Is Bob Marley the Muhammad Ali of pop?

Using my family as a role model -- yeah, that works, everyone in the family owns _Legend_ except for me, and I've got the _Songs of Freedom_ box set. But that's just one example...

I think you might be right. (Other possibilities though: ABBA (probably not as wide an appeal as BM), Beatles (probably wider appeal - my family own no pop CDs pretty much. Except for the Beatles.)).

But I just wanted to record my amazement on realising that I do not know - in the old-fashioned offline 'know' sense, sorry netkidz - a single Bob Marley fan. Tim H perhaps??

I don't know anyone who has a record by Bob Marley, which is strange because -as I wrote in some reggae thread- he is goddamn everywhere in Amsterdam. Every coffeeshop by law must have picture of his Bobness and has a music quota of at least 6 hours Bob Marley a day, otherwise you lose your license to sell dope. ;) I hate Bob Marley, probably through over-exposure. Search: occasional good song, say 'Could You be Loved', early stuff is supposed to be really good. Destroy: No Woman No Cry. The most irritating song ever.

I think Bob was commodified, during his brief career as 'pop' star, then lionized after his death. He's a distant relation to the US royal family - Elvis, Marylin and kids (James Dean and Disney, polar opposites), but unlike Ali, he only had a brief role in his simplification. His musical legacy is pretty slight, even though it's obscured by the myth and popularity. Bob's become the focus, more than the music, and now they add up to a lazy cultural tag. A cliche that's been simmering on the edge of ironic re-appraisal, held back by the remixes that took him seriously, but as The Beach told us when they used Redemption Song in place of a service he's probably gone beyond self-parody. Not even a 'spin' doctor could save him from canonization.

ali was the greatest. bob marley wasn't. he's more like the smiling grill-shill george foreman of pop. which is to say, still pretty cool, but not very.

What's "grill-shill"?

(I always felt sorry for Foreman, presented by the ultra-eloquent Ali as pretty much the Enemy-Within of the Whole Race Black: seemed a tad unfair, given it was just so much swagger-baggage before a paid-for punch-up between two African Americans...)

grill(n)-device on which to cook food

shill(n)-one who poses as a satisfied customer in order to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle

which is okay with me, at least it's not mufflers anymore. did you know (fun fact alert) that he named all his kids 'george'? that's awesome.

Foreman has said he hated Ali so much because of all those comments that when he finally got in the ring with Ali, Foreman was doing crazy things like turning his knuckles out a certain way, cuz he really wanted to kill him. He was just pounding Ali in that fight, and Ali kept on taunting him, and not even punching back. Foreman was so blind with rage that he couldn't pace himself, and he famously wore himself out and got kayoed. Ali was just a master psychologist, and if you ask Foreman now he says Ali was the greatest man (not fighter) to ever step in the ring. Bob Marley is just a poster on someone else's wall.

I knew that about Foreman's kids. He has about 7 of 'em too. He said on Oprah this one time that he just calls them by numbers. Numbers! How fantastic is that?

Anyhow, I'm not really a big fan of Marley. If it comes on, it comes on, I don't smash the radio or anything, but I own no CDs and have no interest in buying any. I only know two Marley fans, which is my brain damaged cousin and my drunk friend Jackie. Which isn't meant to be a blight on Marley's fans, even though it soudns like it cos I just describe them like psychopaths :)

I do think that Tom's right that the Beatles are closer to the Ali of pop because even people I know with almost no CDs have Beatles CDs. Even my dad, who can't stand them.

Hm...my dad doesn't have any Beatles (and neither does my mom...or my sister, I think!). And I'm about to sell all mine back outside of a disc or two. We're anti-demographic there, I guess.

For more on that Foreman-Ali fight (the one in Africa) see the documentary "When They Were Kings". It's good and the soundtrack isn't too bad if I recall. Sorry about off the topic-ness.

But what do the Beatles mean in Africa? That's what I'm wondering. I believe Marley is still big there, even beyond the North.

I'd like to suggest that many obsessive music fans dislike Marley because he is loved by "frat boys" (god, I hate that term) and dope-smoking hippies. In other words, "Pop Elitists" don't mind sharing obsessions with the masses, as long as it is the right mass. Marley is obvious, but not in the manner of current chart pop, which makes him boring to people. I guess its probably the overexposre, too, but that doesn't turn people off from Abba and The Carpenters.

