Someone school me in Herbie Hancock, please.

Not a jazz guy at all, but watching DEATH WISH a couple nights ago I was loving the score. Does he normally sound this weird/funky/synthy? What are the best recordings to check out in this vein? Should I just get the soundtrack and move on? Does HEADHUNTERS sound anything like this? Feel free to recommend full albums or post clips of standout songs.

Ah shit, this was meant for ILM. Mods?

Done.

Danke.

I don't remember the Death Wish soundtrack, but Headhunters is awesome and funky.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQsSQRWMhOs

Sextant has lots of weird synth stuff but is a little spacier and more abstract (especially on the first track "Rain Dance"). Both are pretty great. Only one I've heard after that period is Thrust, which is a bit more straightforward but still good.

I'd be grateful for schooling in his pre-funky period, personally!

Mwandishi was (I think?) his highest placing album on the jazz albums poll. It's dope - the beginning of his mutant synth funk phase. Thrust and Man-Child also in the same vein more or less.

Pre-funky period: check out Maiden Voyage.

hmm I was wrong, Sextant beat out Mwandishi in the poll. Here's all the Herbie albums that placed in the top 100 (several of which I haven't heard)

91 Herbie Hancock - Empyrean Isles (1964) 890 Points, 11 votes
75 Herbie Hancock - Takin' Off (1962) 976 Points, 8 votes
54 Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage (1965) 1200 Points, 12 votes
29 Herbie Hancock - Crossings (1971) 1898 Points, 14 votes One #1
12 Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters (1973) 2716 Points, 20 votes
10 Herbie Hancock - Mwandishi (1970) 2774 Points, 20 votes, One #1
8 Herbie Hancock - Sextant (1973) 2859 Points, 19 vote One #1

Here's what you need to know: Herbie Hancock didn't start playing electric keyboards until Miles Davis (his employer at the time) plopped him down in front of one in the studio one day. Herbie was called to a session, walked in literally asking, "Where's the piano?" Miles pointed him to the Fender Rhodes in the corner and everything changed.

So. From his own catalog, you need the three Mwandishi albums: Mwandishi, Crossings and Sextant. Amazing, mind-Brillo-ing electro space funk with one side-long ambient-jazz-weirdness jam per album. Mwandishi was hands down the most brilliant music he ever made, but the records didn't sell, so he formed the Headhunters, who made a few albums you need to hear: Head Hunters, Thrust, Man-Child (on which they added guitar) and the live, Japanese-only Flood (which also features some acoustic piano stuff at the beginning).

That's pretty much all you need, I think. He went disco later, made some proto-hip-hop records with Bill Laswell, returned to acoustic playing, blah blah blah. But for five or six years there, he was a fucking god.

(Note: There are several awesome albums by members of Mwandishi, including Bennie Maupin, Buster Williams, Eddie Henderson and Julian Priester that you're probably gonna want to check out, too.)

There's a book on Mwandishi being published later this year that I can't wait to read.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0c38Wtdvz0

as a child of the 80's, I'm just going to say that when shuffle brings up tracks from Future Shock & Sound-System, the textures and the riffs are pretty impressive. & the Fairlight samples on the latter border on proto-Public Enemy territory, even if only for a few seconds at a time; it doesn't sustain, but I am positive Hank Shocklee was listening

Grandmixer DST's 1983 12" Megamix cutting between the Headhunters & the Laswell productions shows off all that material really well. I remember hearing this on KSOL before it came out, assumed it was a radio-only mix done by a local DJ, and my mind was utterly blown when I walked into a store and saw that Columbia had actually pressed this THING

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dtQVKgoe-c

Two interesting (I think) things about Mike Clark's drumming with headhunters:

1) His concept (although maybe others developed it simultaneously) was to apply contemporary jazz drumming a la Tony Williams to funk, so that the drummer could be constantly improvising and shifting instead of just in the pocket, while still being funky

2) His style is sometimes called "linear funk" (although he disavows the term) because he tends to rarely hit more than one drum surface at the same time

Anyway, if you like the tense funky tenseness of the Death Wish soundtrack, you might like this track:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spnjTzuVBO0&feature=related

