Define "song"

Here is the Merriam-Webster definition of a song:

1 : the act or art of singing
2 : poetical composition
3a : a short musical composition of words and music
3b : a collection of such compositions
4 : a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale)
5a : a melody for a lyric poem or ballad
5b : a poem easily set to music

What is your definition? What fundamental characteristics of a piece of music make it a song in your eyes?

We did this before. Sort of

3a is usually what I think of.

Do Words Belong in Music?

of course as soon as i try to narrow down a definition i think of counter-examples.

i think a "voice" has to be capable of participating, as a minimum requirement.

ignoring informal uses of "song" as a synonym for "track" or whatever.

A song has to have singing in it, otherwise it's a track or a tune.

That said I love all the songs by Autechre.

i'm not sure if i wanna go as far as "singing" but feel like there needs to be some kind of lead melody.

i. If you play a cover of a song with an instrument playing the vocal line, is it still a song?

ii. Words are obviously unnecessary as such, you could sing nonsensical phonemes for example

i think a "voice" has to be capable of participating

does this mean that you'd classify an instrumental as a song if you could at least imagine someone singing over it? that's how my thinking goes, anyways.

iii. More than words is all you have to do to make it real

xpost TIMING¬!

i. If you play a cover of a song with an instrument playing the vocal line, is it still a song?

- no. it's an instrumental of a song, therefore a tune in my eyes. You "sing" a song, you "play" a tune.

ii. Words are obviously unnecessary as such, you could sing nonsensical phonemes for example

- I'd say if someone is singing, whatever the langugae or method it's a song. Therefore Cocteau Twins tracks are songs.

this thread was prompted by all of the rap listed here:

Songs Where Someone Says "Oh My God"

I had a knee-jerk "but those aren't songs" reaction, but looking at definition 3a, which is my go-to definition of the word "song"... they actually are. This made me wonder how I was actually defining the word since it obviously was more than just "a short musical composition of words and music"; the words must also be integrated into a melody before it falls into my personal song bucket.

I also tend to think of instrumental versions of songs are still songs, since they were originally written for voice.

If someone played me Quincy Jones Orchestra's version of "On The Street Where You Live" and said 'Oh I love this song', I'd assume they were familiar and were talking about the sung lyrical version.

- I'd say if someone is singing, whatever the langugae or method it's a song.

I also tend to think of instrumental versions of songs are still songs, since they were originally written for voice.

"Written for voice"? More likely just have some vocals slapped on top of them.

Ha.

What about Dream Syndicate drones?

So Magma songs are safely referred to such, then?

If screeching like a chimpanzee with its balls caught in vice counts as singing, yes

The Parts of a Song

lol @ my rogue "of"

If someone played me Quincy Jones Orchestra's version of "On The Street Where You Live" and said 'Oh I love this song', I'd assume they were familiar and were talking about the sung lyrical version.

well... yes I would assume they were familiar with the sung version, but it's totally up in the air whether they are talking about that version or the instrumental version currently playing IMO

"Written for voice"? More likely just have some vocals slapped on top of them.

yeah I'm pretty sure eg "Amazing Grace" just had some vocals slapped on top of an existing instrumental piece

yeah, i think a song is a song irrespective of how it's performed.

on one hand, rap music often uses verse/choruses, samples of singing, guest vocalists, and obviously rapping itself is a lot more than a "neutral" speaking use of voice. otoh saying "rap song" feels a little weird to me.

we can perhaps ignore "birdsong" as a special use of the word song, but i think part of what you're getting at Dan is that a song has to be "written" in some way - would you think of totally improvised scat-singing over a random tune as a song?

I suppose technically you'd refer to a rap composition with no melodic vocal as "a rap" or "a track", but I wouldn't find calling it "a song" too strange.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v713/Maz22/FinalBard.jpg

voted for 'a song is an attack that only bards may use. these stirring melodies often provide powerful support effects for other characters in your party'.

http://varms.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/ff4spoony.thumbnail.png

lol

Calling something a song is just a way of packaging a sequence of sounds, much like calling something a poem is just a way of packaging a sequence of words. It doesn't matter what the sounds are, you can call pretty much anything a song.

we can perhaps ignore "birdsong" as a special use of the word song, but i think part of what you're getting at Dan is that a song has to be "written" in some way - would you think of totally improvised scat-singing over a random tune as a song?

Well, first off the tune being improvised over in most traditional scat-singing isn't usually random!

Secondly, improvisation is IMO best thought of as on-the-spot composition, so yes I would consider that a song.

Also I'm not really getting at a specific definition of "song" as much as I'm asking "how do YOU use the word?" I'm less interested in a consensus definition than I am in seeing how people think (or don't think!) about the word "song" when they use it.

yeah i used the word "random" to avoid traditional scat but "on the spot composition" is a neat idea i think

something something wittgenstein something

Is Tricky Disco a song? Smash Hits famously printed the lyrics when it came out.

When Warren Ellis does his rambling introductions at Dirty Three gigs he always says "this next song..." even though they're all instrumental. It's pretty clear he regards what they do as songs.

