TS: "The Kiss" by The Cure vs. "The Queen is Dead" by The Smiths

Another similarity- both track names and both band names start with The. Eerie!

Also, they're almost the same length- 6:17 vs. 6:24.

This one's easy for me - it's 'The Queen Is Dead' by miles. Surprisingly though, I'm a much bigger fan of The Cure than I ever will be of The Smiths. 'The Queen Is Dead' is pretty much the only album by The Smiths that I can listen to from being to end without feeling boredom creeping in or wanting to skip a track, yet 'Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me' to me is The Cure's weakest album of the '80s (yes, I do rate 'The Top' higher) and I've always felt it would've made a much stronger single record, a la 'The Head On The Door'.

Sorry, it's a bit unclear I guess, but I'm just polling the opening tracks, not the albums.

This one's easy for me - it's 'The Queen Is Dead' by miles.

by miles. i do love the cure, tho, and the kiss (that whole album, really).

Sorry, it's a bit unclear I guess, but I'm just polling the opening tracks, not the albums.

― epistantophus, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:02 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mm-hm. I understood - and while I was here thought I'd talk about the albums that they're from and how I feel about them.

I feel like "The Kiss" is like holding your head under water for a little bit to make sure you really want to go through with the brutality that's going to happen. I prefer it to the showboating winkiness of the 18th pale descendant of some old queen or anoth'. THE KISS is a blood initiation ceremony and THE QUEEN IS DEAD is like an emcee trying to warm you up for a show that has not that much to do with his opening patter. So I voted "The Kiss." Maybe this means I am a masochist.

I feel like "The Kiss" is like holding your head under water for a little bit to make sure you really want to go through with the brutality that's going to happen

i get what you're saying, but iirc, kiss me kiss me kiss me is one of the cure's lightest albums. it's almost summer-y. a few songs are "brutal," but as many or more are bouncy-pop.

I feel you but OTOH I had my teeth drilled to that album; I listened to it on the bus every morning sophomore year (height of feeling shitty about high school) – part of me mad it this thing that fortified me through shitty experiences by matching my mood about them. Works pretty well if you skip songs like Catch, Why Can't I Be You, etc. It's also the only Cure album I owned for 2-3 years. I was projecting a lot of shit onto it, I'll admit. But you can't project all that same shit onto "flatulent pain in the ass" or "Keats and Yeats are on your side" or etc of The Queen Is Dead. Or at least I couldn't – all me, all subjective.

I guess compared to Disintegration it's pretty breezy but it's so formative for me that it's still in my mind the pinnacle of the long Cure intro.

apropos of nothing, kiss me kiss me kiss me is the first record i remember buying from a record-store (or maybe it was a cassette). bought from peaches, in NMB, circa 198-something.

i get the notion of being keyed into the cure's vibe on that record. OTOH, the queen is dead stirred all kinds of anger in the undergraduate me (once i finally discovered it).

Lol I always fast forwarded through the kiss and others like it specifically to get to WcIBY, catch, etc.

Queen by a country mile.

xxxxxpost:

I get what he's saying also, and I agree, the 'brutal' parts of "Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me" (while there admittedly are some) don't immediately happen - the next song on the record is 'Catch', for chrissakes, which to me is probably one of the lightest moments on the record! Not the greatest song sequencing, IMO, in the way that a lot of the album would feel 'light' after 'The Kiss', but 'Catch' feels extremely light.

I agree with what he says about 'The Queen Is Dead', though... there's very little else on the record that approaches the musical "heaviness" (for want of a better term) of the title track, but while it's followed up by the comparatively lighter 'Frankly Mr. Shankly', it doesn't feel as extreme a gear change as the one from 'The Kiss' into 'Catch'.

furious drums at TQID's beginning are largely responsible for generating that angry feeling. so much power in that drum riff.