(and the whole record is great)

i am similarly not great w/hancock - can someone tell me where this record fits into his career/style/w/e? it is prob my fav thing i've heard by him but i feel like i have some vague idea that it wasn't totally his thing in some respect, or was an anomaly of sorts:

http://www.recordsale.de/cdpix/v/various_artists_inc._herbie_hancock-hear_o_israel.jpg

been hugely into him again lately. the one time in HS when i had access to a bass clarinet my first order of business was figuring out how to play those parts in "hidden shadows" and "ostinato (suite for angela)"

helpful youtube commenter on hidden shadows points out that the best way to count it is
123456 12345 1234 1234

Mr Hands

mike clerk = serious beat science (and i like that he looks like an accountant)

got this recently:

http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-371179-1328724114.jpeg

Bass – Buster Williams
Bass Clarinet – Jerome Richardson, Romeo Penque (tracks: B1, B3)
Drums – Albert "Tootie" Heath*
Flugelhorn – Johnny Coles
Flute – Hubert Laws, Jerome Richardson (tracks: B1, B3)
Liner Notes – Herb Wong
Piano, Electric Piano – Herbie Hancock
Producer – Duke Pearson
Recorded By (Recording By) – Rudy Van Gelder
Tenor Saxophone, Flute (Alto) – Joe Henderson
Trombone – Garnett Brown
Trombone (Bass) – Jack Jeffers (tracks: B1, B3), Tony Studd

pretty dense, lots of color. worth picking up imo

one of the best shows i saw in college was mike clark's band with fred wesley, paul jackson, bill summers, and larry goldings.

gotta post 'palm grease': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY9rhaYkud0

bill summers is the secret hero of that record, and whatever engineer decided to mix the bells twice as loud as everything else.

necessary viewing for a diploma from Herbie Hancock University
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puM38Xgz38w

matt what is that? img isn't loading for me

Mwandishi rec upthread OTM. These are my favorite Hancock records beside the early Blue Notes. I still play the hell out of my Warners (?) Mwandishi compilation. I also love Eddie Henderson's "Inside Out".

oh, sorry, it's The Prisoner.

vocodery/synthy/funky/brassy/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q25nUY3iEE

Hey you guys know what's kinda cool? That Freddie Hubbard/Herbie Hancock/etc. In Concert Vol. 2 LP with two back-to-back versions of Hornets.

^^^

from his acoustic years, Maiden Voyage is classic hard bop stretching toward the abstract. Takin' Off is funky soul jazz w/Dexter Gordon blowing and Speak Like A Child is lovely, contemplative. The Prisoner, mentioned above, has interesting horn arrangements kind of a path not taken

Will be very interested to read the mwandishi book. Love the music.

There have been several live sets from that era upped to torrent sites over the years which have been very good Aarhus and Detroit come to mind. not sure if they're significantly better than other sets but they are pretty great.

There was a French TV recording of the band in '72 that still exists and occasionally gets upped to torrent sites then gets banned because its commercially available in some form from the French TV station. It may be on tradersden at the moment.
Pretty good stuff I think it's 2 10minute= tracks and a 7 minute one, but titles escape me.

There was a Wire article on the band possibly 10 years ago mainly about the electronic/synth input on Sextant but I think it was pretty elucidating.
Bits of Sextant sounded very prescient when I first heard them after hearing techno and other late 80s/early 90s electronic dance music.
But Mwandishi was more about freedom, I think the linernotes to a couple of the individual Mwandishi cds make comparison to Sun Ra.

Headhunters is also good as were the band when they split from Hancock for Survival Of the Fittest.

I bought a 3cd box set of 3 HAncock cds from Fopp a few years ago that was Sextant, Headhunters and Thrust. Was pretty cheap at the time which might possibly reflect it going out of print, not sure about that though.

i'm not really sure what to say about all this except sextant and mwandishi as is the especially overlooked crossings are crucial if you're at all into abstract music, electronic music, noise music, space music, krautrock, etc it's just this huge bubbling brew of electronics and plangent walls of jello synth and shimmying neon electrified instruments and weird percussion bouncing around off the walls

i also have this box set

http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-1387247-1215273858.jpeg

which will still be classy and hip and listenable when you are 95 years old

xp: I found a copy of Crossings a while back and I was thrilled until I took out the vinyl and it was completely thrashed. They wanted $15 for it.

