Camper Van Beethoven vs. Gang of Four

I always get "I Love a Man in Uniform" mixed up with Eurhythmics' "Missionary Man".

1 and a bit great GoF albums vs a few good CvB albums makes it GoF imo

Yeah, there's more Camper I want to keep than Go4, but I'd get rid of all the Camper I have before tossing Entertainment! easy.

Yep

Yep here too, but I think I'll vote for CBV, 'cause this isn't the first time I've thought Dave Allen was annoying...

Gang of four

ah, so that's not the google search window?

Go4 anyway...

Go4 no question (for the music and not the circa 2012 theorizing from onetime members)

Lowery = CVB, Cracker
Allen = Go4, Shriekback, Elastic Purejoy, King Swamp, Low Pop Suicide

I realize that's beyond the scope of this poll, but at various points in my life Dave Allen's music has mean WAY more to me than Lowery's ever did or could (I do love "Seven Languages" tho).

Anyway, Go4

Both bands I loved in college (Go4 more) but have little interest in hearing now.

uh to be clear the exchange quoted in the opening post refers to "Low," a Cracker song that still gets played on every U.S. alt-rock station every day

shriekback vs cracker

Both great, but CVB more subjectively important to me bcz I was in on the ground floor of their emergence -- saw their first NY show, bought the debut album in the initial run, etc.

This is a tough one, tbh. I love all three prime Go4 discs, and I love every single CVB disc. The showdown for me, as far as sympathies go, is "Entertainment!" vs. "Key Lime Pie." I love those albums both equally, but for totally different reasons.

uh to be clear the exchange quoted in the opening post refers to "Low," a Cracker song that still gets played on every U.S. alt-rock station every day

― some dude, Monday

Old guy me thinks of Low as a David Bowie album. I guess there are still U.S. alt-rock stations (but not around W. DC)

In 100 years, "Entertainment" will still sound unique.

the correct answer is Shriekback

I stand corrected, good on yer! Long live Shriekback!

Old guy me thinks of Low as a David Bowie album. I guess there are still U.S. alt-rock stations (but not around W. DC)

― curmudgeon, Monday, June 25, 2012 10:39 AM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark

DC101 is one of those stations that plays "Low" every day

the correct answer is Shriekback

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:24

otm.

I honestly don't think we had Cracker in the UK

Cracker's 2 biggest singles apparently peaked higher on the UK pop charts than they did on the Hot 100! but yeah i gather they weren't very big over there generally

vaguely recall 'Low' getting a decent amt of Evening Session airplay whenever it came out

was never much into CVB, i think my brother gave me some of their songs on mixtapes over the years when i was growing up. maybe they are great. "low" is a pretty terrible song. gang of four are terrific.

I have played way more Go4 than I have CVB, and Shriekback is one of my favorite bands ever

CVB without a moments hesitation.

Hang on a minit: My original hypothesis was "more people would recgnise a GO4 song than a Cracker one"

Still, CVB means "Take the Skinheads Bowling" over here, and that's it.

I feel like for a lot of people, if you asked them to name their favorite CVB song they'd think for a minute and then say "... 'Punk Rock Girl'?"

the correct answer is Shriekback

― decrepit but free (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:24

otm.

― mark e, Monday, June 25, 2012 11:28 AM (59 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

+1

CVB were always pretty impressive instrumentally - the whole core of Segel, Lisher, Krummenacher, and Pedersen.

Yep. My answer to the thread question would be CVB and Lowery was pretty peripheral to my love of them.

CVB can't really touch Go4's best songs, but they have way more tracks overall that I enjoy listening to on a regular basis.

voted CVB; not sure why I didn't get Entertainment until last year, maybe it was hard to find on CD in the 90s? I dunno, but in 2011 it didn't make the impression that it might have had I taken Stipe's advice in 1989 & gotten into them then. I liked "Damaged Goods" a lot.

Yeah, there's more Camper I want to keep than Go4, but I'd get rid of all the Camper I have before tossing Entertainment! easy.

― da croupier, Monday, June 25, 2012 12:24 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

not sure why I didn't get Entertainment until last year, maybe it was hard to find on CD in the 90s?