When I bought Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me my dad told me about my older cousin who spent a lot of time listening to The Cure in high school on headphones, constantly, looking weird for a Mormon boy, and generally acting alienated, not talking at dinner, etc. So I knew I had made the perfect purchase. (I had actually bought it because they kept playing "Why Can't I Be You" at church dances! which is of course a total jam esp. for a church dance)

i feel as deeply about TQID (the album) as abbott does about KM/KM/KM, BTW, tho it's been forever since i've felt motivated to play it. there's a light (that never goes out) is on that disc, right? classic among classics.

sorry, abbbottt. can't keep up.

-- dannnieeel, esqqq.

It is indeed.

I will also admit right now that I have never really "got" TQID except for the singles and "I Know It's Over." The rest all seem like these very showy and silly novelty tunes. Which I appreciate, I love novelty tunes, but they don't really say something to me about my life like most Smiths songs tended to. I realize this is anomalous; I am a huge lover of The SMiths.

This poll asks about two things I felt VERY DEEPLY about in high school and also I am drunk so there's my loquacious side; thanks for everyone's patience.

furious drums at TQID's beginning are largely responsible for generating that angry feeling. so much power in that drum riff.

― Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, October 26, 2011 1:31 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mike Joyce's finest moment, I reckon! Not the worlds greatest drummer by a long stretch, but he was perfect on that track.

Abs - U are cute and I am too tired to type out a full response on this here iPad but I feel you.

Both of these songs are great.

"The Kiss" is slightly greater.

A lot of what makes "The Queen is Dead" is tied to the interplay of drum and guitar, but it's mostly Morrissey's arch invective warbling queasily over the two. "The Kiss" is a slow-burning ball of fury that smolders its way into supernova fury by the time Robert comes howling in like a spurned demon. That raw, naked fury speaks to me on a much deeper level than any of Morrissey's witticisms.

framing it like that sounds like the pearl-jam v. nirvana debate (with the cure v. the smiths, respectively).

the analogy doesn't hold, but it's an interesting way to view the question.

"The Queen is Dead," easily. "The Kiss' is cool, and a cool start to an awesome record, bit it's a bit bullying in its relentlessness - epitomizes the Christgau criticism, agree or not, "Samey samey samey is the strategy--repeat repeat repeat repeat the same four-bar theme for sixteen, twenty-four, forty-eight, sixty-four bars before Robert Smith starts to whine, wail, warble, work" - whereas "The Queen ..." is like a boxer victoriously celebrating after his opponent's been knocked out. Both songs are great wah-wah workouts, and both are effectively misleadingly aggressive compared to the tracks that immediately follow.

(I mean, I love "The Kiss," but it also works as self parody)

the bullying is precisely why "The Kiss" is better

Maybe. But I think it only works as an opener, to this particular album. I don't think I'd ever want to just put on "The Kiss."

Maybe. But I think it only works as an opener, to this particular album. I don't think I'd ever want to just put on "The Kiss."

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:05 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

I agree with this 100%. I think 'The Queen Is Dead' works as well in isolation as it does as an opening track, whereas 'The Kiss' makes for a good elongated intro, but I don't think it fares as well just on its own.

There's been mention of Mike Joyce's drumwork in TQID (amazing, powerful and memorable imo) but let's not forget Boris Williams' deft and well-crafted beat in The Kiss. The kick drum pulses like a heartbeat, but every snare hit sends a shock through me, building to where it starts to sound like staccato bursts of gunfire.

Also, I very much like DJP's analysis upthread. Slow burning ball of fury!

I don't think I'd ever want to just put on "The Kiss."

try the live version on the Trilogy DVD

I listen to "The Kiss" in isolation all the time.

I love the slow, inexorable build, with a new layer or variation introduced every 16 bars. I love the naked aggression in both the music and the lyrics. I love Robert's full-on howl in contexts like this, where the music supports it rather than letting it hang out there exposed by itself. It's been a highlight of the Cure concerts I've seen and more than deserved its place on the playlist.

"The Queen is Dead" is a great song but it's not "The Kiss".

Was Morrissey referring to anything in particular with "the church - all they want is your money"? Like, was e.g. the Church of England soliciting ridiculous donations at the time?

