Latest Definition of Indie

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Ewing's latest definition of 'Indie' =

Defensive Guitar-Based Music With An Air Of Lyrical Vulnerability

(obviously he chose this so it would be a handy acronym: DGBMWAAOLV.)

So, is this the best definition yet?

― the pinefox, Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:38 (twenty-three years ago)

And why is Ewing himself now 'rowing back' and disowning it???

― the pinefox, Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:38 (twenty-three years ago)

No it's awful Pinefox because a lot of it doesn't have lyrics. I can't now remember where we got 'defensive' from either. And Graham stumped us w.r.t. Helen Love too.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Answer to second question - the indie lizards got to me.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:39 (twenty-three years ago)

I think as a description of a lot of indie music - perhaps even most indie music - it's fine. But comprehensive it isn't.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 September 2002 10:53 (twenty-three years ago)

It's an intrinsic / formal definition, which is never going to work very well for indie -- which is pretty definitively NOT a genre -- because so much of 'indie-ness' concerns reception, consumption: both material and attitudinal extras accruing to the music.

― alext (alext), Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:14 (twenty-three years ago)

comprehensive it isn't
Indeed. "Rubbish" is much more so, tho' even that's not fully comprehensive (damn these trend-buckers).

― zebedee (Jeff W), Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:16 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd rather leave it as on an independent label...which is why it's nonsensical to try & define it, stylewise. In it's true sense it means stuff which major labels wouldn't release.

― Jez, Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:17 (twenty-three years ago)

No it doesn't Jez because a) lots of dance (say) labels are independent and if somebody said "I only like indie, make me a tape" and you filled it with Kompakt 12"s they wouldn't be happy, and b) a major label wouldn't release something sung by a Pop Idol first-round reject, but that isn't indie.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:23 (twenty-three years ago)

If I am not mistaken: this definition (T Ewing's) was made in the knowledge of all those objections re. industrial factors, exceptions, etc. It is thus an 'ironic' definition -- but not necessarily a useless one.

― the pinefox, Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:34 (twenty-three years ago)

>>No it doesn't Jez because a) lots of dance (say) labels are independent and if somebody said "I only like indie, make me a tape" and you filled it with Kompakt 12"s they wouldn't be happy<<

but that wouldn't be because Kompakt aren't indie, that'd be because Kompakt are shite.

― joe bloggs, Thursday, 12 September 2002 11:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Helen Love are not indie Q.E.D.. I like this definition.

(Though isn't it a definition of EMO? indie=emo discuss)

― Graham (graham), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Language is the only chimera whose illusory power is endless, the inexhaustibility which keeps life from being impoverished.

― Karl Kraus (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 12 September 2002 13:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh wait, I thought I solved this one the other day. Indie = something about wanting to observe people actually struggling against their instruments and their form, possibly? There's something very effortful about it, this sense that it's better to have someone hunched and squinting over an instrument very seriously "trying something" than to have the music just emerge from the ether as a fully-polished whole. I was thinking about this in conjunction with something I'd been writing about Sleater-Kinney and Le Tigre, and how vastly different their ethos and approaches are within a pretty small space: S-K are the "indie" band ("you can hear us in real-time working to accomplish this, no tricks"), while Le Tigre are alternately punk ("you can hear us working at something, but it doesn't just have to be the music"), pop ("screw the process, here's the show"), and dance.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:33 (twenty-three years ago)

And I don't just mean "authenticity" of process, cause it goes beyond that into every aspect of the form itself. The "content" winds up lying in the effort more so than the results.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 12 September 2002 14:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Nab - I remember Greil Marcus defining punk (possibly with ref to S-K, in fact) as the "effort of people who can't to do ".

Funnily enough, I agree with Graham. Tom's def. works ok as a def. of emo (although I prefer "people who are angry about being sad"). I think we should have a 20 year moratorium on the use of the word indie on these fora.

― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:35 (twenty-three years ago)

i am not emo.

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yes you are!

― RickyT (RickyT), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't one of the main features of indie a rejection of traditional male values? (someone please tear this idea to shreds, I've had it for ages and can't prove it...)

