What makes coFlow "avant-garde"?

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the second track sounds like if preemo dropped a couple dat's into his toilet tank like 2000 flushes. (damn, that's pretty close to an el-p rhyme!)
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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the problem with coFlo is they didn't go far ENOUGH - i want to hear about structural characteristics of monosaccharides and what they plan to do about it
-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 25th, 2002. (tracerhand) (link)

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yeah it was always so ninth grade like dude if youre so into bugged out mental science how come youve only read philip k dick !!
-- simon trife (r55r5@=/9+-9/), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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el-p tries to pull kool keith on the opening to track 3 circa black elvis (er, wait, does this mean he actually predicted it? black science fiction by white guys is so complicated), but unfortunately he then turns back into el-p "dropping so much shit his ass needs a diaper" (actually, that was a juss rhyme from track one, but whatever.) i just remembered that track he guested on the quannum record...when you're getting schooled by lyrics born, you've got a problem!!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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I like the idea that Brandy has a song that sounds like Grindin?
-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), September 25th, 2002. (tracerhand) (link)

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track 4: "we hate it when these mc's try to fuck with us"...el-p sure likes to say "corporation" even tho it's gotta be one of the most awkward words to drop into a rap in history. (he also likes to say "pedophile" a lot, make of that what you will.) there's some horns in this track; where's all the sci-fi beatscape shit!?
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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dude missed the point, it wasnt that keith was just on some space shit or whatever he was on some FUNNY space shit!! el ps idea of a joke is end2end burners
-- simon trife (55tt^^@/*=-), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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tracer i meant 'what about us', its a difft rugged style than grindin but i bet r jerkins and chad neptune were thinking about the same robot pussies when they cooked the tracks
-- simon trife (545tr@44), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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Fuck this thread
-- Nate Patrin (natepatrin5500@msn.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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jess youre doing that track by track awfully fast, its almost as if youre only listening to the first thirty seconds of each song!!
-- simon trife (4rr5@yt/9+-9/+-), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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track 5 has some nice spinchter opening epmd bass-shit going on, i'll admit. big juss is the best part about co flow; i wonder if it was just him and not el-p if we'd hate them as much. otherwise it just sounds like yr typical 95 undiehop. they shout "big juss!" like a track from moment of truth ("it's preemo, guru and something something!")...more coflow prescience!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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PATRIN ALERT!!!
-- simon trife (o0;.0@8.;=/+-=), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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Well jeez it's not like somebody used my name in conjunction with some stupid junior high bullshit joke OH WAIT
Christ, you people wanna be retards without the unwelcome intrusion of people you talk shit about, then be retards on IM.

-- Nate Patrin (natepatrin5500@msn.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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Remember when El-P and Sole battled each other? "By calling yourself independent you belittle the whole movement!"
Trife have you heard the new Xzibit? As polished Dre-funk-commercial as he gets, it makes a pretty good case for new roughness.

-- Honda (onehalf@sbcglobal.net), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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nate you just published your first review and it was about anticon! we weren't talking shit!! (it was a good review, btw.)
simon, how dare you?? i'll have you know i listened to the whole of the last track.

anyway, track 6 contains the line "in bizarro world where co flow is the new pop sensation", so maybe you're right after all, simon!!

-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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track 7 is some "turntablist" shit. oh no!! the goverment is out to get us!! OH NO!!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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if this was spin, i'd call track 8 "gnostic rza-influenced hiphop that sounds like it was recorded in a masoleum." it actually sounds like it was written and programmed in the time it took to get the tape rolling and not in the good way.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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co flows realest moment was that anticon dis track where they sampled the dude saying they were the best and called it linda tripp, thats just all purpose
-- simon trife (uok@78=/-/), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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Well I'm not on Anticon's dick or anything (find me ONE EXAMPLE on this board where I was), I just liked that album out of sheer circumstance regardless of label affiliation. "Nate's beloved Anticon"... christ, man.
-- Nate Patrin (natepatrin5500@msn.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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track 9 is more preemo shit (in other words it moves by standing still, rather than turning around in circles like the rza, uh, flavored shit does), nice descending xylophone (?) melody in the background. this might sound good if it was on, say, the rj-d2 album without the rapping.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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nate you know i hear you, i wish youd post to ALL my threads!!
-- simon trife (6tjhyf6@343), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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no
-- Nate Patrin (natepatrin5500@msn.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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"But unlike other independent-minded hip-hoppers -- who view mainstream rappers like Nas and Jay-Z as vapid and commercial -- El-P isn't interested in overthrowing hip-hop's gangsta elite. "It's not about us versus them," El-P maintains. "It's about who makes the better record." He even rejects the "independent" tag, which connotes left-of-center purists, for his own label. "Independent?" he asks angrily. "What the fuck does that mean? I put out Cannibal Ox on Def Jux. That's some straight-up street shit from Harlem." And he becomes infuriated at the suggestion that hip-hop might currently be drowning in it own vanity. "Hip-hop doesn't need to be saved from itself," he says. "The music has a built-in sense of survival.""
...

