Bruce Springsteen's "Born to Run" v.s. Lana Del Rey's "Born to Die" (the albums not the songs)

deist mountain dew

I have a friend who thinks Lana del Rey is awesome and I was surprised by how much it makes me think "I was wrong about my friend, he has terrible taste not good taste, as evidenced by he likes Lana del Rey"

^^^

1st 4 songs of born 2 die are awesome fuiud

fuck me then & do it all night long because every note of that music I've heard sucks ass

LDR easily and only half her album is any good

I'll never understand the visceral hatred of her stuff, at her worst she's just dull and a bit cringe, so many worse out there

actually that's what makes her so annoying! her music is just bad. not "this is the worst music I ever heard" bad. not epochal awful. just run of the mill shitty music with a good enough team behind her that she gets herself out there enough that people'll bite - it's kind of the same press strategy as the "Teach the Controversy!" one creationists use: just put a crappy idea in front of enough people and a significant number of them will actually buy into it. The worse ones who're out there don't get the coveted SNL slot before they've demonstrated any talent at all to anyone; that's just sort of offensive. It's not the actual music that inspires the hatred - it's the cynicism necessary to make it available in the first place - who, after all, gives a shit about her music? Clearly noone.

it kind of interests me how idea-driven the music world is now. like, if you devote your entire album and/or career to one idea, or even half an idea, people just lose their shit over it.

it kind of interests me how idea-driven the music world is now. like, if you devote your entire album and/or career to one idea, or even half an idea, people just lose their shit over it.

soooo otm & hard to deal with from an artist's side I gotta say. Like, Aerosmith could assert an easy-to-describe-in-a-sentence concept as a framing device to an album and literally triple our press. However, as is known, we traffic in subtle concepts & take some pride in that, so the ideas that go into our records are usually kind of hard to sum up in less than a paragraph, which costs us. The one time we made an album whose concept could be repeated in one sentence it was the most successful album of our career easy. If this felt like it was actually about the idea rather than its ease of transmission it'd be cooler to me but what it's really about is giving the people who increase buzz a way of doing so without having to burn too many keystrokes

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Aerosmith_Pump.jpg

bingo

Can people just say anything now?

they can certainly poll anything, as we've seen

It's not the actual music that inspires the hatred - it's the cynicism necessary to make it available in the first place - who, after all, gives a shit about her music? Clearly noone.

was this ironic? dontcha think ?_?

it kind of interests me how idea-driven the music world is now. like, if you devote your entire album and/or career to one idea, or even half an idea, people just lose their shit over it.

the era of the high-concept pop star or rock band.

it kind of interests me how idea-driven the music world is now. like, if you devote your entire album and/or career to one idea, or even half an idea, people just lose their shit over it.

or even just say loudly and often you have an idea or a concept regardless of whether your music is substantively different to non-conceptual peers.

we covered this on some other thread when rtc, probably, called rick ross the rap lana del rey, which i agreed with (taking it to mean that they present very idealised personae ready for hero worship that their actual music can't quite sustain). and this feeds into the way major artists nowadays aren't just marketed as musicians but as lifestyle brands - being a fan means buying into a tribe, buying into a whole set of values that their music reinforces. (or, they tap into pre-existing sets of values eg indie r&b.) of course all of this has always been part & parcel of pop star stuff but it seems to be more explicit than ever now. cf the unceasing trend of fanbases/stanbases naming themselves (or being given names? not sure which way round it usually works) - rihanna's navy, gaga's monsters, the bey hive, cher lloyd's brats &c &c &c

as for LDR there are 4-5 songs on the album where she pulls what she's going for off and they're pretty special imo, so those alone salvage the project. i actually find her half-idea pretty interesting and with a lot of potential but on the album it seems kinda half-finished and it's the kind of thing where if it doesn't 100% convince you to suspend your disbelief it's pretty embarrassing

There are at least three Springsteen albums better than BTR and there at least 15,000 artists better than LDR.

write in vote
http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/8f67b42007b39ec88fdc61ac65d0aa34/97639.jpg

i am not super crazy about born to run the album but it is much better than ldr's album

Born to Run although I quite like some of the LDR album.
Slightly bothered by all this anti-ideas talk but don't think I'm really up to arguing about it.