Thanks for the Maiden Voyage recommendations dudes. We have that at work, will check it out!

I'm quite fond of the Donald Byrd record 'Royal Flush' which features Hancock in one of his first appearances on a Blue Note record, It's mostly standard Bop in the main but really enjoyable. The last track is written by HH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmfEbgoovQ8

you can get mwandishi and crossings on two CD w fat albert rotunda which is slight but funky, probably as funky as headhunters but not as freaky sounding because it's basic soul jazz acoustic instruments ... and you know about headhunters

that's kinda where my engagement w/ top billing herbie hancock albums ends but of course he shows up on electric miles sessions and so on

sunlight is a good disco-funk album but he doesn't shine at that the way he shines at jazz

um, i recall liking future2future very briefly but i haven't listened to it since and i have a feeling it hasn't dated well

there's an obscure ron carter / herbie hancock / tony williams album called third plane that mixes a weirdly simmering quiet storm late 70s vibe with a steely visionary keith jarrett hyperactive mind vibe, i like it but it might be an acquired taste

this monster from 1974 (!) is probably the most visionary thing he ever did but the rest of the album is not good and of course though it sounds like techno the idea that anybody made a techno record because they heard this is crazy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-agFRc6SsNs

practically everything on blue note w/ herbie playing pre-1965 is worth it

oh yeah the israel thing is good but aside from some widescreen soundstage moments in the vein of david axelrod or gil evans or vince guaraldi etc (which makes sense, trunk does a lot of soundtrack and library music reissues) it's actually pretty straightforward late bop, sometimes sounds more exotic or modal because of more atypical brass instruments (french horns, flugelhorns, but i think it's surprisingly traditional (still excellent)

as a child of the 80's, I'm just going to say that when shuffle brings up tracks from /Future Shock/ & /Sound-System/, the textures and the riffs are pretty impressive. & the Fairlight samples on the latter border on proto-Public Enemy territory, even if only for a few seconds at a time; it doesn't sustain, but I am positive Hank Shocklee was listening

Grandmixer DST's 1983 12" Megamix cutting between the Headhunters & the Laswell productions shows off all that material really well. I remember hearing this on KSOL before it came out, assumed it was a radio-only mix done by a local DJ, and my mind was utterly blown when I walked into a store and saw that Columbia had actually pressed this THING



Funny. I own Headhunters, the 3 Mwandishi records, and Death Wish. Oh yeah, and Future Shock. Recently bought Fat Albert Rotunda, but haven't given it quality spins yet. I guess I don't have much to add here and don't seem to be missing anything crucial.

Sextant is such a mindfuck. Love that stuff.

The trio of 80s electro albums aren't crucial if you're only into jazz, but if you like electronic/dance music they're all quite good, each of them taking a bit different approach to electro. (Future Shock is more hip-hop, Sound-System is more world beat, Perfect Machine is all over the place with some of techno, funk, and moody chill-out stuff included.)

Also, if you like his funkier stuff, I wouldn't stop at Man-Child, because the later 70s albums all have gems in them, even if they're not as perfect as the 1970-75 stuff. Secrets features hypnotic synth riffs and great guitar playing by Wah-Wah Watson, and Sunlight has some breezy vocoder disco-jazz. Mr. Hands is also very much worth acquiring if you don't hate early 80s synth sounds, as it has some impressive textures and keyboard improv by Herbie, and it also includes two incredibly funky stompers: "Just Around the Corner" and "Shiftless Shuffle", the latter one being a reunion of the original headhunters band.

Basically, the only Herbie albums between 1970 and 1988 I wouldn't recommend to anyone except hardcore fans are the disco and boogie records he made in the late 70s/early 80s: Feets Don't Fail Me Now, Monster, Lite Me Up, and Magic Windows. They all have some decent dancefloor numbers, but nothing essential.

