Mortiis again: Is it okay to like white extremist music?

how about artists whose views, uh, off the record, are questionable? ron asheton's ss uniform comes to mind...even if he's not racist, it's not particularly inspiring...

again, i sure as shit don't care either way.

is it "okay" to like music made by racists? depends on the person, doesn't it? i have no problem with listening to artists, whatever their political views, if i enjoy their music; however, if i found out that, say, graveland were using the profits from their CDs to make bombs and use them against 'non-aryans' i wouldn't buy them.

i think a lot of 'national socialist' bands these days are into it more for shock value than anything - nazism is the new satanism.

You have to ask?

that doesn't apply to wagner

And fantastic music.

If the artist sings about his or her viewpoints in their music, I could hardly ever consider liking their music- I'm sure the snappy chorus of "kill the pakis" or whatever would make me wanna turn it off no matter how wonderful the bass playing is.

As for artists who merely promote hatred in their private lives or in interviews, it's totally legitimate to say that you don't wanna purchase/promote anything by them because you do not agree with their ideals- this just means you hold your own ideals in higher regard than your love of art, and I don't see anything wrong with that.

However, letting good music get ruined for you because of some stupid comment the artist let out is silly and ultimately more about refusing to believe that you could accept ANYTHING said by a person with views which you consider to be hateful- bigots can still make great music.

They had a clear ideological agenda alongside their fascination with war etc, and as I understand it it's a peculiar brand of anarchism that is usually allied with the far right. It's about an individualism so intense it sees the only 'best' world as one in which people trust their instincts, the weak go to the wall or stay in the 'herd', and the strong are engaged in a state of constant, warfare, and are individuals beyond any constraints of 'civilisation' and 'above' moral law.

It's more sophisticated than day-to-day far right ideas, but right wing nevertheless.

(...and hanging with old black metal friends is kidn of funny, my cousin burned down a church....)

That Pope/Nazi cover wasn't an endorsement!

i listened to 'crypt of the wizard' by mortiis tonight, and thought that it sucked. it just sounded like typical, run-of-the-mill, crappy dark ambient, to me. i thought, beforehand, that it was supposed to be some kind of gothic black metal thing, but no.

anyway. i wasn't aware that he supposedly holds any supremacist views. you know, i just assumed that there was probably an alright guy behind the mask, since he's associated with projekt records. does anyone have any sources or proof of mortiis holding those kind of views? if it's actually true that he does, that kind of just freaks me out so much that i won't even want to keep the mp3s i have of him on my computer, and, i'll think much, much less, possibly nothing, of projekt records on the whole for having anything to do with him.

but, i've read into mortiis a little, and i read nothing about this.
is this really true?

wait, i meant that the album sounded to me like "typical, run-of-the-mill, crappy dark ambient with some theatrics".

Maybe the questioner confused Mortiis with Burzum?

Would the Norwegian government do something like this if the white extremist stuff was clearly out there?

(on the other hand, he was in Emperor (stories about burning churches and killing homosexuals) for a while, so who knows?)

i'll definitely have to look more into this myself, but as of now, i really doubt mortiis is any kind of a bad guy. i mean, he's associated with projekt records, whom have always seemed like a great big family of good old, wholesome goths.

about the emperor stories, it seems like all black metal bands have those myths and rumors about them. i don't think mortiis was with that band for long at all though, either.

Does Mortis wear his mask around in everyday life?

Apparantly, Mortiis just took off the make up and pulled an 80's KISS. This totally bums me out because I was under the impression that he had plastic surgery to look that. Mortiss you disappoint me so...

Also, I love crappy art on his website. Nobody rocks the "inspecting something on the ground" motiff like good old Morty.

http://www.mortiis.net/galeria/main.php?cmd=image&var1=Arte%2F84810.jpg&var2=680_85
http://www.mortiis.net/galeria/main.php?cmd=image&var1=Arte%2Fmortiispencil.jpg&var2=680_85

Mortiis sans makeup: http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/nargaslocas/Mortiis.jpg

Rather like someone you might see at a hardcore show in South Jersey.

I'm surprised just how recognisable he is without the schnozz

bring back the nose

i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool. but, i guess that mortiis was only with that band for a short time, early on. he was kicked out of the band though, and deported from their country, for reasons unspecified, so. . . i've searched around a little, but haven't actually found that mortiis himself holds any supremacist views. so, eh. i'm not too worried about it now, i guess. in my book, mortiis is still just some guy, and projekt records is still pretty great. . . .even though, for me, at least about half of all these gothic artists are "guilty pleasures", anyway.

Maybe the questioner confused Mortiis with Burzum?

-- MacDara, Thursday, September 20, 2007 8:18 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

that's probably the case.