Think these are quite interesting albums to compare though, beyond just having similar-sounding titles. Both of them foreground these really stylized/idealized images of America and American culture, and music-wise they both love going for that sweeping, dramatic sound.

Outside the streets on fire in a real death waltz
Between flesh and what's fantasy and the poets down here
Don't write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be
And in the quick of the night they reach for their moment
And try to make an honest stand but they wind up wounded, not even dead
VIDEO GAAAAAMES

Both of them foreground these really stylized/idealized images of America and American culture, and music-wise they both love going for that sweeping, dramatic sound.

Driving with the top down in New Jersey and driving on the sunset strip.

hollywood sadcore vs. wildwood caddycore

I have a friend who thinks Lana del Rey is awesome and I was surprised by how much it makes me think "I was wrong about my friend, he has terrible taste not good taste, as evidenced by he likes Lana del Rey"

― perry en concrète (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, July 14, 2012 3:56 PM (Yesterday)

I feel the same way about the absence of the phrase "the fact that" in your post.

anyway, while LDR has a couple decent songs, bruce wins this for the title track alone. that song is fucking ridiculous.

Outside the streets on fire in a real death waltz
Between flesh and what's fantasy and the poets down here
Don't write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be
And in the quick of the night they reach for their moment
And try to make an honest stand but they wind up wounded, not even dead
VIDEO GAAAAAMES

― some dude, Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:10 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this made me lol for a while

anyway what is with ppl fronting on BTR here, (i may be a stan but) that album is fantastic top to bottom. the fact that backstreets and she's the one are in the bottom half in terms of quality is telling!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpDIfcmQb3Q

like goddamn

it kind of interests me how idea-driven the music world is now. like, if you devote your entire album and/or career to one idea, or even half an idea, people just lose their shit over it.

― some dude, Saturday, July 14, 2012 4:54 PM (Yesterday)

Think these are quite interesting albums to compare though, beyond just having similar-sounding titles. Both of them foreground these really stylized/idealized images of America and American culture, and music-wise they both love going for that sweeping, dramatic sound.

― Not The Other One (Mr Andy M), Sunday, July 15, 2012 9:29 AM (2 hours ago)

some dude's right in general, but i quibble with the emphasis placed on "now". these are both high-concept albums, and bruce springsteen's symbolic packaging has never been much more complex than lana del rey's (think born in the USA). that's not a criticism of either. a lot of my favorite artists are rather high-concept: the stooges = rock as dionysian chaos, the VU = urban art-decadence, public enemy = revolution in the streets.

^ Yeah, I'm prob stating the obvious here but a lot of the strength of rock & pop lyrics (and the way those lyrics are packaged/marketed) has always been found in the form of big, broad brush-stroke images. It's not always about complexity and ideas that stand up to continual analysis, it can often be about big, striking images or simple metaphors that capture the imaginations of lots of people and really nail the presentation of certain places, groups etc.

Outside the streets on fire in a real death waltz
Between flesh and what's fantasy and the poets down here
Don't write nothing at all, they just stand back and let it all be
And in the quick of the night they reach for their moment
And try to make an honest stand but they wind up wounded, not even dead
VIDEO GAAAAAMES

A+

jeeeez louise you guys really will discuss anything won't you. the answer is Bruce, can I go now.

I feel the same way about the absence of the phrase "the fact that" in your post.

lol I reflexively remove "the fact that" from any sentence in which it might threaten to make an appearance, due to it's a garbage phrase

no it is awesome! it is like the curved section of a road. seemingly less efficient than a right-angle elbow bend, but so nice to just lie back and bank through.

you can almost always replace "due to the fact that" with "because"

p sure it was Strunk & White who instilled horror of it in me...yes:

In especial the expression the fact that should be revised out of every sentence in which it occurs.

owing to the fact that since (because)
in spite of the fact that though (although)
call your attention to the fact that remind you (notify you)
I was unaware of the fact that I was unaware that (did not know)
the fact that he had not succeeded his failure
the fact that I had arrived my arrival

I would guess that Strunk & White wouldn't fare well on ilx - we did have one small thread on it an age ago. And admittedly my affection for it stems from some writer whose name is now lost to me opining somewhere that you couldn't really be a good writer unless you loved Strunk & White, and me being 12 and wanting nothing more than to be a writer & having a Catholic constitution and therefore thinking "yes I will follow your instruction if the door to the kingdom will be opened to me"

sorry, that was a chart whose formatting didn't survive the copy & paste - should be easy enough to figure out though I'd guess

i always secretly wanted to be catholic, which i think explains my fondness for prescriptivism.

