TS: Peter Hammill vs Kevin Ayers

Voted Kev.

I kind of think of these two as the manic and the depressive of post-prog English singer-songwritership. Ayers sometimes comes across as maybe too whimsical and often it feels like there's too much larking about on his records; Hammill on the other hand can be too morose, too portentous, too intense. That's a simplification though - there's a sad nostalgia to Ayers' work and behind all the Hammill I've heard there's always this sardonic humour. Both absurdists maybe, one dadaistic and one existentialist.

I like both, but everyone's so po-faced on this board that Pete is bound to win, so it's Kev all the way for me.

I don't detect too much "sad nostalgia" in Kevin Ayers' work tbh... give me an example?

Maybe it's just an effect of me listening to it now, but the whole Edward Lear/Lewis Carroll/Kenneth Grahame feel makes me think he's harking back to a lost era.

I don't know, find his nostalgia (which he didn't do that often) is more Paul McCartney than Ray Davies

Like I said, I feel like I only have a shallow grasp of what these guys are about. I'm here to learn!

I like Hammill/VDGG quite a bit, but Ayers by a mile. His first four solo albums should be revered all across the realm. Such a solid gold streak.

Don't know Ayers' work at all, but still have to vote Hammill, my all time fave artist. I have to say though, I don't detect much humour in PH, sardonic or otherwise. He is portentous and intense, and that's why I love him so much.

Hammill because i am so po-faced

Have never heard any of Ayers' stuff, where would be a good place to start?

Hammill is great but his work is so ridiculously lofty that it's almost tough to get through an entire album. Silent Corner is a good example of this. I think it's a great album but it's so emotionally harrowing - even on the song about his newborn daughter he sings everything as though he's going to collapse and die after the song is over. Can't wait to get into the other 50+ albums (fffff).

For Ayers, start at the start: Joy of a Toy. Proceed chrono through the next 3. (Shooting At The Moon, Whatevershesingswebring, Bananamour).

the song about his newborn daughter

This is actually about Guy Evans (VdGG drummer)'s newborn daughter. As for emotionally harrowing, that's what makes him so great. Of the 50+ albums, Over is the one I turn to most often and it really is as harrowing (for which read soul-baring and uncomfortably honest) as singer-songwriter stuff gets.

xp

whoops, I always assumed that was about Hammill's daughter. seems a bit different now.

it is kind of weird to hear him sing about real-life things, especially considering all the fantasy/sci-fi themes in VdGG's work. his voice is so theatrical that it's hard to take seriously.

yeah but there are about 35 solo albums and only 8 or so VdGG albums with sci-fi themes. Taking his work as a whole there is a lot more real life subject matter than there is fantasy. the great themes in his work are pretty grounded in reality.

no experience w PH tbh, but ayers is one of my real heroes

how about Ayers vs. Wyatt ?
I admit I haven't heard much of Ayers work outside of Soft Machine (he was on the first album right?) but I'm not sure how the two compare.

wyatt, being another one of my major heroes, beats ayers out, but it's not a trivial question. the first two KA albums are right up there in terms of high-qual with RW's oeuvre.

I don't detect too much "sad nostalgia" in Kevin Ayers' work tbh... give me an example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t13bF_-semE

also like all of joy of a toy!

I've tried both artists - the Ayers anthology had it's moments, but Hammill's "The Future Now" seemed like it had more potential. I'm not sold on either quite yet but I can see having an epiphany down the road about one or both.

Gerald, my god, I cannot imagine a big Robyn Hitchcock fan not sparking with the first few Ayers, esp Joy Of A Toy!

I know! I'll see if Spotify has them available and revisit.

They do. Or, at least, they did last time I looked.

I know the Ayers catalogue inside out and back to front, for he is MY GRATE HERO, but where to start with Hammill please?

"Fool's Mate" is actually quite like Kevin Ayers in places!

where to start with Hammill please?

Well there's a question. There are so many records it's daunting. The debut Fools Mate is atypical being a collection of short poppish songs. The next few are more psych-into-prog, mirroring the arc of his group VdGG. But he really stopped being prog in 1975 with Nadir's Big Chance which at least in part is kind of proto-punk and great fun. Then comes my favourite of them all, Over which is a very bleak break-up album. In the late '70s and early '80s he really got going with a clutch of awesome post-punk/new wave records – The Future Now, pH7, A Black Box, Sitting Targets, Enter K, Patience. You can't really go wrong with any of these...

^^^ This pretty much covers it.

Nadir's Big Chance which at least in part is kind of proto-punk and great fun.

Been listening to this a lot lately, it's fun hearing Hammill and VdGG just tear it down and do some straightforward rock. Still some trademark Hammillisms, but nothing wrong with that.

"Fool's Mate" was old songs that didn't fit into what VDGG were doing anymore and I think "Nadir" has a few of those too

There's a cover of one of the Fool's Mate songs on there, actually. I love Fool's Mate, too.

Cover, new version, whatever.

... that's by way of explaining why the songs are more straightforward and rockin'

Ah!

In the late '70s and early '80s he really got going with a clutch of awesome post-punk/new wave records – The Future Now, pH7, A Black Box, Sitting Targets, Enter K, Patience

Yup. I love the first several Ayers records but this string of Hammill releases have had a much greater influence on me.

The VdGG album H to He Who Am the Only One is a pretty good starting place if you're into stuff like Yes or King Crimson already.

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Robbed. A travesty of justice.

Well, that didn't take long. After a friend played me Kevin's "The Unfairground" I was really impressed with that album. Today I've been digging the "Songs For Insane Times" box. It took a while but his baritone and the odd pop/prog vibe has clicked for me, woohoo!