-- But Wait! (zzz@zzz.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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and honda i havent heard the new x but i plan on picking it up, i love forty days and forty nights and his last one was good too
-- simon trife (3@akj8*/*/), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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track 10 is MORE preemo shit, at least of the "come clean" variety. i wonder why everyone sez co flow is so influenced by the wu (well, i mean they ARE, but...) "syncopated shit"...could this guy syncopate ANYTHING?!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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track 11 ACTUALLY BANGS. but it's all over in 34 seconds!! why?!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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track 12 is a freestyle. PASS.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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(i should clarify that track 11 "actually bangs" in the style of, say, hard dj shadow tracks.)
track 13: "i've been nastiest one since birth." where were nas's lawyers that day? "as i flow fluently"...um...uh...um...

-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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Fuckyoufuckyoufuckyou, El-P ROOLZ!
(ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha)

Anyway, the new thing is the whoo-whoo theremin from Brandy's "Full Moon" which is also on the new 112.

-- Sterling Clover (s_clover@empty.org), September 25th, 2002. (s_clover) (link)

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track 14: my bellybutton has this really fucked up odor today. can you tell i'm getting exhausted with this? this track is a lot more like the typical atypical arrhytmic coflow of legend.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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track 15 predicts bollywood hiphop by 5 years!! okay, not really. can i just say that it's better than talvin singh?!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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track 16 sounds like dj cam recorded underwater.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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jess you blockhead, fire in which you burn is to truth hurts as gift of gab is to eminem
-- simon trife (664u@j/9-6+), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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Jess, it's "I drop so much shit my anus needs an icepack," which you have to admit is a lot better.
-- Clarke B. (clarkebo@yahoo.com), September 25th, 2002. (link)

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track 17 is almost dainty. um, at least for the first 20 seconds. oh wait, this is the one where el-p moans about his step-daddy! i will say that i vaguely respect him for this song, since showing weakness in hiphop is a bit like being masculine in indie rock! i do like the stalker horns creeping through the mix.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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"fire in which you burn" = "and now, along extra-long raga by ravi shankar."
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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and sadly fire in which you burn is one of their only three good songs (along with vital nerve or patriotism)
-- simon trife (65thu6yu@32), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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haha jess what about showing weakness in hiphop that only indie rock dudes listen to??
-- simon trife (hukmurkm@3434), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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along = another. krusty must be turning over in his grave in shame.
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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'rory bellows'
-- simon trife (yrjiyrjn@5ryg5), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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track 18: who knew hell was a week being trapped in the basement of fat beats with only stretch armstrong for company!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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i knew that
-- simon trife (7ujy@43tf), September 25th, 2002. (simon_tr) (link)

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track 19: ...
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

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thank god that's over! now where's my fucking jean hersholt humanitarian award?!
-- jess (dubplatestyle@hotmail.com), September 25th, 2002. (dubplatestyle) (link)

i was talking to ethan tonight, and i said that it wouldn't really bother me if someone sat down and did a track by track pisstake of a fall record. to which he replied: "i couldn't even listen to the fall. at least i UNDERSTAND co flow. on some level it makes some kind of horrible sense."

i'm too tired right now to really put this into context, but i think it's revealing.

And I think there's plenty of worth in a fall comparison with the noise/rantization of traditional forms, except that when I "get" the fall I hear a whole world of genres within them, like they have the secret of rock and replicated inside the secret is the whole of rock. I don't hear that with coFlow. Is it there?

sasha frere-jones on the wu-tang clan: "the rza was building a new house for hiphop, a place to mourn and think and wander. if anyone happens to dance or have fun along the way, bully for them. funk was never really part of the plan. the mc's would handle that as they saw fit."

i think it's wholly possible co flow built their entire career/aesthetic out of misinterpreting this goal.

For someone who has such a large appreciation for chartpop, Jess, you certainly have a preoccupation with "cred."

About the emotional thing, El-P is really effective at oppressive kill-joy anti-feelings for people who find masochism in excessive stoicness. He sometimes slips in some moody organ chords or something to cultivate little post-RZA omen moods which are still suffocating half the time. When I saw CanOx live the crowd was completely fucked, attempting to have a good time but falling apart to the fractured rhythms. I like the man-into-machine texture of things but it seems more caught in the middle of referrents that I like more isntead of actually triumphing as some crazy innovative juxtaposition.

Sterling, have you heard Dalek? Surely it sheds light on the subject here...

Aren't you the same guy who the other day called someone a "cunt" and "retard" because that person didn't think the Streets album was all that hot? I'm guessing you don't like the Fall all that much if someone could go through any album track by track and negatively comment on it, because you go batshit over little things.