(cooler iconography, sexier guilt, better music)

,as evidenced by he likes Lana del Rey

Would've gone for 'him liking' tbh.

am now eagerly awaiting LDR's Nebraska; thx thread!

also, anyone who recommends Strunk & White to you is your enemy

"his affection for" xp

^ happy medium

the massive boner he has for

I am fond of strunk/white also

Strunk & White has a lot of terrible advice. If you wanna write weird, follow that book to a T.

if you want to write weird [and piss off people who read language log]

'clockwork angels' surely should have been an option here

lol I haven't heard of language log* so I looked it up & then searched Strunk & White and then lol'd

http://arnoldzwicky.s3.amazonaws.com/Strunk&WhiteDick.jpg

*I read exactly two literature things on the internet, University of Rochester's "Open Letter" and Words w/o Borders so I don't know about any of what's probably the big stuff

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Geoffrey K. Pullum is cool.

Born to Run vs. Gaga's Born This Way would have been better. Both feature Clarence Clemons!

jesus fucking christ what were you thinking?

Lana Del Ray.

The only stuff I've heard of hers, apart from VG, obv. is that first album.

I think it's really good. How does it compare against "born today" brummie accent. ?

and there's my second flag post of the thread

fine, whatever.

no platform for lana del rey fans

people who don't like strunk and white are people who think the rules in strunk and white are supposed to be followed. maybe the book has a tonal problem or something. anyway "the fact that" is an utterly, utterly hideous phrase. i like lana del rey.

followed as opposed to like considered and kept in mind, i mean.

"as evidenced by he likes Lana del Rey" is a pretty hideous phrase too, could've used some kind of change whether it was 'the fact that' or something else entirely

i thought it was funny but i am not going to bat for anything specific here except 1) the unacceptability of the fact that and 2) lana del rey

i use "the fact that" a fair amount but i hate myself for it every time

self-flagellation is the most important tool in revising imo

"as evidenced by he likes Lana del Rey" is a pretty hideous phrase too

had thought that its attempt at being kind of funny while also avoiding "the fact that" would have been glaringly obvious but there's some bad-medical-charting humor in it for me also that for sure isn't gonna come across for most people

people who don't like strunk and white are people who think the rules in strunk and white are supposed to be followed. maybe the book has a tonal problem or something. anyway "the fact that" is an utterly, utterly hideous phrase. i like lana del rey.

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Monday, July 16, 2012 11:42 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the problem descriptivist nerds have is that everyone else thinks the rules are supposed to be followed (and also maybe that this silly weird style guide became the standard above all other silly weird style guides and who knows why)

like maybe it's white's popularity as a writer but then you open up one of his books and he breaks all his own rules by the second page

and he breaks all his own rules by the second page

could be a clue

i mean i am not a prescriptivist, obv do whatever you want, people who don't know that are operating at a level too low to really worry about their influence on world literature. if someone's only gonna read one thing bitching about bad style i'd probably give them that orwell essay before s&w, but what s&w taught me when i was 12 or whatever was mostly just vigilance. i'm sure there are lots of other pamphlets that teach the same thing but as you say this is the one that's always lying around, so whatever.

OMIT NEEDLESS WHATEVERS

omit, well, needless shit

http://mentholmountains.blogspot.com/2011/11/new-worst-move-in-journalism-phoney.html

the problem descriptivist nerds face is that there are class and cultural connotations to writing and language, and what they see as a perfectly appropriate construction can sound stupid and uneducated to people in power.

oh sure but the warnings in s&w aren't really warnings against sounding stupid and uneducated. people in power write like shit.

if we want to talk about like the incorporation of vernacular i think that's kind of different? even tho it involves breaking s&w-style rules. but not necessarily their spirit.

this is a very weird thread

"The fact that" often added to sentences in which there aren't any facts at all, which is only the second or third most loathsome thing about it.

