Class and race: enemies of creativity in pop?

Japan has no significant racial minorities and is still a 'consensus society', de-emphasising class differences. Murakami's Superflat philosophy is precisely about this: superflat means 'devoid of perspective' but also 'devoid of hierarchy, all existing equally and simultaneously.'

Japan in a nutshell: the graphic design is flat, the social structure is flat. The music, on the other hand, is fizzy.

ps "race" is totally bogus 19th-century "science" anyway. Sorry to get Ebony-and-Ivory abt it, but all humans are the SAME RACE: racism is the belief otherwise.

Or British and Irish people?

"Race" and "class" are big fuck-off concepts which everyone believes they'll be CAUGHT OUT on: make the wrong assertion and HA! So you're a nazi!! (viz. David Icke with his Lizard-People-Rule-the-World theory being picketed by straight-faced anti-racist activists). The step from "race" (= bogus 19th century science) to , er, "Ethno-Cultural Identity" (or any term-shift by which you CAN generalise about, say, the diffs between Germans and Austrians) evades the problem w/o removing it, of course: cuz it either hardwires Absolute Cultural Relativism or somewhere sneaks racism-in-sheep's-clothing back thru some other door.

Pop music gets created. The circumstances of its creation are interesting, but not as interesting (for me) as the circumstances of its reception. Ideas like "race" and "class" and "Japan" and "the West" and "pop" and "interest" and "silliness" and "the weather" have an impact on the reception and when writing about the reception of pop it's fun (or serious) to play around with them and deploy them.

I think generally, yeah, race and class in the terms you're talking about get too much share-of-voice in poptalk if only because it surely requires a lot of subconscious self analysis, of oneself as a representative of a race and class, and a lot of times people miss that out. We've all heard of Mailer's 'White Negro', we're all up on subcultueral theory and slumming it (Mark S's comments a few weeks ago on pop and 'cruising' were good, tho) - not sure where replacing this with, I don't know what you'd call it, 'gaijin chic' maybe, would get us....

And actually it was a diagnosis rather than a prescription (aka a massive ethno-cultural generalisation!!!)

And of course (to get uppity and offensive) the upshot has historically been that Brit would-be creatives have hightailed into nearby pop or TV, hence the (occasional, otherwise inexplicable) world-historical superiority of these zones. Superiority over contemporaneous outlander pop/TV AND contemporaneous Brit "high" art. (Trans: Radiohead are useless, but not as as useless as Martin Amis, etc etc...)

Would i buy an emma bunton goes street-rap album ? - yes would i buy a eric clapton goes street-rap album ? - no

Why ?

Mark E. Smith seen from London: fascinatingly exotic example of proletarian 'other', bolshy northerner, love object for embarrassed public schoolboys (John Peel type). Singing skills, musical interests and design abilities seen as irrelevant. (Unjustly, I sadly add.)

And also you could surely find a better example than a man who writes songs called 'Prole Art Threat' and lyrics like "I am the white crap that talks back". Should pop writers ignore lyrical/title content?

I don't think his singing is irrelevant. Obviously he's not a techically gifted singer (I'm on the side of the Japanese here) but his vocal style is essential.

As for the graphic design, you may be right. I love that scratchy aesthetic but it seems to be complementary to his music rather than a prime focus of interest. I'm not as interested in graphic design as I am in music, and I'll take your word for it that this is symptomatic of the culture I live in.

I live in London, btw.

Speaking for myself, I like the Fall because I find them creative and inspired and stimulating; what I love about Mark E. Smith's lyrics is the entire cultural mythology they've created rather than some dubious glamour of the "noble proletariat". But I would also agree with Tom that, when people start invoking phraseology like "Prole Art Threat", it's equally false and constricting to discuss them without at least *wondering* what such terminology might mean. Shaun Ryder or Ian Brown would have been far better Mancunian icons for Momus to invoke if he wanted to denigrate the idealisation of scuzzy, drugged- up hedonism.

