Pavement: lo-fi or hi-fi.

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I think Pavement's later work is criminally undervalued. The stuff Malkmus put together through Wowee Zowee and Terror Twilight is cooler than anything that, say, Radiohead ever managed to do. I mean, how many bands have managed anything as grand and precise as the instrumental breakdowns on Fight This Generation or Transport Is Arranged? Who else can make three guitars dance around each other with the grace, beauty, and whimsy featured in Carrot Rope? We call Pavement the great Slacker Band, and take it for granted that the talent and ambition featured on their later works was worthless. It's never struck me as anything but awesome. Pray, can I get a witness?

And as for their early stuff: S&E us wonderful, but Crooked Rain is just mediocre. It's just Weezer if Weezer weren't great. It leans on the hooks, instead of the complexity that enriches their other albums: but the hooks aren't that hot. And there are a lot of duds, besides.

― Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Thursday, 12 September 2002 02:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm going to disagree with nearly everything you say (ie. Crooked Rain is great, Terror Twilight is Pavement's All Shook Down) while agreeing with your central thesis. Pavement's later-work is underrated; I still think Brighten the Corners is the best album Amerindie produced in the nineties, and Wowee Zowee's been the conventional wisdom Pavement fan's favorite album for awhile. They were great enough post-"Cut Your Hair" that when my indier-than-thou friend's chuckled "that band's sucked ever since they got rid of Gary Young" after I expressed disappointment with Terror Twilight I could think "well, that's just fucking absurd."

― James Blount, Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I never realised the later 'Ment albums weren't as popular/feted as the early ones - easily I'd put Terror Twilight up there with S+E, no diggedy - in fact, some days I definitely prefer it.

The real question here is "Malkmus: Solo or no-go?"

― Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:11 (twenty-three years ago)

oh no do not introduce that issue it is a different thread

― Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Thursday, 12 September 2002 03:59 (twenty-three years ago)

point taken. don't get the weezer thing tho - i see no similarities at all. thoughts?

― Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, you alienated me and now I can't answer what I momentarily thought was an interesting question.

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:51 (twenty-three years ago)

i think its odd to compare pavement to radiohead

― ron (ron), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:52 (twenty-three years ago)

"i see no similarities at all" - really? at the time I remember Weezer be regarded as Pavement's Stone Temple Pilots.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:52 (twenty-three years ago)

"i think its odd to compare pavement to radiohead" - nigel godrich to thread!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:53 (twenty-three years ago)

ok, you got me. i don't think they sound even similar though

― ron (ron), Thursday, 12 September 2002 04:59 (twenty-three years ago)

it isn't so much a different thread, as BtC and TT were essentially solo albums. which is probably why they sound more packaged and polished, and less spontaneous and immediate. They're just these nice stoned epic arrangements with some nonsense lyrics thrown on top, nothing more than that.

I think Malk has always claimed he had nothing to say, lyrically, but that is only really true for the last 2 records. Nothing there lyrically, and the music, however pretty or rocking or whimsical or epic, sounds a little too pat to me.

― Aaron A., Thursday, 12 September 2002 05:04 (twenty-three years ago)

whoa xxxx post. i type slowly HAHAHAHA. (i was responding to "oh no do not introduce that issue it is a different thread ")

― Aaron A., Thursday, 12 September 2002 05:06 (twenty-three years ago)

If there's any Pavement album guilty of leaning on mediocre hooks over elaborate arrangements I'd say it's Brighten The Corners, not CRCR. And even THAT has Transport, Type Slowly and Fin (yum). Pavement are one of those bands that rarely fail to satisfy me, save for the fact that nothing really comes close the matching the replay value of S&E/Watery.

― gazuga, Thursday, 12 September 2002 05:15 (twenty-three years ago)

Still can't believe someone let Placebo sample "Texas Never Whispers" tho...

Hey, is this http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/02-09/03.shtml common knowledge? Well I'm excited! I can buy it all over again!

― Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 12 September 2002 05:50 (twenty-three years ago)

hmmm...that didn't work did it?

www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/02-09/03.shtml anyway.

― Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 12 September 2002 05:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I know; part of me's thinking 'damn, I guess Matador needs cash' but I'll probably buy it anyway, it's been forever since I listend to S+E, so this'll give me an excuse. As long as they don't pull an Elvis Costello and re-issue it again in five years with even more bonus tracks.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 September 2002 06:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's worth it for the Peel sessions alone.

― gazuga, Thursday, 12 September 2002 06:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Thanks - more "it's worth buying again" posts please! And, Slow Century is actually coming out (the same day). Miraculoso! Did they decide to scrap the greatest hits and/or live album?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 September 2002 06:15 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm another who's never understood the whole "Weezer as Pavement ripoff" thing. The most obvious thing they ripped off, the solo + vocal falsetto thing on Weezer's "El Scorcho" copies from Pavement's "In The Mouth A Desert," came after they'd already been labeled as a Pavement rip.

Anyway, not to say Weezer's wholly original, I just hear too much Beach Boys/Cars/Cheap Trick in them, none of which factor into the Pavement equation in my mind. And there is no Fall in Weezer, but lots in Pavement. I guess maybe the best stuff by both bands is somewhat indebted to the Pixies...

― wl, Thursday, 12 September 2002 12:45 (twenty-three years ago)

A lot of it was timing - Crooked Reign hits early '94, Blue album late '94. Indie grad students vs. Alt-rock grad students.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 12 September 2002 12:48 (twenty-three years ago)

BtC is my second fave Pave album, after S+E. But TT to me is overall the weakest thing they ever did. WZ is in third place, and CRCR rounds things out at number 4. BtC, btw, features two Spiral tunes (both fine), so it doesn't make any sense to call it a Malk solo alb. If I were to rank the real Malk solo alb in this list, I'd put it between CRCR and TT. But I thought the "Sin Taxi" single was grate, so here's hoping the next full-length will be an improvement.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:45 (twenty-three years ago)

I completely affirm the grooverrific in-b'twixt guitar action and lyrical approach of Pavement, yea, as the musical superior to the Floyd wannabe wuss-boys from Oxford. Nigel's production suited TT better than it did on any of the Heads albums because, i think, the production techniques seem like an extra musician on the Heads albums and more like simply an aural treatment on TT. In other words, Pavement threw down this already super tune like The Hexx; then, Nigel comes in and adds production elements that simply enhance what's already there. Production is not the crutch that the Heads seem to use it as.

And let's all remember, Radiohead only has two, count'em two, masterfully rendered albums whilst Pavement have at least double that.

This is the order i listen to 'em in:

Terror Twilight
Crooked Rain
Slanted & Enchanted
Wowee Zowee
Westing (By Musket and Sextant)
Brighten The Corners

Now if Malkmus can only redeem himself from last year's turd...

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:26 (twenty-three years ago)

BTW, i only wish Guided By Voices shared a similar history. ¥

― christoff (christoff), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Peter Gorman's comments in this roundtable discussion sum up pretty well how I view the relative merits of TT.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 September 2002 17:00 (twenty-three years ago)

real question: what's happening with malkmus and ATP?

― steve k, Thursday, 12 September 2002 17:02 (twenty-three years ago)

I rescind my comment that Crooked Rain was an attempt to sound like Weezer: I never bothered to think which came first. Oddly, it was some critic explaining why Pavement is bad because they were always trying to be Weezer but were never as good, that got me to realize what I don't like about CRCR. As far as my Radiohead comparison, it is just that when people think 'accomplished' Pavement is not the first band to come to mind: but I think Pavement music is more accomplished than the bands that do come to mind. Like Radiohead. And you will have to define 'pat', if I am to understand why that undues musical value.

― Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Thursday, 12 September 2002 20:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Pavement = Not that good.

