TS: The Fall v Cheap Trick

Starting [a href=Let an EXCELSIOR be an EXCELSIOR, and let sleeping LOLS lie}here[/a], lots of discussion about the relative merits of the two bands.

For me it's The Fall, but am uncommon in the UK for liking Cheap Trick a lot too.

surely albini putting the fall and cheap trick on at the same time counts as irl trolling

― goole, Monday, 2 April 2012 15:25 (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Fall

Cheap Trick did some great things. They also did "The Flame" and that cover of "Don't Be Cruel". So...the Fall.

CHEAP TRICK

I don't think I've ever heard Cheap Trick beyond whatever their famous song was <-------- LOL Britishes

I've never seen either of them live though, and I imagine that at this moment in time, Cheap Trick is a better live band

sensing a US/ UK divide forming...

fuck The Fall

Cheap Trick, why bcs Oh Candy Hot Love Auf Wiedershen On Top of the World Surrender Dream Police If You Want My Love I Want You To Want Me Southern Girls ELO Kiddies

LOL Britishes

― Charles Kennedy Jumped Up, He Called 'Oh No'. (Tom D.), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:28 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

Hot Love Daddy Should Have Stayed In High School Downed Taxman Mr. Thief So Good To See You

it's cheap trick and also i'm constantly shocked whenever all the unabashed fall love on ilx gets a free pass. what a boring fucking band.

Entire novels could be written with The Fall titles!

xp I don't agree they get a free pass- c.f. contents of this thread.

a free pass for what?

for being so yawn-inducing

lol whatever Mordy, MES has been trolling rock nerds since before you were born

I was at the festival in question, no particular attraction to either band, saw The Fall. Afterwards my best friend was in ecstasies. "You could tell which songs they were playing! I've only been to two Fall gigs where you could tell which songs they were playing!"

One of the great things about growing up in Chicagoland was hearing "So Good To See You" and "Surrender" on the radio hourly (pre-Budokan).

There aren't any Fall songs I like as much as the best Cheap Trick songs, but I don't think there's a cumulative album's-worth of Cheap Trick songs that I'm crazy about. The same can't be said for the Fall.

P.S. You forgot "I Know What I Want", VG!

I doubt either band would make it into my top 200, though.

I sang "Surrender" at live band karaoke once, so I might throw Cheap Trick a bone for the moment of glory they bequeathed upon me.

I'm v glad you didnt make this into a poll

What is the Fall's signature piece of gear?

http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/rick_nielsen-5-neck.jpg

what a boring fucking band.

― Mordy, Monday, April 2, 2012 10:32 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes

Cheap Trick has at least an album's worth of songs I like. The Fall has one song. Going with Cheap Trick.

xp I was just thinking "what this thread really needs is a poll".

Which is the song you like EZ?

I bought one Fall album, illegally downloaded another and a boxset, and skimmed through parts of a fourth on youtube. Nothing even came close to grabbing me.

I know it's a cliche, but they're the kind of band you either "get" or don't, not like Cheap Trick at all in that respect perhaps.

Cheap Trick for sure. The Fall is good, but let's face it: you're on a desert island with one disc, it's gonna be a compilation of Cheap Trick, not the Fall.

i like Cheap Trick, but The Fall in a walk. haters can STEP RIGHT OFF.

I 'get" The Fall. Just don't think it's anything particularly special.

then you don't "get" The Fall.

I "get" Cheap Trick, if IWYtWM and Surrender are anything to go by, and ditto.

No, I don't "enjoy" The Fall. I "get" what people find appealing but I find it appalling.

lol Neil I thought that at first too re: poll, but fifteen posts in, I decided I'd be too angry if the Fall lost (purely subjective reaction btw)

also:

Cheap Trick for sure. The Fall is good, but let's face it: you're on a desert island with one disc, it's gonna be a compilation of Cheap Trick, not the Fall.

― Poliopolice, Monday, April 2, 2012 3:56 PM (5 minutes ago)

^this is way fucking offtm

Is the Fall considered good music to drive around to? What do you do to the Fall?

