo rulez, some the 60s stuff is acid jazz in the literal sense. just got Lena & Gabor last week. more swank than psych but I like his style in any setting

xpost -- the problem with that other thread is it seems like people are just naming every jazz album they've ever liked. I mean some of those picks are just like "Really? That's what you'd recommend to someone just starting out with jazz?"

this is kinda what i was going for! tell me what you like. i want to be overwhelmed w/ recommendations and have lots to explore.

"Really? That's what you'd recommend to someone just starting out with jazz?"

starting out in what way? I mean, it's not like jazz is Ancient Greek or something completely foreign.

no, but ilxor isn't familiar with the most basic concepts/conventions involved (ie what chord changes are, how a walking bassline functions, what a head is, etc.). i'm not saying that he can't just jump in and enjoy it (that's exactly what he should be doing), but imo having some context makes listening to jazz a lot more fun, since it evolved in a pretty linear way. understanding the musical innovations + reactions + reactions to reactions helps make the experience more interesting.

The Ancient Greeks is a good example- the bards didn't try to overload their audience with detail, that's why they always started their stories in the middle.

and it's not like he needs to take a course on jazz before listening to a note, or that he can't listen to whatever he wants. i think everyone finds there gateway drug and then fills in the rest of the picture from there. but on the other hand, i don't know if having people name a hundred random jazz records is especially helpful.

ilxor isn't familiar with the most basic concepts/conventions involved (ie what chord changes are

i know what a chord change is! i just don't know how chord changes are typically employed in jazz, or the different types that are common to specific eras.

Well then...

'm not saying that he can't just jump in and enjoy it (that's exactly what he should be doing), but imo having some context makes listening to jazz a lot more fun, since it evolved in a pretty linear way. understanding the musical innovations + reactions + reactions to reactions helps make the experience more interesting.

― bows don't kill people, arrows do (Jordan), Wednesday, February 2, 2011 12:43 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't really buy this at all, like a lot of dudes i think who tend towards more punk/etc type listening, i actually sort of worked in reverse...the very first jazz CD i ever bought was "go see the world" by david s. ware, a free jazz rec, then worked backwards through miles and coltrane...i'm only now really listening to like duke ellington and stuff....i know a lot of ppl that listen to a lot of jazz now that are just like that.

like a lot of dudes i think who tend towards more punk/etc type listening, i actually sort of worked in reverse

yeah, me too.

anyway, like jordan said, i'm content to dive in & listen right away (starting w/ even some free jazz, fusion, spiritual eastern stuff, along with the "classics" -- it's all interesting to me!), then pick up on a lot of the jazz theory and background stuff as i go along. but back to this thread, i dont want to change the convo

like I went from Borbetomagus back to Brotzman

what's the weirdest, moodiest Bill Evans album?

i just dove into brotzmann the other day & it sounds fantastic to my ears, but i'm coming from liking sonic youth & lots of other psych rock improv stuff

i know that, which is basically what i was accounting for in my next post (re: gateway drugs). maybe what's bothering me about the other thread is the idea that he should try everything at once (like records from all eras) and see what he likes, before really knowing what's going on.

xxxxp

i just dove into brotzmann the other day & it sounds fantastic to my ears, but i'm coming from liking sonic youth & lots of other psych rock improv stuff

― Damn this thread seems so....different without ilxor (ilxor), Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:53 AM (1 minute ago)

that's part of what i was alluding to with the jazz not being completely foreign statement. Like a lot of elements of jazz can be found in music of other genres. Besides the fact that exposure to popular culture means that you've probably heard a bit of jazz - in movies and cartoons and stuff.

like I went from Borbetomagus back to Brotzman

all the way back to brotzmann, huh

maybe what's bothering me about the other thread is the idea that he should try everything at once (like records from all eras) and see what he likes, before really knowing what's going on.

most of it's actually been pretty targeted to my tastes, given that i disclosed up-front a bunch of tangential stuff in other genres that could serve as a jumping point. that's how i like to listen-- find something that grabs me emotionally first, learn background abt it once its teeth are sunk into me

look Jordan, it's pretty obvious that we have different tastes. You're the guy that said bands described as "loud" and "chaotic" make you avoid going to gigs.

No moldy figs on this thread, Jordan.

that's how i like to listen-- find something that grabs me emotionally first, learn background abt it once its teeth are sunk into me

right, and that's how i was saying it works for pretty much all of us with jazz. it just seemed to me that the other thread was getting pretty unwieldy with recommendations from all over the map, without much discussion or context. but it doesn't seem like you're writing anything off right away.

i actually haven't heard an album i don't like at least somewhat!

ilxor, are you actually skot?

oh wait, he doesn't like nina simone

You're the guy that said bands described as "loud" and "chaotic" make you avoid going to gigs.

did i? i have no problem with loud, as long as it's not bullshit-y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGRjgoRl67s

(acoustically loud anyway, i do hate when soundguys push things up way higher than is necessary for the room)

oh there's a new Mostly Other People Do the Killing album out -- contemporary NYC dudes, recommended.

xp - it was on some thread about words and phrases that turn you off to a band or something. I only remembered it because it was kinda the opposite of what I go for.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xweiQukBM_k

if it's jazz before 1992 it will be on LP

― Mangrove Earthshoe (herb albert), Wednesday, February 2, 2011 5:13 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

notable heart-breaking exception: sonny sharrock's ASK THE AGES.

sorry - context - Mostly Other People Do the Killing features Peter Evans on trumpet. He's totally sick. And Kevin Shea on drums, who plays a little like Zach Hill in some ways.

Anyway, I was just thinking of the time I invited Hurting to my friend's gig and his regular guitar player didn't show up so they were playing all the usual stuff and after a few numbers Hurting and I were able, using jazz jam session 101 logic, to guess the styles and maybe even the titles of the next few tunes. Hopefully ilxor would be able to do the same after his studies.

I resisted recommending anything on that other thread cuz yeah it quickly just turned into a list of a bunch of unrelated stuff - opted to chime in about other people's recs but that's about it

Ha, if this had been a few years ago, that would have started a flame war of you and amateurist against xhuxk.

This guy wrote a great and on-target book about John Coltrane, with lots of musical examples and very clear explanations thereof: http://www.furious.com/perfect/coltrane.html. Even in the short interview somebody might learn something.

Ha, if this had been a few years ago, that would have started a flame war of you and amateurist against xhuxk.

who? what?

Actually I think that thread went missing during the 17 days.

what's the weirdest, moodiest Bill Evans album?

― surfboard dudes get wiped out, totally, Wednesday, February 2, 2011 1:52 PM Bookmark

Interesting question. I think a lot of them could be described as "moody" in a way but I don't know off hand if any are "weird." Perhaps Conversations with Myself, where he overdubs piano parts.

ilxor, have you gotten Money Jungle yet?

I've never listened to From Left to Right, which has a lot of rhodes on it apparently. Maybe that one is weird.

nope, haven't found it used yet ;_;

it's a great one, you should look out for it.

oh i am!

For me the essential Bill Evans tune besides the most obvious is Re: Person I Knew, especially as it appears on Moonbeams.

money jungle seconded

that's one of those records where I can clearly remember my first listen -- where it was, how hard it hit me, etc.

Money Jungle C/D?