Come on, don't tell me you aren't moved when you hear "Slave Driver."

i like marley alright. awhile back, i was going to do a classic or dud on him because i don't think his name ever popped up once either on ilm or nylpm. for a figure so revered by critics and regular folk alike, i found that strange.

my theory is that he's like the jamaican joni mitchell: a few people on here will admit to liking him, but most won't and i bet that has a lot to do with his lion- and canonization, and yeah probably due to how he's loved by frat boys and -- here we go again -- "people with 12 cds."

when i was in college, the one thing everyone seemed to have was a copy of legend, from the dylan-ites across the hall to the hippies down the hall to my hip-hop head roommate from staten island. he deserves some sort of honorary degree from for his work.

That would seem to be implied by the term "elitist" yes. I like some groups of people better than others, just as I like some individuals better than others.

Hypocritically I say: I would like it a lot more if people on this forum talked about why *they* liked things and stopped trying to second-guess other posters, particularly as they never name names.

Overexposure can dull or heighten an initial reaction but it can't cause it - after all we all presumably expose ourselves to some of our favourite music on a far more regular basis than we could ever hear anything accidentally.

The only Marley songs I know are the famous ones, and they seem to have that deadly mid-paced earnestness I'm so familiar with from the likes of Weller or Bono, only transposed to a different genre. Marley's religiosity seems to me entirely on a par with Bono's, for instance. But I'm quite willing to believe that there are a lot better records by him than the hits.

Regarding your last point, Mark, you are rather assuming a universality of reaction, aren't you? I can't even recall the song in the slightest, which may say much about how the lyrics may indeed be moving but the song itself is so unmemorable that there's not much to say about it. In which case, am I going to be moved or bored by the performance as a whole?

As for the larger question -- I can't speak for all, but I think you're confusing disliking canonization and elitist exclusivity regarding certain acts ("The Beatles are the greatest and everyone must acknowledge that, the end." "But wait..." "No, the end. Go away." "All right, fuck you then.") with out-and-out rejection of same acts. The one does not directly result in the other.

I'm not familiar with everything Marley ever recorded, but I love what I've heard, particularly the Catch A Fire album. The Wailers' earlier recordings with Lee Perry are supposed to be awesome, and I'd love to hear them.

Incidentally, the big Marley turn-offs don't apply here 'cause frat boys aren't a big factor (french-language universities in Quebec don't even have fraternities), and the 12-CDs crowd hasn't gotten round to him yet - too busy with Bryan Adams and Joe Dassin.

I think Mark might have a point about Marley vs the Beatles in third-world countries. My african co-workers, who otherwise don't seem all that interested in pop music, all seem to love Marley.

I don't think it's 'mid-paced earnestness' that makes us suspicious of Weller or Bono, Tom, I think it's the fact that they're not convincing in their respective poses as lead singers. Bono and Paul Weller both sound really affected at times, as if despite their seriousness, you can sense that they're not the fanatics they would have you think they are, and that when they step off stage, they'll have a cup of tea and watch the Simpsons with the rest of us. If there's anything about Bob Marley that I ever identified with, it was the fact that I don't think he ever pretended to have anything he couldn't turn off. He was just a storyteller who sometimes had a message to impart, sometimes not, but he didn't pretend to be tapping into some sort of secret energy. He just had a cool voice and smoked lots of weed.

As for the question itself, everyone at my school has a copy of Legend. Everybody. It might well have been a requirement for admittance - "SAT score of X, GPA of X, and listens to Bob Marley". At least in North America, the Beatles do not seem to have nearly as much of a foothold.

Bob Marley's early stuff with Lee Perry -- just about the greatest pop music ever made. No kidding.

Bob Marley's later 'Legend' stuff -- tiresome, righteous and unbelievably over-rated.

Beatles in Africa: the Bhundu Boys certainly acknowledged them as an influence. But Zimbabwe was still Rhodesia when they were kids, and Smith's UDI was when? 1965? 1967? Most other Brit colonies in Africa had shaken off the Oppressive Heel of the Empire before 'Love Me Do', I think. But guitar-combo pop is big enough in Easter Africa to make me wonder (Tanzania and Kenya had local-tradition style restrictions centrally imposed in the years I was keeping up best with this stuff: so the influence if there would not have been admitted to. Uganda was in its time of trial.)

