Take the Side: Electronica VS Country

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all this shit about scratching and "beats" make me wonder whatever happened to a guitar and a song about your truck..i still sing about my truck and i need no DJ or blipity blinking noises to go with it. i think it's all those 3rd world places like "england" and "europe" that ruined it for me. roast me on a spit and take a side...

― Arrow Core!, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So let's talk Alabama 3. (chorus of voices: "NO!")

Uh -- I can't answer your question, I like 'em both. Embrace both beat and twang, and find love.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I'm with Ned. Why the false dichotomy, anyhow?

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yes. Hail madonna! Hail Hannah Marcus! Hail folktronic! Hail Ameritronica!

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Dude, don't you remember Rednex? Have your cake and eat it too, 'z'what I say.

― Clarke B., Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

It's as valid a dichotomy as "pop"/"rock". i'm not gonna bother to answer the q. tho.

― Duane Zarakov, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

uh, i mean, i'm with Ned too. i'm certainly not with the guys who said rednex or Albama 3.

― Duane Zarakov, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Now I am totally dying to hear a song that has scratching a "blipity blinking noises" but twangs on about a truck. That would be so great.

Oh, and I'm taking the side of Electronica, just because all the rest of ya'alls are just straddling the fence. There are more electronic- pop songs I like than pop-country songs. Though Shania Twain is the best person ever.

― Ally, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Don't worry, Ally, my friend Chris Bradbury will create it. He papers his wall with trucker album covers and listens to things like Kid 606 and Current 93, so whatever he comes up with will be...interesting.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Actually, Ned, Alabama 3 aren't that bad live...though I may have been stoned at the time so don't take my word for it!

Bill

― Bill, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ally, I'm straddling the fence because I don't think that it's necessary to choose one over the other. I'm listening to Autechre now based on the recommendations of ILMers, and digging it greatly, but earlier in the day I was reading No Depression and eagerly looking forward to the new Lucinda Williams record, as well as many other more traditional-style country records. The idea that you have to choose one vs. the other is, to my mind, just plain silly. More to the point would be something like "Nashtrash vs. traditional country vs. alt-country" or something like that, but I don't know if that's even a worthwhile dichotomy, because it's still possible to like bits of all of them.

As for Shania Twain, despite the fact that she's a fellow Canadian, I think Steve Earle was...er, "on the money" when he called her the world's highest-paid lap dancer.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Oh, I was just teasing with the fence straddling. Clearly it's not something you should take a side over, I just figured for the sake of discussion it'd be better if SOMEONE did ;)

And that's why Shania Twain is cool.

― Ally, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ah, never mind me. I am humour impaired today. Although I do find this "I'm with Ned" thing increasingly amusing...a little Ned's Army, if you will. I wonder if it'll work with guest lists at shows..."Yo, I'm with Ned." You gotta GET WITH NED, baby.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

You down with N.E.D? Yeah you know me!

Sorry, I'm horrifically bored right now and I TOTALLY do not feel like writing this stupid complaint letter about the stupid A/C.

― Ally, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A posse of my very own. I feel so bad-ass. Now let's see if I can shoot somebody and get acquitted.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ned, can I assume from the above that "Arrow Core!" is you?

Damn. And there's me thinking it was Ethan :).

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

oh, good one robin. especially since i can't even figure out how you think arrow core is really ned. i mean, come on.

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Maybe I read too much into Ned's "posse of my very own" line ...

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was about to say. Are you quite all right, Robin?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Shania Twain is all right. I hate when people use her as an example of why mainstream country sucks, because she's pretty unique - there isn't really an army of Shania clones out there, and besides she's gone so far pop that you can't even call her country anymore. She's pretty much an outsider as far as Nashville is concerned, I suspect.

― Patrick, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Think so though totally skewed in places. I do wonder who these rampant anglophobes are behind their guise (because they can't be real, ***can they***???). My guess would still be Ethan. I like the *idea* of me doing such things, but sadly it isn't.