If I remember correctly from interviews of that time there were no hard feelings involved in Mortiis' departure from Emperor.

He wanted the band to focus on a fantasy story concept based on the 'Emperor' character they used in the early lyrics. The rest of the members weren't really fond of the idea, so he got himself some keyboards and did it on his own (I assume the Cold Meat Industry albums like "Keiser Av En Dimension Ukjent" deal with that stuff).

About the move to Sweden, I recall reading that it suited his rock'n'roll lifestyle better than Norway. In the interviews I've read he seems to be a friendly and funny guy, a Kiss fan to boot.

"He wanted to pursue his career fronting a humanitarian joke band"

yeah i dunno. i get a little skeptical when punk dudes are like oh the first couple skrewdriver records are actually pretty good...it's like yeah i guess there's nothing wrong with listening to it, but at the same time, there's a lot of music that's good that sounds EXACTLY the same, so like why listen to the white power version?

unless this mortiis dude is like super amazing or something. i doubt it though. he looks like fucking clown shoes.

Well, the first couple of Skrewdriver records aren't white power records. They just have a future nazi dickbag singing them.

Now buying (bootleg) reissues of them might well be putting money into white power groups' pockets, but that's another issue.

It's a problem, yeah. If the lyrics are racist, then chances are it's going to stay in that community, but on the other hand: Lemmy from Motorhead, Ron Asheton from the Stooges, ... collect Nazi parafernalia "but they're totally not nazi's, really!"

I'm not 100% comfortable with that, but somehow, I find myself not throwing away their records. Should I think I'm a hypocrite because of this? :-/

Ashton's made some comments in the past that he's not only into it for the "cool" gear.

Do people have a problem buying music put out by bands with communist/anarchist/"far-leftist" views, too?

Well, I guess they burned Dixie Chicks CDs, so I suppose I've answered my own question.

Not that the Dixie Chicks are communist, anarchist, or far-left. Just that the people who burned their CDs might be inclined to burn CDs by bands adhering to the aforementioned ideologies.

Godspeed You! Black Emperor better watch out.

Well there's all that Rock Against Communism stuff by those racist white power scumbag bands. I'm sure they would burn all of the stuff they didn't agree with idealogically (that's a lot of burning)

Is it because the anarchist/leftist rubbish is somehow considered less dangerous than the far-right racist crap? More naive? Less sinister?

Noses are too small. Also, ears not pointy enough.

SORRY BU6T I RATHER BE STALIN THAN HJOITLER...MAO EVEN BETTER PROPAGANDA HAS TJHE COOL FASCTOR UNLIKE NAZIS THEY ARE KITXCSCH BUT COMMIES HAVE THEEDGE IN DESIGN ID SAUY THE CHINESE LEAD TOBTHE APOTHEISISSOUSS IN KOREA WHOSE REGEOME IS CORIPUT BUT THE DESIGN EXQUISITE

Is it because the anarchist/leftist rubbish is somehow considered less dangerous than the far-right racist crap? More naive? Less sinister?

maybe it's that the anarchist/leftist stuff is something with which one can honestly disagree, rather than stuff believable only by fucking morons?

i love satan. all of you areretrds,

Perhaps, John. But it's hard to feel much beyond revulsion for someone sporting a Che shirt (for instance), given what we know about the man himself, to say nothing of the disaster that is Cuba. I'd definitely put Che worship down as "stuff believable only by fucking morons".

Do people refuse to buy Emperor or Dissection albums because Jon Nodtveidt and Bard Faust were convicted of murdering homosexuals?

And just for the record, I'm asking because I'm genuinely interested in the answers, not in trying to construct some bullshit defense of "white power" rubbish.

I think the difference is that, unlike fascism and "white power", on a theoretical level anarchism and communism are benign ideologies. Or at least most of their current strands are. The fact that horrible things have been done in the name of communism doesn't change the fact that most musicians who identify as communists are most likely against intolerance, racism, and inequality in general, whereas "white power" or nazi musicians usually support those things. Worshipping so-called communist heroes is a different thing though. I have nothing against people who support communism in general, but if they're wearing a Lenin t-shirt I think they're pretty stupid, because he was a dictator and a murderer. Though to be honest, most Western communists have denounced him ages ago, and the people who wear Lenin memorabilia are more likely to be postmodern nostalgia freaks instead of proper communists.

As a (non-radical obv) leftist, I am actually also a little curious as to why people who are more or less just liberals would put Che Guevara on a T-shirt as opposed to, say, Gandhi. (I suspect I know the answer already.)

That cool beret.

nobody wanna fuck gandhi

Gandhi's merch guy sucks.

Is it because the anarchist/leftist rubbish is somehow considered less dangerous than the far-right racist crap?