Marley in Africa: massive, reasons obvious. In West Africa esp., many many "reggae" groups and stars, in Francophone territories more even than Anglophone: eg Alpha Blondy. In Zim, Thomas Mapfumo made explicit — explicitly political — homage.

Other outlanders big in eg Ghana/Nigeria: James Brown, Michael Jackson, Gentlemen Jim Reeves

I think our new thread should be second-guess everyone else's tastes. The game will be you create a list of posters, the first ten that pop into your mind, and you describe them and their tastes (refraining from insulting as best as possible) - sort of a non-pictorial AICON. Unfortunately, I wasted my one thread of the day on a "useless discussion", so I cannot pose such a question. Alas. It'd be a much helpful thread, since it really is quite the pasttime.

I'll have Solinger and Mark know that I am not someone who doesn't rate Marley because I'm an elitist. I know no Marley fans besides the two people I listed, including the frat boys I know. I didn't even really realize there WAS a frat boy connection with Marley. Perhaps if I had lived in a dorm I would've seen it. My experience is completely different from the one that seems to make you guys imply that those who aren't rating him highly are being elitists. I understand that this isn't a universal damnation but rather a generalization but it's not one I like - what if I decided now to say all Marley fans are pothead frat boys trying to class slum but aren't hard enough for rap? It wouldn't be true and for god's sake I wouldn't have even thought it really if you lot hadn't said it.

It's just not my thing. Simple as that. Most reggae stylings aren't. I like music that thrashes. Reggae is a little too...I don't know, mellow for me to really love.

Y'all are absolutely right. This second-guessing of ILM posters' tastes has gotten boring, and I have been guilty of it. I think I was just trying to get into the desire to dismiss things based on who else likes a certain kind of music, and what that means. But that's another thread (a dull one, probably.) Anyway, carry on.

Oh, I don't think it's gotten boring. It results in interesting freak outs from certain people ;)

i like the 'talkin' blues' compilation - but noy the stoner interviews, the missus has only ever heard 'legend' i found out recently.i love how coool people who are usually into hybrids slag chris blackwell for bringing in slide guitars and fuzzwah to the mix - my mate pete says marley was the death of reggae coz he did it all, like jimi with the guitar - i disagree but i like the cut of his jib.peter tosh on ol' grey whistle test - THE greatest guitar playing ive eva heard/seen

Bob Marley may be messianic like Bono, but he's a hell of a lot less bombastic about it and the music's more down-to-earth (and, uh, better).

Bob Marley is not the Muhammad Ali of pop. Muhammad Ali did that perfectly well all by himself, with the songs tacked onto the end of his "comedy" album. That said, I resisted Marley for the longest time because all of the stoners I knew loved him, and I found nothing interesting about those stoners. When I learned to dissociate the two, I found that I actually liked Marley quite a bit, especially Natty Dread and Survival. I guess I'm guilty of being one of the people that prefers Marley's version of Catch a Fire to the one that Blackwell played with, but that version is also ace. Speaking of Lee Perry, I think it's interesting to see the similarities between Perry and Marley in the early days, and even more interesting to see the respective directions both artists took.

I've only ever known one person who was a Marley fan, and he had a bit of a thing about earnest singer-songwriters, a category you can certainly fit Bob into with only a modicum of shoving. So, in answer to your question: I don't think he has the wildest appeal of any pop artist. A wider range of people must like the Beatles, or even Abba.

As for myself, I don't actively dislike his stuff but it's also never held much interest. I don't own any of his records and I can't see myself ever doing so.

If I had one artist to listen to for the rest of my life, it would be Bob Marley. I'm always in the mood for his music and I have little doubt that I could turn most people on to him given a little time and the right albums. His appeal is that broad. He works on so many different levels that even people who don't listen to music very critically (like my parents) often like it. I think Bob is the greatest pop artist in history. There is little doubt that he is the most popular in all the world.

I fucking hate Bob Marley. Earnest, bland, high-fibre, moribund WHOLEWHEAT music. Always struck me as the token black artist in an otherwise white music collection, sitting comfortably next to Clapton and Phil Collins in the IKEA CD rack. That's probably a complete generalisation, maybe even an insult to the man and his legion of fans. But I still think it's true. Awful, sentimental bilge. "No Woman No Cry" my arse.

taking cheap jabs at people with ikea stuff is so 'fight club'.