Someone upthread said that without rage etc we have 'highly polished cuckoo clocks'. Well, I rather like those, and if the rage we're talking about is as narrow as Joe Strummer raging against his dad being a diplomat, I'd rather have the 'rustproof clockwork' of the Warp label, frankly. They're from oop north, but they don't make that the be all and end all of their work.

*reflects* I guess it's a question of how intentional one is about what one creates. *shrugs* Tom asked a key question -- are the people writing in _The Face_ creating pop music? And...are they? If so, well, perhaps that's an issue that drives them. If not...all I get is an image of somebody tinkering away at her mastering software making sure that she can at least finish up the song to be sent for the initial white-label pressing. There may be issues getting in the way of creativity, but I prefer to think of the bigger issue as being getting something done and available to see what people think. If whatever drives this posited musician I'm talking about is something specifically about race/class/gender/etc., then hey, great. If it impedes her...well, who makes that decision if it does?

Says me, a guy who's not a musician at all. Figures.

In the UK class is a 'structuring difference' in this dialogue, one which is out of proportion to its diminishing role in British society, (like Japan's, tending more and more to flatness)

Because pop music likes a drama, a big bold clearcut one with tons of nostalgia thrown in, we get the mediators (with the tacit approval of the artists and consumers) latching onto, say, Blur v. Oasis, which becomes a major headline on the evening TV news mainly because of class. A fond replay (with actors) of the more real class divisions of the 60s.

I'm not saying that music shouldn't be the vehicle of such dramas. Just: 'Change the record, this one's stuck'. Instead of 'pop music as class battleground', how about 'pop music as research and development department for electronic technology', 'pop music as time machine', 'pop records as flimsy excuse for cutting edge graphic design', 'pop videos as first port of call for aspiring film directors', 'pop lyrics as micro-literature' etc etc. It's surely more interesting and more relevant to see pop as a metaphor for creative endeavour than a metaphor for class.

I object to race/class based dismissals of any music, but not race/class based engagement.

Nick wants to seperate creative endeavor from any aspect of social reality. On the contrary, pop at it's best dives into the thick of such questions.

But OTOH I agree with Nick on the driving force behind the continuing reinvocation of class in British pop (though we're onto something more specific now: Britpop); much of its sustaining myth is based around a nostalgic social setup, an internal set of reference points where the differences between people are exaggerated and intensified in terms that baffle anyone from outside the islands, so you get ancient class dramas being boringly wheeled out against a backdrop of a society which is becoming both flatter (at its "mainstream" base) and more flexible and freer (for those who feel creative / progressive urges). I'd also agree totally that pop is often at its most fascinating as a vehicle for drama and conflict but that there are hundreds of such dramas more interesting and relevant than class. My only point would be that refusal to accept the modern world and continuing to define culture around outmoded structures happens, to some extent, *everywhere*.

But that's not my main point. My main point is that I'm vaguely aware that there exists a 'proper' Reception Theory which gets capital letters, but because I was a scholarship boy and they wouldnt let me have the keys to the posh library / because I am a lazy bastard (delete according to which prism you want to view things through), I have never read about it. Can anyone fill me in here?

(Oh: now I'm *attacking* hacks... Sorry.)

The subjective overlay that is 'class' is what I meant by dramatising/euphemising etc. (I don't agree that class is 'fun' either, I was just throwing out a list of how it might work, except that in the UK class is emphasised and exploited all the time for its comic potential).

And the reason he is attacked more often is because he presents himself as the public face of the company. You don't see the owners of Union Carbide in the press very often, do you?

Americans sometimes, I think, look towards England because the absence of the race divide (in the same way at least) seems attractive, from afar.

All this stuff about Japan and a consensual, settled society is interesting because Britain, in the 50s and 60s, aspired to much the same thing; the ethos of the whole setup was stability and work ethic (cf XTC's "Earn Enough For Us"), and while the old Victorian class structure still prevailed to a great extent, the emphasis was on a common identity and culture; arguably this country has shifted much more towards "classes for themselves" in the last 30 years or so. But much was hidden behind this; I believe strongly that British people feel "freer" than they ever did, and I would rather see "classes for themselves" than everyone in the UK pretending to be the same.