Neil - the one song I like, maybe even love, is "Cruiser's Creek". I've heard a few of the weird 90s stuff I think I could get into if I took the time, but the canonical 70s and 80s recordings leave me cold.

drink beers

xp

Really? What kind of beers? I don't buy that for one second.

90s stuff = 90s songs. No idea why I typed stuff.

Fuck Cheap Trick, I'll take the Fall. (ps I am more or less American)

i always imagine ppl listening to the fall while flipping through their high school yearbooks and trying to sniff up their tears from all the nostalgia and that message from your high school ex about how you'll always be together even tho they moved abroad the next year. nb idk if any of this is true, or if they even have yearbooks in UK

are we talking about the same Fall?

?????????

I had a Fall album in HS; I dug it a bit, but I was def not ready for any part of the Fall until I was like 22. 23....

I'll always imagine people listening to the fall in shabby grey trenchcoats over sweatervests, trying to separate loose tobacco from loose amphetamines out of their pockets.

xxxp you're thinking of The Cure.

xpost. If I'm on a desert island with one disc, it'd probably be any of several Fall albums vs. any Cheap Trick compilation. American, fwiw. I'd like to hear what Fall haters think of "Free Range" instead of the 80's stuff for a change.

Anyway, two bands aren't comparable. I don't think there is a comparison for Fall. Off the top of my head, maybe Robyn Hitchcock has a similar career arc (starts in '76, mid-career mainstream flirtation, and current constant possibility of a comeback hanging over our heads) but even that's stretching things.

also "cab it up", love that song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wf98skHVoQ

I'm about halfway through TNSG. Fuck, this is one annoying band. "Vixen" is the one with the woman singer? I think I liked that 'best' so far. I don't dislike this in a "this is bad" way as much as an "I don't get this yet" way, which usually tends to inspire a perverse will to try harder. (Sometimes I try to imagine that it's a Sonic Youth record with, um, a British singer and vaguely surf-ish guitar riffs, which actually sounds good when I type it.) I really should probably use my time to practise or something instead though.

xp I like the first three comps that contenderizer named, but I like Hex Enduction Hour, Live At The Witch Trials, and Hip Priest And Kamerads (a sort of comp in its own right) more. Don't get the people who'd settle for a Cheap Trick comp at all, though.

covers r cheating, but

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxWhoOxqPGA

I think the vocals are what I like least?

recent fall tune i like a lot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZDk-OIMnM

excellent for playing super fucking loud while driving around in an ostentatious manner and with windows unfurled

I think the vocals are what I like least?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:29 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, if there's a sticking point, that's gonna be it

a few more random selections

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZToNDehlInA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nJXTQEZwdw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAKhtPXxf8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwRIOsu8SrU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHAMOumuL7w

Thank you guys, I have lots to study now!!!

Can I just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CWf1FwwePw

I think the vocals are what I like least?

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:29 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, if there's a sticking point, that's gonna be it

― preternatural concepts concerning variances in sound and texture (contenderizer), Tuesday, April 3, 2012 12:33 AM (25 seconds ago)

ha, this is like "my least favorite part of jimi hendrix is his guitar playing"

Yeah, considering "The Fall" is simply a revolving cast around MES, his vocals do basically equal Hendrix's guitar playing.

considering "The Fall" is simply a revolving cast around MES

Well, didn't use to be that way.

MES vocals = hendrix guitar playing is one of the funniest gifts ILM has ever provided. MES lyrics arguably = hendrix on guitar. MES vocals = hendrix with one finger and one string, playing an endless cover of "louie louie".

MES vocals = hendrix guitar playing is one of the funniest gifts ILM has ever provided.

OTM

I'm not sure TNSG would have been a good entry point for me. Wonderful and Frightening World was the great transformative record, but the period right after that was a little one-note. Not that it lasted for long - as I said, I think they started having more texture and subtlety with Frenz.

Cheap Trick have probably had 1 tour in the US that played for more people than every US Fall gig.

The Fall have tons and tons of records of similar quality, where Cheap Trick even when they were at their pinnacle, I think had some miss moments.

They are just too divergent a groups to really accurately compare, as what each is good at the other one is kind of shite.