What about stuff like "Supper's Ready" and "A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers"? These would fit definition 3b. Geir, bless 'im, would call them "suites" but I don't think that term is appropriate.

musical definitions of "suite":

2b (1) : a 17th and 18th century instrumental musical form consisting of a series of dances in the same or related keys
(2) : a modern instrumental composition in several movements of different character
(3) : a long orchestral concert arrangement in suite form of material drawn from a longer work (as a ballet)

According to the dictionary, suites are by definition instrumental; I guess "song" is supposed to cover suites that incorporate vocal lines.

What about vocalese? When a singer writes words to a previously existing melody that had been performed by instruments other than the human voice. Does the "tune" then transmogrify into a "song"? I'm think of Jon Hendricks or King Pleasure, for example.

That goes back to compositional intent and how important it is to you when you are describing music, IMO. Even by strict definition, whether you would consider those "songs" or not depends entirely on whether the original intended compositional target is important to you when describing the piece.

xpost yes

basically, are you using "song" to describe what you are hearing, or are you using "song" to describe a specific type of "written"/"composed" music (where the piece could be written/composed at the time of performance, ie improvised)

Calling something a song is just a way of packaging a sequence of sounds, much like calling something a poem is just a way of packaging a sequence of words. It doesn't matter what the sounds are, you can call pretty much anything a song.

something something wittgenstein something

I didn't know until a few weeks ago that "song" meant anything other than "any piece of music." Or anything that's being presented as music, eg some musique concrète soundscape I would have thought of as "a difficult type of song." This is still how my mind employs the word "song." Nothing about singing OR compositional elements involved. I never learned barely a lick about music in my life so that explains that.

"Written for voice"? More likely just have some vocals slapped on top of them.

yeah I'm pretty sure eg "Amazing Grace" just had some vocals slapped on top of an existing instrumental piece

that simple, on the spot melody is still written for voice

Like I said on the other thread, I think, I prefer the alleged everyday misuse of the word Abbott is talking about to the alternative jazz club bandstand elegant variation of "this next number," "this next composition," "this next piece of music"

The melody might be but is the "song"?

The melody is the song, going by both music theory and copyright law.

The law is an ass

What are your favourite songs by Jeff Mills?

When musicians talk about the "voicing" of chords on piano or guitar or for a horn section, is that sloppy speaking in your opinion, should they be talking about the "stringing" instead?

why would you talk about stringing a horn section

also "voicing" is a well-defined music theory term, you seem to be asking a weird question

C'mon man, you know what I mean. You're just being a pedant about music theory and singing because as everybody knows, you're classically trained and sung with the greats.

Horace Silver - Song Tune for My Father
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWeXOm49kE0

No I agree with DJP, and I'm not classically anything - talking about "voicing" with instruments is something a bit different.

The point I was trying to make is that traditionally, sure, a song meant something with words sung by the human voice, but at this point in time it seems to be a pedantic distinction and in fact the word "voice" doesn't necessary refer to the human voice, the distinction is blurred the other way.

Unless one's speaking metaphorically, my guitar doesn't "sing".

I'm being pedantic with people who are more interested in being belligerent than having a conversation. If you want to talk about how you use the word "song" and its function as a descriptor of music, go for it. If you want to be snide about how I use it, I'm going to music theory you to oblivion, comfortable in the knowledge that most people who have spent some portion of their time learning about music recognize and understand the way I use musical terms.

Also, and I hate to go here, this line of thinking seems to privilege a melody song with words song by a human voice over some other kind of melody played some other kind of way, on a guitar, a piano, a synth, a sitar, a tuned drum. Haven't you people ever heard of talking- or singing- drums?

Dan, you asked us how we use the word and then you start using "the law" and "your training" to back you up. So yeah, you are really interested in what we have to say, and we are really the belligerent ones.

I did that to ONE PERSON who quoted me to dismiss what I was saying. Reread the thread.

I mean if you asked us what a "tritone" was, and we told you our opinion about what that was, there isn't really room for an opinion, that is a well-defined technical term that everybody would have to agree on. The word "song" has an everyday use, as thomp pointed out.

"Dismiss" is a bit of an emotive word

He wasn't DISMISSING what you were saying, he was pointing out a counter-example.

Then I was pointing out why I disagree with his counter-example.

FFS why should I even bother trying to post here

Dan, please don't leave. If you do it will be the same old song, but with a different meaning since you've been gone.

Your melody will haunt our reverie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wYoLQc-x5g

lol I'm not going anywhere, esp. not on the heels of a hissyfit

(sorry)

can cooking be a song

as an artist, I really enjoy exploring what song means

Lol I just knew Dan started this thread...

http://www.alwaysontherun.net/coltrane/cookin.jpg

Looks like wikipedia also agrees with Dan and dog latin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song. Guess I'll have to resign myself to "this next exploration of 7/4 time," "this next etude in the Spanish Phrygian scale," etc.

ilx spellchecker doesn't recognize word "Phrygian." No wonder we are having these problems.

hahaha