Nick's argument for creativity-out-of-a-stultifying-consensus-of-a- national-dream in Japan reminds me in many ways of that old played- out chestnut that growing up in such a society created the explosion of creativity in British pop music in the 60s. But I'm not sure whether I believe in societies putting on a consensual sheen (as it were), which is one reason why I'm not sure I would necessarily want to live in Japan, or feel it would suit me best (though it nevertheless fascinates me).

The good thing is more and more citizens (one hopes) are becoming aware of the big lie that we're all one big happy middle class, contrary to what Hollywood movies and the Top Ten Countdown would have us believe. I've had to undergo more than one academic "sensitivity training" seminar focussing on problems between the races, but if the word "class" was ever mentioned, the moderators would quickly change the subject. Though I am by all appearances white, I feel closer in some ways to Exhibit A growing up on welfare (well, what's left of it) in a black or Hispanic or Cambodian housing project than to Bill Gates, Oprah Winfrey, or even your typical SUV- driving Lawnboy-riding suburbanite--and a long, long of any race--and a long, long way indeed from our own King George II and his oil empire. Also a long way from any pop stars who might like to think they're "expressing the hurt you feel, man." I grew up on welfare myself, but I guess the major difference is I somehow managed to get an education, albeit I owe my soul (as do so many scholars and artists) to the U. S. Student Loan offices. I guess this is why no matter how much I despise Eminem and pop stars in general I can understand why so many poor white kids latch on to his identification with black urban culture (both the good and the very bad).

In America we get the great majority of our cultural intake from Los Angeles, New York, and (a distant third) London. This is true no matter where you grow up; my contemporaries and I grew up almost completely unaware of my hometown's German and Irish and American Indian heritage, thanks to TV, movies, and rock music. Though Mississippi River water ran through our veins and we once had a Socialist for mayor, silly pop songs and sitcoms buzzed in our heads and motivated our adolescent rebellion or lack thereof. (So maybe mass media is the great equalizer! As long as it's dumb enough.)

So, I don't know if race or class are the most important things that "get in the way of creativity," but I certainly know money is the only thing that buys you the time to create; therein might lie your answer... Sorry to lead this topic even further astray, Master Momus--but there's one last question which I'd love to ask you: What of the Japanese once-despised Ainu population (now less than one hundred individuals, I read the other day), and what of Japan's "untouchable" class? Are they considered "middle class," too, and do they reap its benefits? Do they listen to Lolitapop, watch "Survivor," and eat McSushi? You're the expert, so speak on, oh wise one (I say without a trace of irony).

(and I'm listening to Eve's "Cowboy", and I want to kill myself. Then don't. Then do. Then do/n't.)

Thanks for the kind words again, Robin!

Another day older and deeper in debt...

People in London have a real downer about the sewn-up-ness of things right now because it's pushing up the cost of living faster than some can cope. It's really bad being priced out while feeling that this is the result of secret handshakes, etc. - instead of more basic reasons like having/not having talent or a particular gift for communication. This kind of stress is probably bad for creativity, which is why music and art here seem to be stagnating, or getting transfusions on import, or subsidies from well-off relatives. Fashion: really only do-able now if you can benefit from some kind of nepotism or patronage from New Feudalist system (just ask Stella McCartney). Our brave new multicultural world is still subject to the same old crap about origins and class - I wish I could put these issues to one side and get on with actually creating stuff but the agendas of others trying to profit from creative people or found a new corporate structure based on their labours are dictating these new, unsatisfactory terms. We're actually much closer here to the end of racism in cosmopolitan areas than news reports suggest, but this is being replaced by haves v. have-nots problems. Just ask anyone in Oxford Circus on May Day.