I will also admit right now that I have never really "got" TQID except for the singles and "I Know It's Over." The rest all seem like these very showy and silly novelty tunes. Which I appreciate, I love novelty tunes, but they don't really say something to me about my life like most Smiths songs tended to.

I think this is why it's a classic, actually: it tempers the Smiths' tendency towards relentless miserabilism.

My favorite thing about "the kiss" is that it is followed by "catch." I guess I also like the fact that Morrissey isn't singing on it..., so "the kiss"

I listen to "The Kiss" in isolation all the time.

Well, obviously you do.

I could listen to a disc of just Boris for an hour.

"The Kiss" isn't on the trilogy DVD, is it? I thought that's "Pornography," "Disintegration" and "Bloodflowers." Speaking of which, I think "One Hundred Years" is more or less the same idea as "The Kiss," but better. And "Plainsong" is the same idea flipped on its head. But better. Not least because it "HAS BEEN MIXED TO BE PLAYED LOUD SO TURN IT UP."

I remember..

We all piled into my car to go back to hers, one of the girls who sat in the front went to the glove compartment and found the Cure CD. "Ooh, I like the Cure, can we play it?"

So, we drove from Ealing to Shepherds bush with 5 mins of "I wish you was Deaddddddddddddddddd" dooming out full blast. That added to the party flavor!

Voted "The Queen is Dead"....

"The Kiss" isn't on the trilogy DVD, is it? I thought that's "Pornography," "Disintegration" and "Bloodflowers."

They play those three albums in full and then after that they do an encore, of which 'The Kiss' is one of the songs... I can't remember the other... 'If Only Tonight We Could Sleep', I think!

"The Queen Is Dead." I like both, but I prefer the faster one with the "oboe" line.

Speaking of which, I think "One Hundred Years" is more or less the same idea as "The Kiss," but better. And "Plainsong" is the same idea flipped on its head. But better.

Neither "One Hundred Years" nor "Plainsong" is related to "The Kiss" thematically or musically.

"One Hundred Years" is a series of long, paranoid verses repeated over the same musical phrase. "Plainsong" is four verses in a row + an outro with the main variation being where the melody is (none-guitar-voice-guitar). "One Hundred Years" deals much more with terror, uncertainty and dread rather than betrayal and rage. "Plainsong" is about love and wistfulness. Neither "One Hundred Years" nor "Plainsong" does the escalating tension through minor variations/embellishments on the main musical theme and neither has a continuous wailing guitar solo running through the entire song.

The sole similarity is the presence of a lone vocal verse in both "The Kiss" and "Plainsong"; however, the verse in "Plainsong" is gently rambling and expansive while the verse in "The Kiss" is a curt, staccato explosion of rage. Also, the vocal verse in "Plainsong" acts as a plateau for the swells in "Plainsong", allowing a rest point before the climax of the last verse. In "The Kiss", the vocal verse is climax/release point; nothing is taken out or dropped back to allow the vocal through, but instead everything continues to build in intensity while the lyrics finally put words to the anger brewing all through the long steamroller of a buildup.

Having said all that, there are definitely days where I would take "One Hundred Years" over "The Kiss"; today isn't one of them. ("Plainsong" is a very good song but really nothing on the first half of Disintegration can hang with the second side, which is probably the best stretch of music they ever recorded.)

Neither "One Hundred Years" nor "Plainsong" is related to "The Kiss" thematically or musically.

They're all epic dirges that dramatically start out their respective albums?

None of these songs is a dirge.

I'm not sure any of them is a song, either.

(That's a joke, btw. Sort of. But also not.)

b : a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction

lol, that sounds like both "One Hundred Years" and "The Kiss" to me!

To me, there are a few songs on KMKMKM ("Shiver and Shake" and "Torture" for two) that approach the intensity of "The Kiss". However, the horn sections in these songs kind of lessen the effect for me.

is that another smiths album/song? hadn't heard of it (and i used to be a rabid fan).

b-side to Girlfriend In A Coma - has never been on a compilation.