Yeah I love Secrets

Not for a newbie, but don't miss out on his non-Miles sideman work. He is on a bunch of CTI records in the 70s, and some Blue Notes in the 60s, among other things. I've been buying these for years solely based on the presence of his name on the cover, and I've rarely been let down.

i haven't heard much of this, but this japan-only live double LP from '75 is a monster

http://joolz.fr/blog/images/Riri/flood.jpg

Is that a Klarwein or just under the influence?

The trio of 80s electro albums aren't crucial if you're only into jazz, but if you like electronic/dance music they're all quite good, each of them taking a bit different approach to electro. (Future Shock is more hip-hop, Sound-System is more world beat, Perfect Machine is all over the place with some of techno, funk, and moody chill-out stuff included.)

Also, if you like his funkier stuff, I wouldn't stop at Man-Child, because the later 70s albums all have gems in them, even if they're not as perfect as the 1970-75 stuff. Secrets features hypnotic synth riffs and great guitar playing by Wah-Wah Watson, and Sunlight has some breezy vocoder disco-jazz. Mr. Hands is also very much worth acquiring if you don't hate early 80s synth sounds, as it has some impressive textures and keyboard improv by Herbie, and it also includes two incredibly funky stompers: "Just Around the Corner" and "Shiftless Shuffle", the latter one being a reunion of the original headhunters band.

Basically, the only Herbie albums between 1970 and 1988 I wouldn't recommend to anyone except hardcore fans are the disco and boogie records he made in the late 70s/early 80s: Feets Don't Fail Me Now, Monster, Lite Me Up, and Magic Windows. They all have some decent dancefloor numbers, but nothing essential.

A bit more discussion on these records here: When Herbie Hancock Went Disco

The vocoder duet would be better if it all of it was sang through the vocoder, but on the chorus it's just their regular voices... And Herbie's really bland as a singer (not surprisingly, Lite Me Up is the only album where you can hear him sing without a vocoder), though "Give It All Your Heart" does have a cool extended electric piano solo. But I prefer the songs on that album where the other guy (can't remember is name) sings, he has a nice, smooth, Luther Vandrossy voice. The title tune especially has a good, energetic boogie vibe.

i hear what everyone is saying is saying about the post-headhunters albums but i feel like even w/ the good stuff you quickly get down to only one or two dope jams per album and a lot of filler and that in any case filler track or not, it's the same one-note idea over and over again

like thrust, manchild, vsop, sunlight, future shock, sound-system, perfect machine can be boiled down to two tracks whereas "head hunters" is solid jams

perfect machine -> title track and "chemical residue" and everything in between i'm itching to skip / ignore

anyone heard this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedication_(Herbie_Hancock_album)
super rare to find physically, but i just saw that amazon mp3 has it for the bargain price of 5.99. half is acoustic piano the other half ARP/Rhondes/Synth jams.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/Dedication_%28Herbie_Hancock_album%29.jpg

yeah there was a youtube of nobu upthread

I was gonna mention Dedication in my earlier post, but couldn't remember the title and couldn't be bothered to look it up. Some interesting stuff on there.

Another interesting Herbie rarity is this one. Basically it's a Japanese singer called Kimiko Kasai (not familiar with her) singing tunes (mostly) by Herbie, backed by Herbie and his late 70s band. Pretty dope and mellow stuff, though sadly this one too has only been released in Japan.

early intimations of the simulacra (cgi, hip hop w/ infinite layers of scare quotes, bill laswell) that would dominate his behind-the-times 80s material

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=926645

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=656889

now maybe we start to get into different sorts of pop art anxiety

always paring back

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1192168

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=881360

aware of the limitations of expression and reproduction

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1515742

anxiousness about reproduction

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1773897

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=2733952

and the usual fears about aging starting to peek through

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1022889

this reminds me of end-of-life fingerpainting in the hospice

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=819465

steampunk jazz?

http://www.discogs.com/viewimages?release=1057669

anyway just cause he's herbie hancock doesn't mean he's not a baby boomer w/ all the typical 80s anxieties

the vast majority of that stuff is destroy but there's probably a track or two worth hearing on each

Yeah I don't agree with that at all.

that's cause you're naive

*applauds*

i mean if i knew all those records i'd probably wanna stab u right now but as it stands i am delighted & persuaded

The Twilight Clone off Magic Windows is fabulous. Adrian Belew on guitar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kegKobRkz8M

lol, i was really just kidding about the spiritual freedom thing, i just thought the pic of herbie on the beach with his rhodes was super groovy.