I remember the album being one of those I heard about a lot but just couldn't get anywhere until someone maybe reissued it on CD in the UK in 99 or 2000 because I remember paying an import price for it.

Yeah, to me, this is like "Take The Skinheads Bowling" vs "Damaged Goods" - like, come on, is this even a contest?

(Also, I found myself agreeing with Go4 dude on a lot more points than the other annoying dude.)

henry rollins and rick rubin re-released entertainment on their Infintite Zero label in like 1995 or something

vaguely recall 'Low' getting a decent amt of Evening Session airplay whenever it came out

I remember this too - a long time before I'd ever even heard of Go4 or CVB. In fact I've only ever heard one CVB song as far as I know so Gang of Four win this, I mean I haven't played Entertainment! in years but it's a good record.

Still, CVB means "Take the Skinheads Bowling" over here, and that's it.

― Mark G, Monday, June 25, 2012 8:58 AM (3 hours ago)

You mean now? Surely they were taken seriously in the British press at the time - big write-ups on the Virgin-era albums, their live shows, etc.

"Pictures of Matchstick Men" didn't have any presence in the UK? Seems odd that it wouldn't.

I'll say this as someone that saw them live a fair number of times and followed their records - they were a band with a long streak where they just got better and better. I think the youngest guys in the band were a couple of years older than me and I just always found them to be really impressive and inspiring.

CVB were awesome, and folks who only know them for "Skinheads" or for very subsequent Cracker stuff need to get schooled.

"Pictures of Matchstick Men" didn't have any presence in the UK? Seems odd that it wouldn't.

― Johnny Fever, Monday, 25 June 2012 19:48 (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

forgot all about that - i have it hidden in the archive on one of those mini cd singles.

one of the b-sides, jack ruby, i seem to remember was quite good.

still, nothing in comp to Gof4.

Well, they're very dif. bands, but man, "Jack Ruby" alone is a monster. Though that's not what the band is known for, being galvanizing or whatever. Just like Go4 could never have written "Sweethearts," which is (like some of "Key Lime Pie") as political as Go4 but a lot more subtle.

(Sorry, CVB has long been one of my all-time favorite bands in a way that Go4 never was, as much as I eat, sleep and breathe those first three albums)

no need to apologise josh .. your passion is going to make me add CVB to my list of bargain bin lookoouts.

never heard anything beyond the mark-n-lard assisted hit and the cd single.

"Seven Languages" is my favorite CVB track, and probably somewhere in my list of favorite tracks from the 80s by anybody.

Are the Mekons somehow perhaps the midpoint between these two bands?

Anyway, a stab at organizing some very off-the-cuff thoughts:

The lost late eighties college rock interzone

For example:

That '80s Show is an American sitcom that aired from January through May 2002...The show was set in 1984 and revolved around the lives of a group of friends living in San Diego, California.

how's life otm that whimsy is wrong. False whimsy, maybe.

― EZ Snappin

It was their musicality that transcended that word, even from the first album. And every album after that was a bit of a progression farther away.

― timellison

Whimsical is the last word I would use to describe CVB.

― Josh in Chicago

Playfully quaint or fanciful, esp. in an appealing and amusing way.

No, that's totally fair.

I don't hear "Skinheads" as whimsical. It's so brilliant, I hesitate to label it anything, but if I had to, I'd veer more towards surreal or Dada or just one long non sequitur.

Def a lot of dada at work. Satire. Sarcasm. Some irony. A tad subversive.

how is it satire?

Well, it makes fun of punks, it makes fun of hippies, it recasts the story of Joseph Smith as a prog-epic, it turns Sonic Youth into a country hoedown ...

See: "We Saw Jerry's Daughter," ""We're a Bad Trip," "Club Med Sucks," a funny spoof of suburban rage hardcore:

I don't have to go to school for an entire week
I just wanna go down to Newport Beach
Mom and Dad wanna tell me where to go
They wanna go to Club Med San Carlos

Club Med sucks
Authority sucks
I hate golf
I don't wanna play lacrosse

The people there, they are so stupid
They exploit the poor and the weak
I want no part of their death culture
I just wanna go to the beach

Then there's the Black Flag cover, which they amend with the "I was so gnarly and I drove my dad's car."