― Melvin Van Horn, Thursday, 12 September 2002 20:50 (twenty-three years ago)

dear god no more pavement threads please

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 12 September 2002 20:52 (twenty-three years ago)

I get the impression that people who think Pavement is the greatest band ever haven't listened to a lot of stuff. Shrug.

― Trey Bien, Thursday, 12 September 2002 20:52 (twenty-three years ago)

wow, i got my answer sandwiched between two anonymous posts from probably the same person! sorry!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 12 September 2002 21:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Sure we could compete, Trey, listing the stuff we've listened to. I'd start from the earliest, excluding classical, with good-'ol Bessie Simth. Should you like to throw down the gauntlet?

― Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Thursday, 12 September 2002 21:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, whip out your dicks. I'll bring the tape measure. *sigh*

― Melissa W (Melissa W), Friday, 13 September 2002 02:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd win, no contest! *sigh*

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 13 September 2002 04:32 (twenty-three years ago)

That was uncalled for Melissa. I didn't go for to actually list them.

― Brian Mowrey (Brian Mowrey), Friday, 13 September 2002 09:52 (twenty-three years ago)

at the time I remember Weezer be regarded as Pavement's Stone Temple Pilots

You say this and it sounds so right - but who was STP's Pavement?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 14 September 2002 21:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought it was supposed to be pearl jam. maybe with a generic other-important-grunge-bands-blend thrown in.

but I don't remember hearing the weezer-pavement thing ANYWHERE except in the all music guide review, which I always thought was just erlewine (it's him right?) talking out his ass. can anyone give some links to contemporary reviews that made the connection?

― Josh (Josh), Saturday, 14 September 2002 21:37 (twenty-three years ago)

likes and dislikes
punks and new wave dykes
explains the hand
to the five fingers

― geof carter, Sunday, 15 September 2002 23:49 (twenty-three years ago)

three years pass...

Hey guys, quick question...

Just found a very old advance copy of Brighten The Corners and seem to remember something odd about this particular advance.

There's an extra track (nothing additional, just an index-splice out of one of the instrumental segues), but isn't there something about this mix or some rough edits or something?

Let me know dudes!

Steve

― Steve Shasta (Steve Shasta), Thursday, 23 February 2006 18:11 (twenty years ago)

Pavement?

this whole debate is misled ... pavement is in-FI-(nite).

― jesus of nazareth, Friday, 24 February 2006 01:41 (twenty years ago)

four years pass...

currently streaming live on wfmu

― john. a resident of chicago., Saturday, 29 May 2010 01:31 (fifteen years ago)

it's a great set. the band seems really into it.

― gravitational anomaly (get bent), Saturday, 29 May 2010 01:32 (fifteen years ago)

if they released a live album of this (record store day '11?) i'd be a happy camper.

― gravitational anomaly (get bent), Saturday, 29 May 2010 01:42 (fifteen years ago)

two years pass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq4JGSxMzms

― Chuck E was a hero to most (s.clover), Friday, 26 April 2013 22:16 (twelve years ago)

I really like Terror Twilight. I have nothing else to add to this thread. Oh, and 'Transport is Arranged' is a great tune

― global tetrahedron, Friday, 26 April 2013 22:25 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRmSoEM16eA

― bodacious ignoramus, Friday, 26 April 2013 22:51 (twelve years ago)

"I mean, how many bands have managed anything as grand and precise as the instrumental breakdowns on Fight This Generation or Transport Is Arranged? Who else can make three guitars dance around each other with the grace, beauty, and whimsy featured in Carrot Rope?"

I read this old post and I started thinking about southern rock like The Outlaws or Skynyrd, as so many of those bands had 3 guitar players. Don't know about the whimsy part being in Green Grass and High Tides or Free Bird though.

― earlnash, Friday, 26 April 2013 23:00 (twelve years ago)

But what did BM have against Crooked Rain? I think the way the guitars wind around each other on Stop Breathin is just as great.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Saturday, 27 April 2013 02:12 (twelve years ago)

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