(though it did get used on non-UK Stop Me CD singles as an extra b-side)

Isnt it on the 1992 reissue of Shoplifters cd single to promote the best ofs? It's not great but there is something about the lyrics that reads pretty autobiographical for Moz.

internets says... 1995 US-only single of four b-sides to promote the third posthumous best-of in 2½ years. Uncharacteristically considerate of an acquisitive major label imo!

I listened to 'Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me' this morning while I was getting some shopping in, and 'Shiver And Shake' came on... I'd completely forgotten about it! Legend has it that the song was written about Lol Tolhurst... oh dear!

Legend has it that the song was sung at Lol Tolhurst... oh dear!

I just put on DJP's Kill Me, Kill Me, Kill Me playlist, and it's incredible how well 'The Kiss' segues into 'Torture'. I wish I had thought of this in high school. (Not that it kept me from having KMKMKM on my Walkman every day, but still...)

Legend has it that the song was sung at Lol Tolhurst... oh dear!

― Mark G, Friday, October 28, 2011 8:01 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

Yes, that too. It's remarkable that Smith kept him in the band for so long, in hindsight. I know that he was a friend and an original member, but from what I've read he was damaging himself and contributing very little (as well as being the butt of band jokes) for quite a while before his eventual exit after the 'Disintegration' sessions. Y'know, mad stories like Smith leaving him alone to work out how to use a Fairlight, and when he got back found that he'd done absolutely nothing but snort coke off it.

that is how a Fairlight works, in fairness

that is how a Fairlight works, in fairness

― he carried yellow flowers (DJP), Friday, October 28, 2011 2:45 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

Hahaha!

when I added the Kiss Me reissue to my library, i deleted everything off the proper album except these tracks:

Catch
How Beautiful You Are
Just Like Heaven
All I Want
One More Time
Like Cockatoos
The Perfect Girl
A Thousand Hours

Makes it a tolerable album, imo.

Though looking back on the tracklist, i'm pretty sure I should have kept If Only Tonight We Could Sleep. Seem to remember liking that one.

While I do like many of those songs ("A Thousand Hours" is the only UGH one), I can't imagine this album with "The Kiss", "Torture", "The Snakepit" or "Hot Hot Hot!!!".

(side 4 really is the weak link, tho)

my personal abbreviated KMKMKM

Catch/ Torture/ If Only Tonight We Could Sleep/ Why Can't I Be You?/ How Beautiful You Are.../ The Snakepit/ Just Like Heaven/ All I Want/ Hot Hot Hot!!!/ One More Time/ The Perfect Girl

I'm not convinced of 'Catch' being a good opening track, though?

1. The Kiss
2. Torture
3. If Only Tonight We Could Sleep
4. Why Can't I Be You?
5. How Beautiful You Are
6. Just Like Heaven
7. Hot Hot Hot!!!
8. One More Time
9. The Perfect Girl
10. Like Cockatoos
11. Shiver And Shake

I'm not convinced of 'Catch' being a good opening track, though?

It's an amuse-bouche

I've done this before, but today I would sequence my fantasy KMKMKM like this:

Side 1: Why Can't I Be You?/Catch/How Beautiful You Are/One More Time/Like Cockatoos/Hey You!!!

Side 2: Icing Sugar/Just Like Heaven/Hot Hot Hot!!!/The Perfect Girl/Shiver And Shake/If Only Tonight We Could Sleep

...though I am torn between this and making two albums by substituting b-sides from these sessions.

I would also edit "How Beautiful You Are," "One More Time" and "If Only Tonight We Could Sleep." In fact, I may do this. Not every song needs a 2 minute intro. (I mean, even "Shiver And Shake" at 3:29 doesn't start the first verse until 1:57.) I made a nice edit of "Push" once.

So,yeah, obviously I would pick TQID. Regarding the album, I am pretty tired of "Frankly Mr. Shankly" but I don't mind "Vicar In a Tutu."

But geez, the first Smiths album is where it's at, fools.