1990s: Rap is well into its third decade and while it continues to be ridiculously successful certain people think that the predominance of danceable, pop-influenced yet viscerally sexual, fashion-conscious and tough-guy-ethos infused gangsta and "player" rap are harmful to the genre. They react with ponderous "abstract" rap and virtuoso turntable theatrics. Eventually underground rap merges with a few compatible genres such as IDM and glitch to create whatever it is you call Prefuse 73. The movement is hailed as a "return to hip=ho's roots".

Not a judgement call -- just a contrast I find pretty interesting.

As far as the persona of Co Flow/Can Ox, I think part of it is the "survive and defeat all rivals" ethos of the modern-day concept of battle rap taken as a personal musical credo and infused into general life. It's in the lyrics -- El-P's flow reminds me of a man onstage feverishly clutching a mic trying to get as many fatal jabs at his opponent in the shortest possible amount of time, and I can understand if it sounds grating if you're used to laconic g-funk style or linear storytelling raps.

Something I gotta correct: "I think the avant-garde label is affixed to their deep cynicism towards traditional hip-hop elements" -- er, I thought the underground rap types were all feverishly devoted to defending the traditional hip-hop elements i.e. MCing, DJing, b-boy dancing and grafitti. I've read interviews with Company Flow where they basically say that if you don't know where rap's place is in the hip-hop scheme of things that you should probably reconsider being an MC. If you want to deride indie rap, deride them for giving too much of a fuck about traditional hip-hop elements.

I'll be here to answer other questions and get mocked later.

Also, Patrin is OTM on his analysis of the Dej Jux strain.

Then again most of arguments I've seen against underground hip hop on ILM usually do come down to some sort of "authenticity" paradigm revolving around "street" cred or race, etc.

and why do you insist on creating boogeymen "on ILM"? just for the sake of argument?

Non-US hip-hop I enjoy because even though much of it sticks pretty closely to a Rawkus or Premier or mellowed-out RZA template musically, either language or accent pretty much forces MCs to flow differently.

and yes, nate is right about the 4 elements; considering that co flow called one of their ep's "end to end burners", which had to be one of the first major graf references in hiphop in some time.

Don't really care about all the ideological stuff.... it's way overloaded. Probably don't agree with the undie rhetoric, but don't have any trouble ignoring it and think that some good music is being made in spite of it...

I agree completely, which is why the Can Ox record completely bowls me over. I dunno what kind of hip-hop fan this makes me, but I pay more attention to the mood and feel of a song than I do to the lyrics. Just the way I am with all music. But with Can Ox, the mood forces me to listen to what VA is saying. I love the production. I forget exactly what my Voice Pazz & Jop quote was about Can Ox, but something along the lines of it sounding like a fucked up Brian Eno record. Which I'm sure I'll get trashed for saying here.

jack you make the mistake of thinking i give a fuck one way or the other. i just don't like being misquoted or misrepresented in a public forum. you can do whatever you want to misrepresent me in your little fiefdom.

Er, I've seen a few things that have stated "Pop Rapper X is better than Undie Rapper Y because X is more 'real,' 'street authentic,' 'connected to the masses,' etc." Or the inverse: "Y is less 'real,' 'more cerebral,' 'underground,' etc." I think both approaches are pretty silly for pretty much all music, but esp. when you're talking about a genre who's first real achievement in the pop sphere of things was the Sugar Hill Gang. I mean, this debate is as old as hip-hop itself, and it's not going anywhere, and honestly you'd think after 25+ years, it'd get kinda old. That's my take, anyways.

More preposterous than any Def Jux foofaraw I've heard is Talib Kweli rhyming "where were you the day hip-hop died" on his otherwise not-that-stupid Reflection Eternal album.

Also, people should note that everybody calls coFlow avant-garde and so the self-label hardly matters. That would be like nabisco complaining about the "post-rock" sameness coming out of Chicago and stencil replying "hey! they didn't ASK to be called 'post-rock'!" Also, regardless of if they call themselves avant-garde or not, are they? Or are artists only what they say they are?

Also, there is an absolute distrust for traditional hip-hop elements. Otherwise the beats and MCing would (duh) sound more traditional.

Of course if they stuck to the traditional elements they'd get lumped in with J5 et al. and called "conservative" so I guess it's damned if you do etc.

anyway, ilm only uses english ironically.

The point is, even though that stuff isn't brand new, it's still viable because people still care about it. Can you dispute that?

so expect more inconsequential ilxor rambling forthwith

also i tried to play cold vein earlier on, but then i took it off and played mobb deep instead

top of the pops was AWFUL (except for busted and pink obv): i try to like bon jovi and i try try try but he is clammy

sara cawood introduced aqualung by saying "and now, for those of you who think the charts are too full of pre-fab pop..." and supergrass and beanie man were playing LIVE!! what tiresome prauncing is this? listening to neptunes "live" is like eating blue maggot sushi with corned beef

Either way his worldview crumbles in a pile of illogic and hasty accusations. Muhahahahahaha!

vs.

"The blues had a baby and they called it rock and roll."

Come let us discuss the SHOCK of the new and the SHROUD of the past!