Anyway, that's early CVB. They morph into something a lot more poetic and beautiful pretty quickly. By the time we get to "Key Lime Pie," the lyrics are pretty incredible. "Sweethearts" alone ...

i thought you meant just Skinheads

Oh, no! Ha. "Skinheads" is definitely one of their Dada trips.

plus whimsical

Lowery's "300 Songs" blog seems to be on some sort of enforced hiatus, but you can find a cache of his "Skinheads" tale here:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0H5hLJGB2jYJ:www.davidlowerymusic.com/300songsblog.cfm%3Ffeature%3D1650209%26postid%3D1106686+hits+black+swans+skinehads+bowling&hl=en&client=safari&gl=us&prmd=imvns&strip=1

Trying to dig up the essay titled " Skinhead Stomp and other CVB Ska Songs. Why We Weren't Killed by Skinheads in Chico 1985. Henry Rollins Issues Fatwa Against CVB":

We regarded Take The Skinheads Bowling as just a weird non-sensical song. The lyrics were purposely structured so that it would be devoid of meaning. Each subsequent line would undermine any sort of meaning established by the last line. It was the early 80′s and all our peers were writing songs that were full of meaning. It was our way of rebelling. BTW this is the most important fact about this song. We wanted the words to lack any coherent meaning. There is no story or deeper insight that I can give you about this song.

There's something really weird about his take on Thriller and hit-machining, like a less convincing Malcolm Gladwell.

"To use Michael Jackson as an example again off the wall had pretty much the same inputs as Thriller. Yet the results were wildly dfferent. 2 million vs 100 million. Or in gross revenue terms 16 million versus 800 million. You could plausibly argue with a straight face that $16 million dollars of Thriller was due to skill and $784 million dollars was the result of luck. I know this is an oversimplification but it still illustrates my point that most of the profit in the music business is not due to skill, talent or expertise."

^ 80s indie guy is suspicious of popular success, nation mourns

I wouldn't want to blame CvB for grunge, but they were doing pretty kick-ass Led Zep in concert, and covering Sonic Youth, way early. I love their records, especially the 2nd two, but it has to be noted that they presented heavier in concert than on record.

As I think about it, the group that kind of reminds me of CbV the most was the Ophelias. They weren't anywhere near as good, though their best handful of songs is pretty great, but they were roping all kinds of disparate and pretty far-out influences into a semi-coherent whole that generally fit into 80's college radio, and couldn't fit anywhere after the 80's. I guess there was some slight crossover between the two bands...

And yeah, crossover guy ended up in Counting Crows, so there you go...

Rap really stands alone in not being nostalgic for any previous era. There are occasions on particular tracks that dabble in past sounds, but there definitely aren't any new groups living the part.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:36 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

lol wut

Johnny, really?

...the group that kind of reminds me of CbV the most was the Ophelias.

otm! i've been thinking a lot about the ophelias lately, one of several bands that vanished down the hole created by the collapse of rough trade. should really track down their albums. have had "love is teasing" stuck in my head forever, though i don't think i've heard it this side of 1990.

Ophelias guy handled vox and mandolin in the Monks of Doom with everybody but Lowery, so there you go.

Other CVB-ish bands include the Donner Party (with Sam Coomes; album in Pitch-A Tent) and I want to say ... State of Utah? The band that covered "A Love Supreme" as "I Love Ice Cream?"

For what it's worth, Lowery has always cited the band Kaleidoscope (the '60s psych-folk act featuring David Lindley) as a major influence.

Oh yes, Donner Party indeed! I guess they at least live on a tiny bit thanks to New Pornographers covering When I Was A Baby in concert. Proof of Utah is the other one.

Right, Proof of Utah! Thanks!

One thing I shouldn't do is post about music I haven't listened to in 30 years. I was listening to Vivien Goldman's Launderette EP on the way home tonight, something Marcus had on '81 Pazz & Jop ballot. It's the kind of record I likely would have shelved quickly when it came out--with few exceptions, I liked stuff that fell within certain notions I had about what made for good pop or punk or anything music. Short version: accessible structure + melody. A simplification, and it's not like I've changed drastically over the years, but at least in terms of post-punk, I came to like a lot of things I wouldn't have liked then. The Vivien Goldman sounded really good. And I started thinking about this thread, and how I'm not sure what I'd think about Entertainment! today. Next logical step is to take it out and find out. I will, eventually. I'm lazy and slow.