Dave -- You're only thinking of white music fans (and a certain type at that.) Marley is loved in plenty of places that have never heard of Clapton & Collins.

This message board should definitely be more like Fight Club. I want my apartment to be like Fight Club next weekend. Life should be more like Fight Club.

I don't even like Fight Club. I just like to say the words "Fight Club".

But you can't talk about it, which would make conversation a bit difficult.

Who needs conversation when you can fight?

Come on then, take your best shot, you pansy!

You don't start a fight saying comedy things like that, cockfarmer.

OK then...your mother is the spitting image of Ann Widdecombe:

http://www.electannwiddecombe.com/

That was below the belt, DG.

Hey, no rules remember? Apart from not talking about it.

But now we're talking about it. Our Fight Club is the worst Fight Club ever, jesus.

i think the movie was worse.

The worst perhaps, but it's *our* Fight Club.

Or as Bob himself might put it:

We don't need no more trouble/We don't need no more trouble/We don't need no more trouble/We don't need no more trouble

What we need is love/to guide and protect us all/for love to come down from above/to help the weaker grow strong now

We don't need no more trouble...

I'm so proud of our Fight Club for coming to terms with our differences about whether we should talk about Fight Club. Group hug anyone?

Guilty revision - Natty Dread / Catch a Fire. There's more than Bob behind these records.

I think the reason so many music fans don't rate Bob is that they have only heard the expurgated version. When Bob signed to Island records in the early seventies the lable did a hatchet job on his music, adding hand claps, rock guitars - anything to make the music accessible to a mainstream white audience. Bob tolerated this in order to spread Rastafari as wide as possible (or perhaps he just wanted fame and fortune, probably a bit of both)but his music suffered immeasurably. Its true that the best stuff he ever did was with Lee Perry - vocals to the fore, backed by sparse, heavy rythms, its amazing music. The records I recommend are:- African Herbsman (Trojan) Complete Wailers Chapter 2 (JAD) (3Cd) These records were however, nowhere near Perry's best. If Bob was the global figurehead of reggae (having virtually no influence on the music after the aforementioned recordings) then Scratch was it's nucleus, manning the controls from the engine room - the reverred Black Ark studio. Possibly the best record producer who ever lived, Scratch's reputation hasn't been helped by his current guise as an icon of craziness. His Black Ark output was amazing - intense, sticky, drawing you into a spiritual vortex, hypnotized by the dark currents converging in to one as snatches of vocals leap at you and then disappear like calling cards from the other side. But there's light there too, like a ray of sunshine poking through the diluvial clouds, and a spaciousness that interacts perfectly with the dense, opressive beats, like ying and yang. I know I sound a bit overzealous but if you listen to this music I think you'll see why. Records I recommend are:- Lee "Scratch" Perry - Arkology, The Congos - Heart of the Congos (one of the best albums ever made, any genre), Scratch and the Upsetters - Super Ape As for Marley's wide appeal (sorry, got a bit side tracked there!) what I do know is that if you visit black homes throughout the world you will see pictures of him on the wall- he is a huge icon of black power- but how many black people listen to his music these days is a moot point.

have you read Lloyd Bradley's 'Bass Culture' book too then? I was just about to post the same thing - Marley as cultural icon, with the music being irrelevent after about 1973. He's definitely the reggae artist that non-reggae fans like.

Bass Culture - great book, although doesn't cover much dancehall or ragga. David Katz's 'People Funny Boy' biography of Lee Perry also has stuff about Marley

First: Fight Club was an amazing movie, but then, I dig that sort of social commentary, and am socialist, so i guess that pretty well explains that. Second: Bob Marley is amazing, I don't care what the song is, I haven't found a bad one yet. A few months ago I wouldn't have been saying that, but i've found that i've quickly gotten really into music that makes me feel something, and I get a lot of emotion from Bob's music, mainly the vocal melodies and lyrics. I'm not sure how he compares with the beatles influence-wise. Its hard to say, the beatles got so much bigger while they were still together, so its going to seem like they've had a bigger influence anyway. Its easy to influence others when you're extremely huge. Now Bob, he didn't quite get that big, so its almost more impressive that his music is sticking around and spreading out just as much as the beatles. I'm not some "frat boy" or hippie by any means, but when i do smoke a joint, Bob is what i want to hear, that or Mr. Bungle, depending on the mood.