Failure

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In a couple of threads recently Kate (sorry to single you out Kate but it got me thinking) has said that genres or movements have "failed", in particular Riot Grrrl and Grunge. Now Riot Grrl presented itself as a movement which would or could change things so it might be possible for that to 'fail' (whether is has is open to debate). But Grunge is a broader thing entirely.

Can a genre be said to "fail"? If so how? And which have succeeded?

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 23 September 2002 08:49 (twenty-three years ago)

in an important sense, Meatl have established their own genre

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 08:52 (twenty-three years ago)

surely the pint of grunge was to sell records and make some money?

― jel -- (jel), Monday, 23 September 2002 09:02 (twenty-three years ago)

I was semi-kidding about the grunge failure thing. Someone made a comment about how no one still debates whether or not grunge succeeded or failed or sold out or what. So I shot my mouth off on the Nirvana thread to proove a point.

Any musical movement which claims to have a purpose in mind are sure to fail. Because the course of pop music is like a blind elephant.

I will qualify this statement when I've had some more coffee and calmed down. I'm still smarting over a WILDLY inaccurate review on Drowned In Sound. I can handle bad reviews. I can't stomach LAZY and INACCURATE journalism.

― kate, Monday, 23 September 2002 09:51 (twenty-three years ago)

''Someone made a comment about how no one still debates whether or not grunge succeeded or failed or sold out or what.''

it was no one debates whether K. Cobain sold out of not (though you may think grunge=K. cobain, ehich i don't) and i just said that i have seen a discussion and even an article in thezine perfect sound forever that discusses this (titled KC: hero or zero).

I thought when kate said it that yes, it was a joke but that she meant abt changing the world.

but its a point: does music change the world or just the world view of the person holding x CD?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 23 September 2002 09:59 (twenty-three years ago)

"Kate, now the Lollies bassoonist, was kicked out of Meatl after just one gig"

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 10:00 (twenty-three years ago)

FUCK AWF, I was never in Meatl. That was Kate St.John!

I don't think grunge ever intended to change the world. It was an offshoot of hardcore, mixed with metal. It was about stomping off and forming their own little camp outside the world. And then the world decided it was GOOD.

Grunge Boutiques in Macy's were an unfortunate side-effect of grunge, not, I think, an end which grunge had in mind when it was conceived. Riot Grrl would have LOVED to have seen Riot Grrl boutiques in Macy's, or the culture-changing metaphorical equivalent thereof (erradication of Macy's and its model-centric fashion economy entirely, perhaps?) Hence the difference.

Julio: does music change the world or just the world view of the person holding x CD?

Both. Culture is changed both on the one-person level, and the mass level. Enough people making the choice of holding the CD, and it has become weighted with the heft of culture.

I am babbling at this point. Need to go jog or something to get out the anger.

― kate, Monday, 23 September 2002 10:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Whoa. That review is pretty damn terrible.

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Monday, 23 September 2002 10:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course a genre can fail: If it doesn't meet its goals. I think the Riot Grrrl scene was too ambitious, secular, its musical influences contradicted its manifest,... All those things contributed in its *downfall* but then I don't equate its downfall with it being unimportant.
(Hmm my English is also failing at the moment.)

― nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:20 (twenty-three years ago)

"secular"? this is a totally kewl thing to say except i don't know what you mean nath...

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Bands tend to use genres to launch themselves & then go off & do their own thing...or latch onto the next scene( e.g. Depeche Mode & Spandau Ballet were originally both New Romantic). Looking it another way, they're bound to fail as scenes, by their very nature, have to be transient in a sort of on the ball & somewhat elitist kind of way.

― Jez (Jez), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:28 (twenty-three years ago)

A genre can only be said to fail if aims are set out to do something other than make fantastic music (if this is the aim, then it's purely subjective.) Hard to see how all artists within a scene or genre would all have the same aims, though, so it would be hard to dismiss a whole genre as having "failed" (I mean, I'm sure many riot grrrl acts would still have claims for artistic triumphs made for them).