"Carry Bag Man" sounds like something from TNSG, but man, Wolstencroft ramped up their energy.

anybody who'd recommend TNSG as an entry point for pop fans in general is completely insane

yeah def at least listen to 'dragnet' and 'live at the witch trials' before giving up on em.

'wonderful and frightening' was my entry point and i remember alternating between thinking 'god, this is amazing' and 'jesus, these songs are all about three minutes too long' for about six months. then i heard 'dragnet' and it all fell into place.

For me it was "Totale's Turns" but, mm, is that a good "in"?

Yeah, why not.

The Fall are a really good covers band, as mentioned upthread. Here are a few of my faves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvl3zPtwa6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4VdcMXVO_g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSNTIuwgAKs

Warning: the last video features a rather alarming gallery of pictures of MES.

alarming possibly redundant there.

i have issues w/ the fall and fall-partisanship but still the fall, obv

― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan)

Not really a discussion I can get into because The Fall are hardwired into me (to put it simply - 'I do love the bad things about them'), tho I also like Cheap Trick. But just wanted to otm this post, because even as a v hardcore fan, I tire very very quickly of most Fall chat/writing (exude dreadful superiority), and think MES has long jumped the shark as a media person, tho not as an artist, even if the recent stuff is patchy. Will avoid trying to convince anyone of their excellence, particularly thru the not very helpful idea that you have to 'get' them - although this 'clicking' did happen to me - but it's patronising to say to people who don't like them. Almost tempted to say Cheap Trick just to troll myself.

I don't think it's patronising to suggest that they're a band you either "get" or don't. I'm not suggesting I or anyone else has any special insight because I like The Fall, just that people I know (and also on this board) seem to like pretty much the whole (or significant proportions) of their body or work or just don't like any of it.

I'm about halfway through TNSG. Fuck, this is one annoying band. "Vixen" is the one with the woman singer? I think I liked that 'best' so far. I don't dislike this in a "this is bad" way as much as an "I don't get this yet" way, which usually tends to inspire a perverse will to try harder. (Sometimes I try to imagine that it's a Sonic Youth record with, um, a British singer and vaguely surf-ish guitar riffs, which actually sounds good when I type it.) I really should probably use my time to practise or something instead though.

― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, April 3, 2012 12:26 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

My opinion on them after trying TNSG for the first time was that it sounded like the B-52s robbed of everything that made the B-52s charming and exciting to listen to.

you don't get the fall, the fall get you maaan

This is the thing about picking an "accessible" album, too often it's like trying to access the rough end of town via a nice clean freeway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Leeds_Irish_Centre_-_York_Road_-_geograph.org.uk_-_564100.jpg

^ last place i saw the fall play, pretty hostile, from what i remember it was a great gig. saw them again at some festival last year and left after 2 songs. it was so bad. i'm not a fall fanatic, i can probably name about ten songs.

'spoilt victorian child' is the current favorite, heard it on new years eve dropped in between some disco dancing music. the breakdown and SURPRISE BREAK works so well on the dancefloor.

For anyone who digs The Fall before 1990 but has never checked out more, please sample the two 90s comps "A World Bewitched" and "A Past Gone Mad". Now we just need an overview of the 00s...

Love all the passion for The Fall itt. I offer a Newcastle Brown to each and every one of my brothers and sisters in MES...

I'd go fot the 50000 Fall Fans comp; it does a p good job of spanning their whole career. The first disc has most of the great early singles and a bunch of the standout classic album tracks. I question the TNSG inclusions at the end (Spoilt Victorian Child, Cruisers Creek) I probably wouldve went with Couldn't Get Ahead or L.A. or Barmy (<-those songs, along with Paintwork and Damo Suzuki were, and still are, my faves from that album)

The second disc is post-1985 and tbh I think they kind of bungle it badly (no Bonkers in Phoenix, no 4 1/2 Inch, no Dr Bucks Letter) but its still somewhat useful. Imo the Fall's artistic resuscitation starts in full in '97, with Levitate. You can kind of hear that: the last four songs on Disc 2 feel like an upswing, like its gathering momentum for something. That something was the 00s, which turned out to be a GREAT decade for the Fall...

