did India invent house music

I am starting to think so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqnPYwoiF4

I have that whole album, the answer is kinda "yes"

yeah I lucked into a copy over the weekend

There was that thing in the 70s called Disco and soon after Italo Disco that pretty much is house so I'm going to go with not really.

and before disco there was nothing

just people banging rocks together iirc

Geeta Dayal wrote a couple of interesting posts on the album: http://www.theoriginalsoundtrack.com/2010/04/thoughts-on-10-ragas-to-a-disco-beat/.

I don't know that much about Indian classical music, but I think the album is almost more intriguing as a condensed way of appreciating the differences between ragas than as proto-house, though of course the acid-y stuff is really cool.

Interview with the guy from last weekend:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/may/10/charanjit-singh-acid-house-ten-ragas

Sorry, week, not weekend.

Having explained that much of the music that Ten Ragas is compared to comes from Chicago, we settle down to listen to the record that arguably started it all – Acid Trax by Phuture. Singh listens intently but seems unmoved by the pulsing, stripped down music – and the signature squelch of the 303. "It's quite simple" he concludes after around three minutes, gently chuckling at the idea that there are similarities between Acid Trax and Ten Ragas. "It's very simple this music," he says. "What I played are ragas – there's a lot of variation."

Singh's wife Suparna seems more interested and asks for more detail about the nightclub context that Acid Trax would be most suited to. "Is this very popular?" she asks somewhat dubiously as the record continues to play. As we talk over the music I become increasingly aware of the oddness of the situation – listening to loud acid house at 12.30 on a Sunday afternoon in a suburban house in Acton with a couple of genial 60-year-olds visiting from Mumbai is indeed a strange scenario.

just lute-core and some chanting iirc.

This is an interesting record though, I sware it came out way back last year sometime I dunno why I've seen more about it again recently.

think this is pretty much my favorite album sleeve ever as of right now

http://www.theoriginalsoundtrack.com/art/charanjitsingh.jpg

I dunno why I've seen more about it again recently.

I think it came out last summer, but the Guardian piece that Ned linked to showed up in a few of my rss feeds.

"It's quite simple" he concludes after around three minutes, gently chuckling at the idea that there are similarities between Acid Trax and Ten Ragas. "It's very simple this music," he says. "What I played are ragas – there's a lot of variation."

Charanjit Singh OTM

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was about India, the singer (La India if you prefer) and her days singing Latin freestyle

amazing track up top, need to grip this lp

this album rules

I wouldn't say there's a massive variance in quality between individual tracks, but fwiw that first track is one of the less exciting imo. try this one too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNz_um3ipOA

we talked about it a bit here

Cosey Fanni Tutti: Classic or Dud?

^Love that ending. To me it sounds more like ragas played on a 303/808 than acid house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9JGyF-NZ5s&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT64B6vs9Mc

did India invent house music

as an Indian, I sadly have to confirm that no it didn't but it did make some amazing disco tunes. Search: Nazia Hassan, Bapphi Lahiri

this is so fucking great, thanks

I don't think India invented house music although Charanjit Singh may have accidentally stumbled upon it. The album's great but melodically there are significant differences. Reckon it's pretty much impossible to play music on that equipment and NOT have it come out sounding like acid house.

impossible to not make the connection i guess but wonder why Singh didn't work the effects at all tho (based on the tracks i've heard from this) which is a major characteristic of acid house and, y'know, the knobs are right there.

^^ I think this is it. To me in the Guardian interview Singh appeared to be uninterested with the limitations of the machines and couldn't imagine a social context in which people would be interested in lots of music that sounded (to him, at least) the same. If I were him I'd dig out some old tapes and get them to labels for remixing. Ame made good use of one of his tracks on their Fact mix I think.

To my ears it seems he wanted to create a sympathetic sound. He probably didn't imagine people jacking to the rhythms of his electronic ragas.

American ILXors will of course be unfamiliar with the character in "Goodness Gracious Me" who claims Indians invented everything

this is still one of my fave proto house things. from 1970. if i was an acid house dj i would totally be spinning it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLy45GD9v0

oh but i meant to say also that i too want that ten ragas album. so great and so very cool.