Oh yes, Donner Party indeed! I guess they at least live on a tiny bit thanks to New Pornographers covering When I Was A Baby in concert. Proof of Utah is the other one.

― dlp9001, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 6:16 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

another somewhat CVB-esque "lost" band, albeit one that came along a few years later on: ed's redeeming qualities. the breeders covered their "driving on 9" on last splash. i once saw them (ed's, not the breeders) play a ballet studio to an audience of perhaps 20 extremely earnest mid-teenage indie nerd kids. everyone sat cross-legged on the floor. was weird, but nice.

also: CVB contemporaries christmas (some of whom would later go on to become combustible edison?)

spot 1019 (on pitch-a-tent even)

Didn't Christmas features James McNew?

yeah, but only on their third album (which initially went unreleased, or so allmusic tells me - i still haven't heard it)

Rap really stands alone in not being nostalgic for any previous era. There are occasions on particular tracks that dabble in past sounds, but there definitely aren't any new groups living the part.

― Johnny Fever, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 1:36 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

lol wut

― some dude, Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:48 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Johnny, really?

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 27, 2012 7:54 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Point me at 'em, then!

There are occasions on particular tracks that dabble in past sounds

By this, I don't mean using old familiar/unfamiliar samples. I mean someone copping the style of Stetsasonic or Tribe the same way Interpol copped The Chameleons.

ok but this was one of the most popular rap albums of last year

http://edge-img.datpiff.com/mc8fbab3/Big_KRIT_Return_Of_4eva-front-large.jpg

Josh In Chicago wrote: "As a huge Mekons stan, too, I can totally see them as a midpoint between Go4 (who went to school with Mekons and were famously mistakenly pictured on the back of the first Mekons LP) and CVB. They're political but rarely strident, and also really funny, but they also explore roots and folk music (thanks in no small part to Lu Edmonds)."

The Gang Of Four picture was no "mistake!" And of course, the Mekons exploration of roots and folk started long before Lu's involvement with the band . . . as awesome as he is.

Yeah, but they only started getting global-sounding post Lu and his oud. Before there was surely folk and stuff, and later country, but I want to say it didn't start to get really eclectic (in the CVB sense) til "So Good It Hurts," maybe.

Johnny i'm not gonna bludgeon you with evidence but please trust that rap is possibly MORE nostalgic and obsessed with its own past and canon than other genres

xposting the rap digression, there is definitely an overlap of sorts between shambling early Mekons through "Fear and Whiskey" and CVB, though.

Also the chords in the 'break' at the end of every verse in "Where were you"

...

are the same chords as the chorus of "Take the Skinheads Bowling" !

Ha.

trust that rap is possibly MORE nostalgic and obsessed with its own past and canon than other genres

kind of wish indie rockers would make albums named "Daydream Nation II" and through in a loop of "summer babe" on random tracks

i think some band from Vermont is going to get that idea next year and get a Best New Music for it

Return to Daydream Nation

hardcore band double negative had an album called daydream nation a couple years back. pretty good. the one before that was called the wonderful and frightening world of double negative.

Plus, they were from Vermont!*

*likely not true

I am very late to this, but if there were ever a textbook definition of "apples and oranges" I would say a poll on Camper Van Beethoven vs. Gang of Four would be it. Is this anything like the circumstances that led to Alien vs. Predator? Can somebody explain how this happened to get started? Anyone want to do Gene Vincent vs. Tim Buckley? The Plastic People of the Universe vs. KC & The Sunshine Band? Mungo and Jerry vs. The Waitresses?

It was because Dave Allen from Gang of Four wrote a rebuttal to David Lowery's piece on the music industry and file sharing.

Thanks for the instant answer!

Dave Allen and David Lowery squaring off re: Byrne and Spotify...

http://north.com/thinking/david-byrne-spotify-stance/

Camper van Beethoven vs Gang of Four indeed!