I disgustedly explained that he's "one of the most popular and important jazz musicians of the last 50 years and a hip hop pioneer.". Then I went back to playing Morbid Angel.

dying at this

I just came across this. It's fantastic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6QsusDS_8A

I've decided to wallow in Hancock's Blue Note albums for a week or so.

I am shamefully ignorant of pretty much everything he did post-Jack Johnson, "Rockit" aside. But damn, his playing on the live Miles stuff gives Jaki Byard a run for his money. No mean feat.

crossings crossings crossings!!! makes me wish that "space jazz" had become more of a phenomenon.

Ooh, I just got "The Complete Mwandishi Recordings" in the mail on Friday!

If you mean Mwandishi: The Complete Warner Bros. Recordings, you still need to get Sextant, the final Mwandishi album, which was released on Columbia. (It's amazing and totally worth it - their spaciest, proggiest album.)

Sextant is SO great, definitely one of my all-time favorites. I played "Rain Dance" for some Flying Lotus fans the other night. I don't think they liked it very much.

i first heard sextant through opn when he included it in a list of influential albums. i didn't take to it immediately but after a gestation period i realized it's fucking brilliant.

If you mean Mwandishi: The Complete Warner Bros. Recordings, you still need to get Sextant, the final Mwandishi album, which was released on Columbia. (It's amazing and totally worth it - their spaciest, proggiest album.)

That's the one I meant, yeah. And yes, Sextant is amazing. So much stuff happening in that music - I like Head Hunters OK Sextant is the REAL shit.

(should be a "but" in that non-sentence.)

Fans of Crossings and Sextant should check out Julian Priester's Love, Love if you haven't done so already. Leon Chancler and Dr. Patrick Gleeson are on it-- very much of a piece with the Mwandishi band's sound.

Yeah, that's a great album. Also, Eddie Henderson's first two albums, Realization and Inside Out, are Mwandishi albums in all but name. The whole band plays on 'em, and they're produced by Gleeson, but they're credited to Henderson. They were on Capricorn; I think they've been reissued as a two-CD set.

Herbie in the machine:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/809aa9394dc80871f69ddac53ebc24b3/tumblr_msvoxp4ugS1qct1iko1_1280.jpg

For anyone who hasn't already seen this, it's pretty wonderful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPFXC3q1tTg

Eddie Henderson's first two albums, Realization and Inside Out

I've been listening to these in the car recently ... it hadn't registered that the band = Mwandishi, no wonder they sound so good

The whole band plays on 'em, and they're produced by Gleeson, but they're credited to Henderson.

Not the whole band: Julian Priester, the Mwandishi trombonist, is missing from those Henderson albums. I actually think the sound of the band suffers a bit from this, there's less muscle at the low end. They're still nice albums though.

And speaking of Julian Priester, his album Love, Love on ECM is also recommended for Mwandishi fans, it has a very similar spacey/ambient sound (with Pat Gleeson on synths) as those Herbie and Eddie Henderson albums, with only two extended jams. I think Bennie Maupin too released a solo album on ECM around the same time, with Herbie and couple of other Mwandishi members, but I haven't heard that one.

Maupin and Gleeson also did a duet album back in 1998 (with Maupin playing on top Gleeson's electronic beats), which they call a continuation of the Mwandishi sound in the liner notes. It's a bit cheesy and dated (there's even a drum'n'bass track on it), but if you like both techno and jazz, it's certainly worth a listen.

The Bennie Maupin album is The Jewel In The Lotus; it's got Maupin, Herbie, Buster Williams and Billy Hart (no Gleeson, no Priester). It was reissued on CD in 2007 with vastly un-improved cover art.