I remember this being reissued, re-edited and framed as proto-acid house a few years ago but Ten Ragas goes much further.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdTs-iLBKME

On a proto-house tip, I don't remember seeing this thread before - looks good.

this is the proto-house youtube thread

its just the same tech that he used. thats all. the actual content is nothing like acid/house cos hes playing ragas. he wasnt interested in fucking with the knobs and gear cos to him he was just using it as drum machines as a backing for the melodies etc, not as the whole entire song. i mean, if acid ended up in chicago with a lot of indian influences, then i could say yes, india invented house. but he was just early with using the tech. which does make him forward thinking. pretty novel to be using that gear so early and giving it such prominence. but its just sort of like an indian take on instrumental electronic disco. i do really like what ive heard of the album though.

re the re-edit of the paul macca track. was it this :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvh4dAOK5ZA

but its just sort of like an indian take on instrumental electronic disco....that sounds to many people like it prefigures acid house by several years

weird resistance on this thread to giving this guy his props

thing is the relationship to acid house is barely there because he doesn't use the 303 in the same way people did (better) later - it just sounds quite thin and cheap here and just of novelty value. the composition and structure is the more interesting aspect but presumably no more than the more traditional sounding ragas? i do like the last track on the lp tho.

xpost. No, it's the Radioslave one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEK4egzdSI4

he doesn't use the 303 in the same way people did (better) later - it just sounds quite thin and cheap here and just of novelty value

But this is only the sort of conclusion you can only come to 30 years later and when critiquing it as acid house, so it seems a bit off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiwLKMXo5U0&feature=related

my favorite moog house track. it's pre-disco so no big beat but almost there, if Lucifer had only squelched the rhythm section...