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:29 (twenty-three years ago)

hahahahahaha I meant INSULAR, Mark

― nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 23 September 2002 11:32 (twenty-three years ago)

I suppose a genre would be said to fail if it finished without producing any noteworthy artists. Mind, that's all subjective. Nu-metal is doomed to fail in my mind.

― Sasha Gabba Hey!, Monday, 23 September 2002 11:50 (twenty-three years ago)

House "succeeded", right? People will never stop wanting to have fun.

The idea of grunge failing reminds me of Gina Arnold, she who said, "We won" when Nirvana hit #1 in the pop charts ("we" being the underground '80s punk people, I guess.)

― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:04 (twenty-three years ago)

I think a genre can only fail what it expresses a specific goal to begin with (which I don't remember "grunge" ever really doing). While one could argue (as I believe Kate did above) that "Grunge" was basically an offshoot of Punk Rock (which *DID* have a goal/purpose), I seem to remember "Grunge" to be more associated with apathy/"slackerism"/self-involvement. That said, how could something that is inherently socially inert accomplish (let alone "fail at") anything?

I don't think "Grunge" as a genre/sub-culture really expected/wanted to be discovered to begin with, and was completley caught off guard when it was. It was never really a movement (i.e. it didn't go anywhere, nor did intend to).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Punk failed (hell, where's that revolution?)
Metal failed (the world still exists, humanity is still here)
Christian music failed (churches are emptier than ever)
The shoegazers succeeded (or at least, we have a thorough understanding of our footwear now)
Of course the hippies failed spectacularly
Prog failed (the classical and rock world have not united)
Goth failed (there's still joy and laugher in this world, and suicide is not a popular career choice)

Hiphop succeeded (they're driving Bentleys allright, and drive-by's are still popular)
Pop succeeded (it's still popular)
Electronic dance music succeeded (everybody's still dancing)

― Siegbran Hetteson (eofor), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Nu-metal is doomed to fail in my mind.
Well it succeeded in the charts.

― nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:50 (twenty-three years ago)

FUCK AWF, I was never in Meatl. That was Kate St.John!

No, you're thinking of The Meltohs.

― Mr Swygart (mrswygart), Monday, 23 September 2002 12:57 (twenty-three years ago)

'Failure' as cultural assimilation vs 'Success' as cultural influence?

*runs away - chased by mark s armed with stick*

(Isn't it difficult to tell the difference sometimes?)

― Ray M (rdmanston), Monday, 23 September 2002 13:04 (twenty-three years ago)

we're back at pat boone ray

― mark s (mark s), Monday, 23 September 2002 13:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Try not to let it smart Kate, its not just a bad review but a poorly written one. Im sure you may have lost what few RHCP fans you already had but not much to be done.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 23 September 2002 13:34 (twenty-three years ago)

nath, situation (b) does not invalidate internal semi-certainty (a)
;-)

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 23 September 2002 14:08 (twenty-three years ago)

And I thought this was going to be a thread about Skinny wot dun that song with the Tony Bennett sample an' that.

― Marcello Carlin, Monday, 23 September 2002 14:09 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought it was gonna be Kings Of Convenience, meself. You're gonna get those trousers changed...

― Mr Swygart (mrswygart), Monday, 23 September 2002 14:40 (twenty-three years ago)

four years pass...

Can it?

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 12:01 (eighteen years ago)

I want more genre NAMES to fail e.g. bl*gh*use

― blueski, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 12:07 (eighteen years ago)

http://slumberland.org/d23/images/vs28-failure.jpg

― Geir Hongro, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 12:19 (eighteen years ago)

one year passes...

http://www.twistedsun.net/files/page3_blog_entry521_1.jpg

― billstevejim, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 04:42 (seventeen years ago)

ive still got real love for that skinny song (and album)

― NI, Wednesday, 16 July 2008 11:13 (seventeen years ago)

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