I can understand why the lengthy intros are a bit of an acquired taste for some, but for me they've always been a part of what The Cure do. I couldn't imagine some of the tracks on 'Disintegration' without the long intros, for example. I can't understand why anyone would want to edit down "Push", though! Why!? If there's any Cure song I wish had an extended version, it's that one!

Well, it's like when some countries had "Fascination Street" as a single, I mean it's 3 mins until the singing isn't it? And there's not a lot even then!

KMKMKM is great the way it is (I love this sorts of double albums, complete with all their bizarre experiments and odd filler that are part of their appeal), but if I had to edit it down:

Side 1: The Kiss, Catch, If Only Tonight We Could Sleep, Why Can't I Be You, How Beautiful You Are
Side 2: Just Like Heaven, All I Want, One More Time, Like Cockatoos, A Thousand Hours, Shiver and Shake

"The Kiss" is fantastic, but I picked TQID because it might be the best six minutes of the Smiths career.

I estimate that on the 'Disintegration' album, taken as a whole - Smith isn't even singing for about 46-47 minutes of it's near 72 minute run time!

yeah, this actually is a bit off-putting for me about the cure. i'm accustomed to singing in certain types of pop songs, and i sometimes don't have enough patience to let the singing start.

sing, dammit, sing

But geez, the first Smiths album is where it's at, fools.

Show us another road map.

yeah, this actually is a bit off-putting for me about the cure. i'm accustomed to singing in certain types of pop songs, and i sometimes don't have enough patience to let the singing start.

― Daniel, Esq., Saturday, October 29, 2011 9:16 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

If we're talking about 'Disintegration' specifically, I tend to treat that one as an "instrumental album with vocals", myself. A lot of the things that I find beautiful about 'Disintegration' are usually happening in the guitar work/keyboard work rather than the vocals!

I dig extended-intro Cure. It just gets to be a bit much when it comes to an album which I think is relatively weak. (As for "Push," I love it the way it was released, but I wanted to see what a "single" version would be like.)

Show us another road map.

I have no idea what this even means.

where the Smiths album is at

Gotta find your own way, yo.

"Fascination Street" is so great. Yes, it has a long intro, but you just have to let it build, man! The payoff is so worth it!

Also, can I just say, I can't stand "Why Can't I Be You?". Don't get the love for that song at all. But I do enjoy "Hot Hot Hot".

Oh, I dug out an old VHS comp, and was reading through the contents, and seeing the full video for HHH, and remembering when this (fifth?) single from the album was still an event, and that there were plenty events to be had each week.......

remembering when this (fifth?) single from the album was still an event

fourth

Close enough.

I love Robert Smith's quote on that 'Hot Hot Hot' video...

I told Tim Pope I wanted us to look like a lowdown funky soul band. He translated "lowdown" as "dwarf" and "soul
band" as "black-and-white". Polydor said it wouldn't get shown. It didn't.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I bet Metallica could do an OK version of "Venus in Furs." I can't find it, but that Carolina psychedelic black rock coalition funk metal band the Veldt did an OK version of it, so I assume Metallica's would be OK.

Whoops, wrong thread! Or is it ... !?!?

TS: Metallica covering "The Kiss" vs. Metallica covering "The Queen is Dead"

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

'The Queen Is Dead' won! All the praise for 'The Kiss' in this thread made me seriously think it was going to clinch it!

whenever it has been the Cure vs. the Smiths the Smiths always wins on ILM

Stupid ILM

the Cure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. the Smiths but I voted for The Queen Is Dead.

All those Cure remasters/deluxes...

Which one? That one has yyy but then again it has zzzz.

As opposed to one album where it all was 100% great and no fil.

rong u assholes

lol, holla @ ya boy

All those Cure remasters/deluxes...

Which one? That one has yyy but then again it has zzzz.

As opposed to one album where it all was 100% great and no fil.

are you talking about the bonus tracks on all of them from experience, or asking to be recommended a single remaster to get even though you don't think the Cure have any good albums?

I'm sure they have good albums.

I got "Kissme" back at the time, "Wish" also.

Oh, and "Mixed up", played that one a lot.

so are you asking for shopping advice or?