looking at genealogies is always so depressing and serves no purpose

just lean back and put on some house tunes or maybe this album or maybe anything you like and enjoy it

~~~~~~~~~

I mean, life is lovely, love is life, ayo house dudes from india circa 1982, say what up to u mans and dem

Bring down the babylon facebook... Write your friends a lettah....

xp not AS acid house, but in relation to it. the 303 sound is not really what makes this sound good when it does, but sure the context is interesting and noteworthy mainly because you don't hear much (about) 303 use before dj pierre (i figure this is mainly because big producers at that time from rodgers to jones to eno to hannett weren't seeing these cute little white boxes as serious studio equipment and it took the price drop for bedroom producers to gain access).

i def give the guy his props - he was doing interesting, out there, succesful experiments with house gear before others were, which makes him a clear innovator and forerunner, but i dunno if its house per se. but this is all splitting heirs really isnt it. if we can say that italo and moroder and them were basically making early house then we can say the same for this guy. the albums great in any case.

looking at genealogies is always so depressing and serves no purpose

― THAT'S LIGHTWEIGHT DICKERY (dayo), Tuesday, May 17, 2011 9:32 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

In this case, entirely.

I mean, if your going to base the quality of the record on its being proto-acid house, your probably just going down a dead end. It's very much possible to read it outside of straightjacket narratives about the development of specific movements that, ultimately, have more to do with the context of a time, place, and situation then what whether something sounds like it conforms to what emerges from that.

I mean, props giving be directing at the fact "he was doing interesting, out there, succesful experiments with house gear before others were," and not in his ability to take the take the crown from pierre et als heads.

yeah i mean, i like the music on this album, but you couldnt play this in a house set without a few 'huhs'. and im saying this as an indian disco fan who thinks nazia hassan made some of the greatest disco songs of anywhere ever.

plenty of 70's electro disco stuff that sounds like house music. this guy was sleeping. why'd he wait until the 80's to come up with this stuff.

no 303s in the 70s

yeah i was kinda kidding.

this stuff is still awesome. i love the sound so much. how many records did he make like this?

One, I think.

iirc, the liner notes indicate that it didn't sell anything, so he moved on

damn, so no unreleased jams i guess.

reminded that Orange Juice's 'Rip It Up' features a 303 so a useful thread for dot-joining in that respect

track id - acid from 1981 or earlier, sounds like the knife

damn, so no unreleased jams i guess.

ah shit, am listening to this for the 1st time tonight, and as it winds down, i'm wanting MOAR. what was the last 'classic album' you got and were knocked out by? THIS. holy hell. "raga malkauns" ffs!

don't hear this as house per se, though plenty of the signifiers are there. more as spiritual kin to moroder, cerrone, gottsching, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT64B6vs9Mc

yes, i saw that! great stuff, so much better than the guardian interview that came after.

charanjit singh performing in london next month!

http://www.residentadvisor.net/event.aspx?415728

How cool!!!!

1982, pfah.

Delia Derbyshire (of Dr. Who theme fame) in 1963:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szE5D-dPs_Y

that is not a house beat

it is true that James Brown invented jungle tho

it sounds like half of the songs that ricardo villalobos puts out

this wld probably be a really weird gig

It's just as much a house beat than Charanjit Singh's IMO.

Anyway, 1981:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wzH7_bMnFuo

But it's more about acid, than house isn't it? However without the tweaking of filters it ain't acid to me.

Also the combination of A + B + C, gear-wise

Sorry for lowering the tone, but that Delia Derbyshire track reminds me I asked someone if they'd seen the video of her in the BBC Radiophonic Workshop mixing tape recordings the other week, and without a beat they replied, "it's part of my wank bank".

ha ha ha...

what is the song the little indian dude is dancing to?

Holiday Rap - Dj Sven and MC Miker G.

shank u

he was pretty amazing last night - apparently getting some help from the mixing desk, and I presume some advice at some point about how to make things dancefloor friendly (or maybe not?) but much better than I would have guessed. really pretty special.

If we're talking about proto-house, Imagination's "Burning Up" (from 1981) is a better example of "the first house tune" than the others mentioned here. Unlike them, it wasn't just an anomaly that we now retroactively connect to house music, as it was actually played at Chicago clubs, and probably was a direct influence to the first house producers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwZ_dIT1yzI

yep, it was seriously great on friday. just totally out there. didn't know whether to dance or zone out to it, and most ppl there seemed similarly confused tbh, and so did he. loved it.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/06/acid-house-music-innovator-charanjit-singh-dies-aged-74

RIP

big salute to this guy

I only know the same album as everyone else but I remember the first time I heard it, a mixture of incredulity and wonder, and the sudden sense of perhaps vaster horizons of possibility than you had previously imagined

why the hell did i never hear about this before???

There was a great piece in RA/FACT/the Guardian a few years back when they played him Acid Trax and Voodoo Ray and Digderidoo etc and he was just sort of politely befuddled, like he was grateful for the attention but just sort of humouring people who couldn't hear the difference.

I often feel that modern listeners, especially electronic music fans, can have a tendency to privilege the sonics over all other melodic and harmonic concerns and you could tell he thought the same in the case of his music. He pretty much said "it's very simple isn't it, this music? I played ragas, there's a lot of variation", but I guess a lot of listeners/critics lacks the musical vocabulary to be able to differentiate them.

Anyway I'm listening again and this is still amazing, a complete one-off. RIP.

xp that's presumably the Guardian piece Ned posted upthread, although I daresay he had much the same conversation multiple times in the last few years

xp Yeah that's interesting, how to some ears it's roughly the same thing but to him there's little-to-no connection - which makes sense really. They're not meant for quite the same purpose. Like comparing two disparate styles of guitar music because they both have guitars, drums etc...

I find the "he invented acid house!" claims irritating, if only because it's myopic to conceive "invention" in terms of doing something at a distinct chronological moment, rather than looking at the cultures, communities, spaces, places, and social/material/political histories in which they take meaning as such come together over time – even if someone stumbled on a similar sound earlier ("house isn't a sound so much as a situation" etc.). Or in other words, acid house doesn't pre-exist the culture of The Box/Trax/its spread to the uk/etc., but is produced in the history that comes out of that process... which isn't to downgrade C Singh's contribution, but to recognize it on its own terms rather than blithely contextualize and legitimate it according to naratives that are already established (as if it's important only because we already know and love acid house).

tl;dr version: he "invented" his own thing, which is just as, perhaps more, radical and interesting than his "inventing" house.

Ok that's my thing. RIP!

otm

this album is great, but I don't imagine it had much of an impact on us/uk house/acid

then again, there's some kind of term for when the same invention is made in different places independently of one another?

i was at what i believe was his first u.s. show last year, in a small tent at a festival in madison. the vibe felt really special and he seemed to be enjoying himself, so glad i went to that.

Ten Ragas to a Disco Beat was framed much like Black Devil Disco Club: prescient but irrelevant to the evolution of Euro electronic music, which owed more to Detroit, Italo, and Belgian EDM.

It does suggest the convergent evolution of Acid House was inevitable after Tadao Kikumoto brought us the TB-303.

Belgian EDM

it's belgian new beat, and your impersonation of Star Trek's Computer, even when you aren't providing misinformation on the cancer thread, is irritating.

anyway EDB is otm

Meant EBM (coined by Kraftwerk, popularized by F242), though semantically, everything since Moroder might fit into a catch-all interpretation of "EDM".

EDM, EBM, EDB is otm