Compare the bombs of the Weather Underground to Tim McVey.

i saw ghandi open for six finger satellite, it was okay. kinda reminded me of pere ubu.

"(I suspect I know the answer already.)"

It's that photo. (I did a paper on the iconography of revolutionary Latin America once, and while there's a lot of sentiments that I disagree with in it, it's also got a lot of great art. Kinda like how I can enjoy some Girls Aloud without worrying too much about their gender politics.)

Compare the bombs of the Weather Underground to Tim McVey.

They both killed people. So what?

And anyways, I'd dispute the notion that modern "leftish" movements are necessarily benign, but I live in Eugene, so I'll admit that my perception might be skewed.

the disaster that is Cuba

um, the three people I know who have travelled there this decade all say that the average folks are better off than in Mexico/Guatemala/etc. I don't think "disaster" is a given. And Mcveigh killed a whole lot of innocent people, I'm not aware of a Weather bomb killing anyone except themselves.

But I live in Eugene also, so my perception is definitely skewed in a different direction than yours. Although as an anarchist I have a lot of mistrust for lefties with guns as well, they killed a bunch of us too.

Also, I would not buy Emperor albums for the reasons you cited above.

too bad

There's free healthcare for all in Cuba isn't there?

But I live in Eugene also

Oh, right. I remember that you brought a list of CDs that some shithead stole from you into the record store I used to work at. Were you ever able to recover any of those, by the way?

I don't think "disaster" is a given.

This isn't the line that I hear pushed when lefties start talking about how awful the American economic sanctions are ;)

And you could sub "Unabomber" (a radical environmentalist if ever there was one) with "Weather Underground," if you wanted to.

Anyways, this is ILM, not dKos, so maybe we should stop talking politics before we go off topic entirely (if we haven't already!).

You're really missing out on Emperor, though! ;)

the early stuff anyway

The early stuff is the best, but even "Prometheus" isn't without merit if you can get over the more commercial, non-KVLT-ness of it. Kind of unfair to call it an "Emperor" album, though, since it's pretty much just an Isahn solo project. But whatever.

"I don't think "disaster" is a given."

When people try to leave a country on a daily basis on makeshifts rafts risking shark infested waters, sometimes leaving family members behind, knowing they can't return, I'd pretty much call that a disaster. How many people try to immigrate TO Cuba???

http://www.metalheart.pl/foto/ozz.00965.jpg

r u even serious

thats fucking rad!!!

Mortiis to all haters: I'M STILL STANDING, TALLER THAN I EVER DID, LOOKING LIKE A TRUE SURVIVOR, FEELING LIKE A LITTLE KID, SO FUCK OFF

i...what?

whoah.

hey novaheat, thanks for asking about the CDs yes they were recovered - misplaced not stolen.

lol j0hn

Sleeve: Good to hear, man.

Mortiis for the win, though.

Hihi, I too have wondered on Mortiis, "is this man serious." These pictures are aiding an answer to that one:

<img src="http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/nargaslocas/Mortiis.jpg";>

SKIT

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/nargaslocas/Mortiis.jpg

from a '97 interview with the grimoire:

The band Moonspell... apparently thou called them niggers.
Did I?

Yes. Canst thou explain this?
They're from Portugal. I think once - this is something like three years ago - I was in a very desructive mood. It was in like a twilight zone. I didn't know what I was doing or whatever, and I saw this interview in a Hungarian magazine which I do not recall the name of. They interviewed somebody from Moonspell, and this is like three or four weeks after Euronymous is dead and Grishnak is in jail. And he (Moonspell member) was starting to open his mouth and just slagging these people off. I said, OK, you could have done this like half a year ago when these people had a chance to defend themselves. What a fucking coward! And I just wrote him this letter. I'm not sure if I called him a nigger. But if I did, that was just to piss him off. I'm not a racist. Really.

Is there a problem with black people in Sweden?
Well I don't really know. Sweden has a very strange moral when it comes to, shall we say, colored people. They seem to get a lot more advantages than the normal Swedish unemployed person, whcih I think is fucked up because this is Sweden and it should prioritize its own people. I don't mind them letting black people or whatever here. As long as they don't do me any harm I couldn't do them any harm.

that last paragraph is like something out of the black metal room on slsk. except with less screeching about jews.

he comes across pretty much as a man in the street. it is also worth noting, of course, that he himself migrated to sweden.

http://files.myopera.com/NorthernVantage/albums/132438/MortiisonLawnTractor.JPG

XD

waht

What is this white extremist music you talk about? Music like Wilco and such?

i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.i've read a little more into it. the arson and murder about emperor is true. that's uncool.

http://koti.kapsi.fi/~tzaeru/Mortiis%20-%20Lawn%20Tractor.JPG

well which of these kids is doin' his own thing/come on now can you tell me which one?

ahahaahahah