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 12 September 2002 15:58 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, that does sound like emo, the key ingredient being the performer having some sort of roots in hardcore/punk -- emotive punk -- something punks tell themselves is different from what other "sensitive" bands are doing because "goddam, we're punk -- not indie."

― jack cole (jackcole), Thursday, 12 September 2002 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Possible proof of the "effort" definition: IDM as the indie of electronica, wherein people lean studiously over their laptops and effortfully micro-process the sound so that all of that hands-on strain is completely audible.

Possible problem with the "effort" definition: that would mean deciding that IDM is not just appealing to indie listeners, but that it actually is indie. But I like that secondary idea of indie where it consists of a certain part of each genre (i.e., it's not the sound but the approach and the ethos); every genre gets its indie.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 12 September 2002 16:10 (twenty-three years ago)

indie=rock

idm=indie

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 12 September 2002 17:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Nabitsuhco: it took me a couple minutes to put my finger on the problem I was having with your definition -- which is that it places the cart before the horse: in other words, it assumes things about the intent of the artist that I don't believe are necessarily true. The assumption is that the intent is to "try something/push the envelope/etc.", but that excludes the possibility that people already know what sounds they want to make, and want to do so for its own sake, rather than for ideological reasons. Shoehorning the relationship that those sounds have to mainstream forms into an a priori desire to vary for the sake of varying seems strained to me, and it doesn't really fit with my own musical practice. I've never had much reason to change my own definition of indie, which goes something like: tonal, melody-driven music that draws primarily upon the mainstream rock and pop tradition, and whose form and/or content are divergent enough from the contemporaneous mainstream of rock/pop music that it generally fails to attract the interest of major labels and is released on an independent label. Historically, technical proficiency has often been deprecated, song structures are generally simple and adhere to conventional rhythms and harmonies, and traditional forms of improvisation are generally discouraged, but none of these things are ironclad rules of exclusion. Seems simple enough, really, and I can't think of many examples that don't fit. I'd like to be able to call Kranky-label bands like Labradford and Stars of the Lid "indie", but really, that's where the indie and experimental/ambient worlds collide. In any event, when I'm describing what I listen to, I generally am more inclined to say "independent-label music", which is a different kettle of fish. I agree with your train of thought otherwise, for the most part, but I still think you're confusing cause and effect -- "I want to do something different", vs. "the music I want to make happens to be different". I can't deny that there are people who do prize and think about that difference as an end in and of itself, but ultimately records are the product of making sounds hands-on, not of armchair ideology.

― Phil (phil), Thursday, 12 September 2002 19:19 (twenty-three years ago)

What the hell is going on with my line breaks? That's obnoxious.

― Phil (phil), Thursday, 12 September 2002 19:20 (twenty-three years ago)

indie should = independent label, but then it is really to broad of a category to be of any use. really indie is just a prefix, and usually said in abbreviation of indie-rock, which may be hard to define but everyone knows it when they hears it. But there is indie-pop, indie-jazz, etc. like nabisco said.

― g (graysonlane), Thursday, 12 September 2002 20:02 (twenty-three years ago)

NO NO NO, PHIL! I very specifically did NOT say anything about being "different" in those posts, because it's not relevant to the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm having a very hard time verbalizing what I mean, but it's something like: no matter what the artist is doing, new or not, the focus is on hearing them do, the act of the creation, more so than the product -- in fact, a lot of the standard moves of indie serve to make a final product that consists of evidence of that process. (Amateurism and suspicion of technical prowess, for instance.)

The opposite side of the spectrum would be, in part, music that's meant to emerge from the speakers fully-formed, music that intentionally disguises the fact that anyone actually "created" it because it's the end product that's the point.

― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 12 September 2002 22:26 (twenty-three years ago)

...which dovetails with my irrelevant-autonomy ideas of pop, kewl.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 September 2002 22:36 (twenty-three years ago)

So you mean you're not a straw man? ;-)

Seriously, that makes much more sense, or is at least more amenable to me. I was actually having similar thoughts after I posted that -- something about one of the keys to indie being the listener's ability to identify with the creator as a working creator (as opposed to the Athena-from-your-forehead type). I think there's something real -- and double-edged! -- about that, and will have to reflect more to articulate it.