Original:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hl4Ru9oysrg/SKBbHljJa5I/AAAAAAAAAfw/hxH_EkUVgkc/s1600-h/Bennie+Maupin+Lotus+FRONT.jpg

Reissue:

http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-1309846-1286900510.jpeg

Well, shit.

It's good but not especially Mwandishi-sounding to my memory.

Man, now I've gotta buy that Eddie Henderson reissue too (too easy to just download it)

it sounds so weird listening to that band (minus priester) playing other music. sextant is like frozen in internal stasis in funk fusion heaven for me. but there they are on the first cut on 'realization', practically aping an opening passage from 'sextant'.

Nice that these guys all played on each other records so that we could all have more music to collect in the future!

It was thoughtful of them I concur.

Mwandishi will be reuniting this Friday night at 8:30 PM EST for a one-off performance at the Apollo Theater. It'll be broadcast live on WWOZ.org.

I got the Miles Davis box and Hancock's playing is on such an elevated level there that I'm exploring stuff where he plays piano -- I know the funk years pretty well and enjoy them but never went deep on the earlier stuff -- Maiden Voyage hitting the spot

in that case, empyrean isles should be prime what was the last 'classic album' you got and were knocked out by? material if you get to it.

but also yes, absolutely: maiden voyage is totally classic.

Speak Like a Child is great too, really all the early Herbie acoustic records. And he appears as a sideman on so many classics around this period.

Listening to Pablo Held's podcast has turned up a lot of stories from people who played with Herbie (he's a huge disciple), the dominant theme seems to be that Herbie is unfailingly in the moment. Like if a bandmember asked him twice in 10 minutes what the chords he's playing on given tune are, they would get different answers.

Empyrean Isles and Maiden Voyage are the two uber classics, but I would shout out Inventions and Dimensions, where he plays piano with Paul Chambers and a kind of Latin rhythm section. It's pretty unique and I love it.

yeah, herbie's name anywhere on a blue note album was an instant purchase at one point in time. also interesting because some of it overlaps into his initial time with miles.

the deeper I dig on him the more blown away I am by his piano work. ensemble playing is always about finding your spot in the action, ok, but the way he does it is always so fresh -- light flashbulbs going off -- these stabs on "Kryptonite" from Schizophrenia, they're so perfect, they're not soloing and they're not chords carrying the tune, they're playing in in a way that's so inspired and inspiring...man.

youtube.com/watch?v=7GSVK-PyghI&themeRefresh=1&theme=dark

I can't believe almost every one of his contemporaries is dead, a few are still alive but well into retirement, and Herbie's still out there groovin his ass off. I saw him a couple of years ago and if I'm not mistaken I think he was the first real jazz legend I'd ever seen in concert, and sadly will probably be the only one. Not to take anything away from all of the amazing musicians in their prime right now (I saw Shabaka earlier this year in fact) but I think it's safe to say jazz will never again have anywhere near the primacy it did between 1940 and 1980

If I had more money earlier (or at least family members who actually went to see shows, never mind jazz), I definitely would've gone to jazz shows much sooner, and I can't tell you how much I regret missing so many giants that I knew were playing but could only read about in the paper.

FWIW, Ron Carter still plays all the time around NYC.

sonny rollins is still kicking, and herbie played on a couple of his 60s albums

Unfortunately Rollins is retired due to pulmonary fibrosis. (I'm not even sure he can play the saxophone anymore, let alone for the entirety of a whole set.) Apparently he still creates music, primarily on keyboards - not sure if there are any plans to release anything though.

yeah there is also a 10-ish year age difference between the two of them

I've been lucky to see Herbie twice at Newport Jazz - the last time, he was hopping around with his keytar! Also saw Ron Carter a couple of times, John McLaughlin and Charles McPherson as well. But I got into this stuff way too late to see most of the greats, still their music is eternal.

FWIW, I get today's jazz artists don't possess the same cultural cachet as those in the past, but I'd argue that there's just as many great jazz players who are definitely pushing the envelope with just as much great music - they're just not widely known because jazz and pop have grown further and further apart. I'm tempted to say it's not unlike what you'll see in cinema where the greatest films are simply not being made by Hollywood studios and haven't been for ages save for very far exceptions.

*few exceptions