Maybe in Japan music (and related product) is an aspirational means of escape from the conformity inherent in the rest of the society, at least on the surface, done with less fuss because there's less for a large, moneyed middle class with recreational outlets to fuss about. And where one person sees consensus, like Momus, another will see a blinkered conformist bent. However, Japanese people of my acquaintance are just as capable of bitching about trustafarians as anyone else - the Japanese in London for two big exhibits are all annoyed about stinking rich Zen artist (and Bjork ripper-offer) Mariko Mori! And the designer Koji Mizutani, spurred to create by Tokyo student activism of 30 years ago, told me trendy Japanese are too busy shopping for new toys and clothes to be concerned about the inequalities in their own society, never mind anywhere else. But they're no different from those with privilege anywhere that takes Visa.

forthcoming WWF presentation - those people who work for their money vs. those people whose money works for them - im the renegade stakeholda with 'mr pointy' sharpened.

'marx iz good on production but we iz inna consumer age'

Is this a means of suggesting that people in metropolitan areas are more aware of the internet than the rest of us?

I don't believe that's true.

I think it's safe to say that no matter where most of the people posting here actually do live, they inhabit an abstract cosmopolitan space thanks to the wonders of what is now cheap, accessible technology. This should be liberating and creative rather than divisive and didactic. It may also act as a palliative/distraction for conscientious objector types to an outside world in the grip of New Feudalist madness.

Suzy: I agree entirely. I've always objected very strongly to neo- feudalist attempts to "own" the internet, to control a cultural space that should be there for all. I couldn't agree more with your feelings on capitalist dynastic succession and underwriting, and I've always tried to find another way. Quite naturally my greatest anger towards them is when they try to colonise what was born democratic.

I initially suspected Paul was a joke. I fear not, however, though rest assured that I am unconnected if he is. I couldn't imagine (read: wouldn't want to depress myself by imagining) such attitudes, but the internet is bound to surprise us. I'd be far more frustrated by it if it didn't; rather the Pauls of this world than neo-feudal colonisation.

And yes, the forum is 'censored'. It's a private message board. I try to be open about the reasons. Stuff that gets deleted includes: personal abuse not linked to any music-related points, repeat posts when I catch them, posting under other people's e-mail address, racial or homophobic abuse, threats, etc. etc. So for instance you won't see Paul's mutterings about "crushing [Robin's] career" here for much longer.

yadda yadda.....

x0x0

As you may notice, there have been some posts deleted from the end of this thread. 'paul' or whatever you answer to, stop being a cockfarmer on our nice message board. Everyone else, please try not to respond to stuff like this.

(There were a few posts deleted which sort of made points relevant to the whole thread, in an effort to relate the cockfarming back to the topic at hand. I'm sorry to remove those contributions, but thought it was best since so many surrounding posts were removed.)

I wonder how long this is going to be on the thread!

*stands up on soap box*

the story will not be rewritten........................

Momus, what exactly do you mean by 'race' here?

-- Richard Tunnicliffe, Tuesday, 8 May 2001 00:00 (6 years ago)

genuinely good thread

READ THIS

As you may notice, there have been some posts deleted from the end of this thread. 'paul' or whatever you answer to, stop being a cockfarmer on our nice message board. Everyone else, please try not to respond to stuff like this.

(There were a few posts deleted which sort of made points relevant to the whole thread, in an effort to relate the cockfarming back to the topic at hand. I'm sorry to remove those contributions, but thought it was best since so many surrounding posts were removed.)

-- Josh (ILM Moderator), Tuesday, 15 May 2001 00:00 (6 years ago) Bookmark Link

^^^this dude was jokes

The initial post in this thread is ridiculously stupid. Artists explore issues relating to their personal lives and world; race and class happen to be big parts of that.

Would art be better if humans didn't make it?

The point was merely that race and class are over-used as themes or issues in UK music. Japan was not a particularly good comparison but still.

this is a great thread but i think the initial q was pretty dumb

quel surprise