― Phil (phil), Thursday, 12 September 2002 22:47 (twenty-three years ago)

(I'm still laughing over the fact that you put that in all caps. I feel like a dog that's messed on the carpet!)

― Phil (phil), Thursday, 12 September 2002 22:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Indie is the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry of pop music? No wonder I'm such a big fan.

― DeRayMi, Friday, 13 September 2002 02:19 (twenty-three years ago)

"Show me the work." (Ron Silliman or somebody.)

― DeRayMi, Friday, 13 September 2002 02:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe I've just forgotten how to listen to it. I don't know.

― DeRayMi, Friday, 13 September 2002 02:21 (twenty-three years ago)

So does indie rock = giving an enfeebled process-oriented gorm?

― Clarke B., Friday, 13 September 2002 16:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the problem and confusion here is that the historical origins of the term were tied to the type of label. In the '80s most of the music released on independent labels was of a particular kind, this pop-rock outside the mainstream thing. Then independent labels sprung up releasing all kinds of things, and Kylie and Jason kept topping the Indie Chart and all the biggest bands of that kind were signed to huge major labels. It stopped being necessarily related to the type of label and became another genre, which I think Tom's definition is actually an extremely good stab at describing - I'm not sure there are any genre definitions that exclude everything that we know doesn't belong to the genre and includes everything that does: music and even the arts in general aren't that amenable.

I can't believe that anyone still defines their taste against the ownership of labels that release the music.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 14 September 2002 11:19 (twenty-three years ago)

say mongrels!!

― mark s (mark s), Saturday, 14 September 2002 11:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry, mongrel labels. It has the major advantage that it doesn't sound like a term of praise.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 14 September 2002 15:01 (twenty-three years ago)

eight months pass...

Looking at the dates of this conversation, I'm really responding too late. I'm not sure if this is even an issue for anyone anymore; but, I stumbled across this conversation like I stumbled across indie-music. I cought the scent of something and followed it to its source - which, now I know, only leads to other sources. I've been listening to indie music for under a year - so either take my definition with a grain of salt, or realize the value of purity it contains. Indie is music that attempts to replicate the sensation of losing oneself. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that many others have stumbled into Indie the way I did because, unlike other forms of music, it can only be found when one develops an inkling to get lost. It seems to me that Indie, despite the origin of the term, has in a way become defined just as much by the listeners as it has by the bands.

― Albert Guffanti, Thursday, 29 May 2003 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

six months pass...

If the last guy thinks he's late well... I'm just going to wait for Websters. Everyone seems to be taking this way to seriously. What ever you call it i'm just going to turn up the volume.

― Chris Duffey, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 00:50 (twenty-one years ago)

icp is indie

― adam michel (adam michel), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 00:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Indie = archaeologist

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 01:22 (twenty-one years ago)

"Undeground's a position, it is not a style"

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Wednesday, 17 December 2003 01:25 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't really think that Nabisco's point is right, though it has an ingenious air. I think that Phil's original disagreement with it is pretty valid.

O, maybe they are both right, maybe we are all right.

― the pinefox, Wednesday, 17 December 2003 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...

indie

I don’t got no record label, indie.
I don’t got no talent, indie.
Can’t play my instrument, indie.
No time to practice, indie.
Don’t want to learn, indie.
Don’t really know music, indie.
But I really, really, really,
like people lookin’ at me, indie.
And I don’t have the time to wait, indie.
That’s why you do it for me, indie.
Its where I wanna be, indie.
So come on and take me, indie.

Erthona

― erthona, Tuesday, 2 March 2004 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Zing to indie!

― Sym (shmuel), Tuesday, 2 March 2004 10:43 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...

I was listening to the House of Love's instrumental 'Love III' (is that the name of it? Kind of uptempo, on A SPY IN THE HOUSE OF LOVE) today, and thinking: I like this - I like the way it sends out certain signals, belongs to a genre - I like the way it belongs to a different era and attitude from the Beatles and the Stones, much as the HoL may have liked them. It all led me back to Indie, the stuff we've vexed over so much and so long on ILM.