― Robin Carmody, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I disagree, Patrick. Shania Twain is exactly where country was heading over the past number of years, with the tide really turned by someone like Garth Brooks, who used KISS as a formative influence. Then the production sheen was added in, and all of these artists who formerly had the country matron look (rhinestones, big curly frightwigs and such) suddenly got hip, cut their hair, dressed in slinky clothes and started doing the sex kitten pose on the cover (Lorrie Morgan and Reba McEntyre are the two most obvious examples, though there are certainly more). Shania is really the end result: the glamourous country queen, supposedly sexy but still just a little bit trashy. I mean, did you ever take a look at the back of her Christmas EP, God Bless the Child? Here is a work that's supposedly dedicated to the Baby Jesus, and she's baring her midriff and straddling a couch like she's trying to conceive little couchlets. As for the fact that she was produced by a big rock producer...well, so were the Eagles. I don't see the appeal or the uniqueness, really. But then again, sometimes I'm just a great big crankypants.

― Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

dammit, i'm not an anglophobe!

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ethan, I know you're not an anglophobe. I just wondered whether you might have contrived those postings as a *caricature* of certain attitudes.

― Soft Magnets, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Hey, this thread makes me wonder what Alan Lomax would have said if geeks with modular Moogs had turned up at the Grand Ol' Opry. There's a cracking concept album in there somewhere. Damn, made it already!

― Momus, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

ladies and gentlemen, dj momus!

― ethan, Wednesday, 9 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Did Alan Lomax have anything to do with the Grand Ol' Opry ? Either way, I like Momus' idea.

Sean - I can't say I've followed the evolution of Shania's appearance over the years, but it still seems like she's working a little outside the Nashville machine, the way that Mutt Lange co-writes and produces all the songs. I mean that's just not done, you're supposed to use THEIR songwriters, their producers, their musicians, not your husband who used to produce Def Leppard. And as far as sound goes, no current country artist has come close to going as far towards dance-pop as she has, including Garth Brooks, who still has to get his first pop radio hit (that Chris Gaines thing excluded). It's okay if you dislike her, but I think she's more of an oddity in the world of country than a symptom of some ugly turn that Nashville has taken (Faith Hill might be a better example of what you're talking about here).

And as far as looks go, female singers getting rid of the big hair and all that, that's just the industry keeping up with the times. Most of mainstream country's audience is now suburban, and Nashville is worried about performers looking too hillbilly.

― Patrick, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Nice plug for Folktronic there, Momus.

I mean that's just not done, you're supposed to use THEIR songwriters, their producers, their musicians, not your husband who used to produce Def Leppard Fair enough, that's a good point. It's an aberration, to be sure, but I still think her sound, Lange or no, is fairly similar in principle to many of the other female country artists out there. Whenever I'm unfortunate enough to have to hear modern country radio, it's spooky just how much it resembles slick pop from the 70s.

Most of mainstream country's audience is now suburban, and Nashville is worried about performers looking too hillbilly. And that right there is the problem with modern country and why it all sounds like 70s MOR. I want my country music to be done by people that look like hillbillies. I'd even prefer it if they were rural, by God, because that's what country music is theoretically all about.

― Sean Carruthers, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Speaking of Folktronic and Shania, one sure way she could redeem herself in my eyes is by covering "The Penis Song". Okay, so maybe I wouldn't really respect her any more than I do now, but it'd be funny as hell.

― Sean Carruthers, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Country's just evolving with its audience, which is inevitable, I guess. Kinda like what happened to rock, really... when programmers have to please a large chunk of the 12-CD crowd to stay in business, they're not gonna take chances. I find most of the results deplorable too, but hey, the old hillbilly stuff is still out there for those of us who want it. Plus you still got yer Jimmie Dale Gilmores and yer Iris Dements.

― Patrick, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Country music is theoretically about hillbillies? Please. Could you be more condescending? Oh, and on a lighter note, I would like to point out that I plugged Nick before he got around to it himself.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I was actually stretching the point for dramatic effect. Heh.

― Sean Carruthers, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Arrow Core!, for the curious, posts from the same IP as Kevin Enas.

― Tom, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The above, I have to say, is an easily imaginable origin.