I just used it yesterday but it followed the word "attributable" - "attributable to the fact that..." I figured it was OK. It was indeed an actual fact!

attributable to the fact that this is a very weird thread

hack politicians overusing it and "the fact is that" have killed both.

hack politicians

omit needless words

the dude running for mayor last week, interviewed by local NPR, said, "The fact is that we have too much debt, thanks to the fact that Mayor Carlos Gimenez is still in office."

people who don't like strunk and white are people who think the rules in strunk and white are supposed to be followed

wtf as if it's a fun book to read or something. Is The Elements of Style a novel?

the problem descriptivist nerds face is that there are class and cultural connotations to writing and language, and what they see as a perfectly appropriate construction can sound stupid and uneducated to people in power

Are you gonna whip out "signifier" next? Everyone knows this, including the people who speak "bad English." A prescriptivist's sense of English grammar is practically folklore.

folkloric, I should say

Good novels are their own Elements of Style though.

i find it fun to read but ymmv obviously; what i meant tho was that it teaches people who are starting to think about writing as more than a thoughtless chore a bunch of "rules" that clearly clearly aren't universally applicable (i don't remember if the book acts like they are but i hope it does because figuring out yourself that they aren't is part of the lesson) but which help get you thinking about prose carefully, in terms of the meaning (or emptiness) of words, their weight and balance. it's easier to teach attentiveness and vigilance with a bookful of sample rules than it is to just say "be attentive and vigilant!" also i mean i know "learn the rules to break them" is a cliche but welp. you can tell which "kinda"s and "sort of"s dfw didn't think carefully about deploying; they're the bad ones.

guys, are we really arguing that Strunk & White have little to teach us? Every minute we discuss this we ignore discussion of the Del Rey song that mentions video games.

i thought we'd settled that, she's gross cuz of her high-concept single-line elevator pitch which is apparently too obvious for anyone to actually spell out

"girl likes money" i guess

lol

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

I feel old

The line between the fancy and the plain,
between the atrocious and the felicitous,
is sometimes alarmingly fine.
The opening phrase of the Gettysburg address
is close to the line, at least by our standards today,
and Mr. Lincoln, knowingly or unknowingly,
was flirting with disaster when he wrote
"Four score and seven years ago,
VIDEO GAAAAAMES."

Are you gonna whip out "signifier" next?

― bamcquern, Monday, July 16, 2012 3:30 PM

Signifier, signifier, signifier, I'm whipping it out, for you, bryce! For you! For you! It's all for you!

i mean i am not a prescriptivist, obv do whatever you want, people who don't know that are operating at a level too low to really worry about their influence on world literature. if someone's only gonna read one thing bitching about bad style i'd probably give them that orwell essay before s&w, but what s&w taught me when i was 12 or whatever was mostly just vigilance. i'm sure there are lots of other pamphlets that teach the same thing but as you say this is the one that's always lying around, so whatever.

― a hauntingly unemployed american (difficult listening hour), Monday, July 16, 2012 5:43 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

we don't disagree. i don't think most linguists have any issue with the existence of style guides, but they have a problem with the way they're treated by english teachers/majors (replace 'style' w/'objectively correct' and 'guide' w/'rulebook'). and it's so prevalent that i can't blame a guy like pullum writing seething point-by-point arguments against white's weird proclivities, if only to show all the living people how bizarre it is to treat them as holy. video gaaaames

this thread really is all things to all people, huh. video gaaaaaames

A prescriptivist's sense of English grammar is practically folklore.

Folklore is cool. I don't disagree w/you btw.

This thread is ridiculous. Why not throw in "Ready to Die" and "Born This Way"?

and the AP Style Guide

This thread is amazing; can't front

Haters gonna hate

http://sites.duke.edu/writing20_34_s2012/files/2012/02/url.jpg

is that an upper lip?

he donated most of it to lana del rey

lol