I suppose I was thinking: this track makes me want to go back looking for non-sociological definitions of Indie - not stuff about who listens, or attitude - but textural stuff: how these chords belong so clearly to that vibe, that moment, that couldn't have come before. It all remains a mystery somehow - odd, as I am so intimate with the stuff.

I wonder if anyone knows what I am on about.

― the bellefox, Saturday, 29 May 2004 12:50 (twenty-one years ago)

like this?

― youn, Sunday, 30 May 2004 05:19 (twenty-one years ago)

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drg200/g284/g28443x9hct.jpg

take that, Malkmus!

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Sunday, 30 May 2004 08:09 (twenty-one years ago)

I know that was stupid but I was really bored.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Sunday, 30 May 2004 08:15 (twenty-one years ago)

according to telstar this is "indie" as a marketing compilation album concept:

Crash: Indie Anthems 1986-2004:

[released 31st may]

Disc One

1. Don't Look Back Into The Sun-The Libertines

2. Take Me Out-Franz Ferdinand

3. Molly's Chambers-Kings Of Leon

4. Supersonic-Oasis

5. Love Spreads-The Stone Roses

6. Here Comes Your Man-Pixies

7. Cannonball-The Breeders

8. Promises Promises-The Cooper Temple Clause

9. Animal Nitrate-Suede

10. True Faith-New Order

11. Joe-Inspiral Carpets

12. Mr Pharmacist-The Fall

13. Connection-Elastica

14. Hate To Say I Told You So-The Hives

15. Danger! High Voltage-Electric Six

16. House Of Jealous Lovers-The Rapture

17. You & Me Song-Wannadies

18. A Minha Menina-The Bees

19. Blister In The Sun-Violent Femmes

20. There She Goes-The La's

Disc Two

1. Step On-Happy Mondays

2. Rocks-Primal Scream

3. The Only One I Know-The Charlatans

4. Sit Down-James

5. In Between Days-The Cure

6. She Sells Sanctuary-The Cult

7. This Corrosion-The Sisters Of Mercy

8. April Skies-The Jesus And Mary Chain

9. Been Caught Stealing-Jane's Addiction

10. World Shut Your Mouth-Julian Cope

11. Shine On-The House Of Love

12. Electricity-Spiritualized

13. Seventeen-Ladytron [Soulwax Mix]

14. Kennedy-The Wedding Present

15. Unbearable-The Wonder Stuff

16. Can U Dig It?-P.W.E.I.

17. Kill Your Television-Ned's Atomic Dustbin

18. Brimful Of Asha-Cornershop

19. Groovy Train-The Farm

20. Crash-Primitives

― DJ Martian (djmartian), Sunday, 30 May 2004 20:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Trying to define indie is a pretty futile exercise, and I also think it's a red herring, where the real intention for people is to justify why they like what they like. If you can "define" indie, then you can find a quick, easy excuse to like it. My stance is to not make excuses for liking anything, just enjoy whatever comes naturally to you.

― Serya (Z_Ayres), Sunday, 30 May 2004 23:51 (twenty-one years ago)

that compilation should be called 'music for tedious unimaginative cunce'

― the surface noise made by people (electricsound), Monday, 31 May 2004 00:05 (twenty-one years ago)

eight months pass...

People and Accounts of Note
By THE NEW YORK TIMES
Published: July 20, 2004

IndieClick was opened in Los Angeles to focus on marketing to “indie” consumers — loosely defined by the agency as 16-to-28-year-olds who are early adopters of new products or services — primarily through ads on a network of 25 Web sites like stereokiller.com, which bills itself as an “informational resource and community for the underground music scene.” Peter Luttrell, chief executive and president at 3jane, the IndieClick parent, becomes chief executive and president at IndieClick as well.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/20/business/media/20adco_media.html

― Creamed Corn Chum, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 19:22 (twenty years ago)

Indie Click Dot Com

― Creamed Corn Chum, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

"Power is the ability to define phenomena and have them react accordingly."

- Huey Newton

― Creamed Corn Chum, Wednesday, 16 February 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

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