Anyways, this would probably be a good beginner's track for anyone trying to get into the Fall:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIljbEJidv4

I bought 458489 A sides and gave it a spin a couple of times a year for several years before The Fall finally clicked with me.

I like some tracks on TNSG but can't really dig it on the whole. I guess it's a bridge between their earlier and later periods but def not where I'd recommend somebody to start, too lol 80s.

xp That's a really good comp. My fave off that one is this, IMO another good place to start:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzivmOQWkVQ

It took me ten years to really get into the fall, but I'm glad it finally clicked. The album that finally sucked me in was Perverted by Language.

<i>^ this. Also, Tom Petersson has more strings on his bass than most bands have on all their guitars combined. More bass strings = more rock.

― Dancing with Mr. T (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, April 2, 2012 9:03 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink</i>

you'll love 311!

Cheap Trick were very good tonight. Lots of stuff off the first, third, fourth, and fifth albums. Maybe nothing off of the second album?

Can The Fall say that?

man legit warm fuzzies upon rewatching the Blindness Mitsubishi commercial

Cheap Trick were very good tonight. Lots of stuff off the first, third, fourth, and fifth albums. Maybe nothing off of the second album?

Can The Fall say that?

The Fall would never do that many old songs in a gig. You go to a Fall gig and you're going to pretty much get whatever their new album is, with a few old songs maybe sprinkled in.
And the old songs are going to sound completely different from whatever the original recording sounded like.

Sounds disappointing imo

Maybe nothing off of the second album?

And so does this.

The Fall is a band that people talk about way too much for my liking, considering how boring I find MES's music/persona to be, generally. Still, I'd rather people talk endlessly about The Fall than I would something I actively hate. So carry on.

The Fall are talked about a lot cos for the people who really like them it is weird , perverse , uncontrollable kind of love - one based around wordplay, esoteric references, failure, destruction, ambivalence, fire and strangeness - around every corner is another corner and at every brick wall there is a trap door. If ever the topic of the band comes up those in thrall are just are unable to stop themselves burbling and gibbering with excitement. That's how I feel anyway - quite different to other bands where I am able to control myself far better. This (ILM) is maybe the only place where you feel there is another band of people who might feel the same way - they are completely off most peoples radars otherwise and if they are on the radar but unloved then they will be despised. Until they click they will seem completely dull, all songs sound the same etc...and the allure of The Fall and the passion with which they are spoken of will seem totally baffling and ultimately annoying as many have implied up thread.

This is part of the appeal also - the strange devotion of those in love verses the ticked off bafflement of the poor underwhelmed hoarde.

Anyhow: The Fall.

I guess that previous post was like a guy at a party giving you the same opinion you have heard a hundred times before. Struggling to articulate the appeal of The Fall to naysayers one of their other enduring qualities.

I like the Fall, I was just drunkenly saying "I Just Saw Cheap Trick And They Were Great"

set list

Hello There
He's a Whore
Elo Kiddies
Just Got Back
On Top of the World
Ain't That a Shame
The House is Rockin'
Heaven Tonight
If You Want My Love
Need Your Love
That 70s Song
Stop This Game
I Know What I Want
The Flame
I Want You to Want Me
Dream Police
California Man
Surrender
Gonna Raise Hell
Goodnight

I guess "Hello There" and "I Want You to Want Me" are from the second album but they played the Budokan version.

"He's a Whore" was a fan request. I was disappointed by no "Southern Girls" or "Oh Candy" but they did a more hard rock radio type concert, probably because that's Houston's history. They've been varying the set list each night this tour.

In conclusion, Robin Zander has held up better than Mark E. Smith vocally and physically.

Excellent post, Picker of Hinkle. I share your view of The Fall, there are times when nothing else will do and all is right with the world when listening to MES. I find worthy songson every release, 30 albums on.

Still not sure I'd want a pint with the man. For starters, I can barely understand him when he speaks in interviews!

no doubt in my mind that if I ever was in the same room as MES I'd be terrified of him

I thought so too, but he's actually very polite and courteous in person.