― Corn Riggs 1 and 3, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Lomax surely hated the whole idea of Grand Ol' Opry: it was — after all — an invention of commercial radio. The Lomax folk field- recordings went a country mile to avoid anything "tainted by commerce". Calt and Wardlow are hilarious (and caustic) abt this in "King of the Delta Blues: the Life and Music of Charlie Patton."

― mark s, Thursday, 10 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

In 2 hours i will perform at a party as part of electro-redneck improv uberposse Schneida Twain - twangs 'n bleeps from Neukassel onder Rheine - thought of it while reading this thread - cheers !

― achtung geordie !, Saturday, 12 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Can we change the FT tagline to "Sometimes I'm just a big old crankypants"?

― Dave M., Saturday, 12 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No, it has to be "These Limeys with their dry wit sicken & despise me."

― mark s, Saturday, 12 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Or "kind of like touching your grandmother's leg."

― mark s, Saturday, 12 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Near my stereo just now I have three albums: Sarah Ogan Gunning's "Girl Of Constant Sorrow" (a 1965 Folk Legacy vinyl lp of radical Appalachian labor union songs from the 1930's), Karlheinz Stockhausen's 1968 epic "Hymnen" (musique concrete consisting of cut- up national anthems, which I've known since I was a child growing up in rural Iowa--I can almost hum it), and Momus's recent "Folktronic." What links them? In a sense, they're all partly about "country" and the meanings of "country," I suppose. And I love them all. But really... Shania Twain? Well, I guess there must be something beyond the cleavage and my sisters probably like her, but give me Tammy Wynette any day--or better yet, any Gullah singer from the Georgia Sea Islands. And Kraftwerk--now THAT's country!

― X. Y. Zedd, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Lot of intelligent points in there.

But something tells me ...

*hmmm*

is this another pseudonymous posting from Momus akin to those which once had me fooled on afm?

― Robin Carmody, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sorry, Robin--as much as I'd like to change places with Momus, I don't think he'd find it an equal trade, since I have probably a quarter of his wit and a thousandth of his money (not that he doesn't deserve it!). I took my nom-de-ordinateur years ago from Victorian hacks who often chose to sign their rancid feuilletons with obvious pseudoynms like "Mr. X." and "XYZ." I'm flattered, though! (Of course, one might argue that this is still Mr. Currie trying to be even cleverer.)

― X. Y. Zedd, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

a mister m____ posting to a mechanical bullet-in board under a false name supposedly inspired by victoria? i tell you, the queen just shat herself.

― ethan, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

words to 'north to alaska' almost drowned by filtered splattrbreaks, good gig - great partae

― Thanx fer askin', Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Not by Victoria herself, but by people from her era. If it isn't Momus, then congratulations on such a fine opening shot, whoever you are!

― Robin Carmody, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I don't think Shania Twain is trying to compete with Tammy Wynette. She'd probably sooner be Madonna - and I don't mean that as a putdown of either performer.

― Patrick, Sunday, 13 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Even Shania Twain must have her place, I admit, but I hope she's not trying to be Madonna. Isn't one enough? (Madonna has enough trouble with Brittney nipping at her heels.) Whatever she's trying to do, I hope she gets the opportunity to wrest creative control from her producers or whomever and do things on her own, which at the least could be more interesting. Why not duet with Bjork? Coproduce a trip-hop album with Tricky? Or star at the Met in "The Golden Girl Of The West"? After all, Tammy made a great single with the KLF.

― X. Y. Zedd, Monday, 14 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

five months pass...

Don't you see...if you could find a way to seamlessly mix the two, you'd make a mint of boucoup long cash!

― Lord Custos, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No Shania Twain DOES NOT have her place. She is satans little helper and the sooner her career bombs the better. Shania Twain, and Leann Rimes and all those other tools are not country. They do however manage to make country a living joke, they're fantastic at that. I keep saying I like ALT COUNTRY. we wouldnt need the fucking ALT if it wasnt for Shania and co. Why is it alt? It's all influenced by what actually was country back in the day. Ronans pet hates number 9 million or so.

― Ronan, Wednesday, 31 October 2001 01:00 (twenty-three years ago)

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