Taking Sides: Entertainment! vs Remain In Light

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Or - why has punk-funk (in terms of people borrowing sounds and styles nowadays) come to mean so much the former and so little the latter?

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 26 September 2002 17:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Disco beats are easier to play than African rhythms?

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 17:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Lefty political slogans are easier to write/shout too.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Thursday, 26 September 2002 17:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Yancey nails it I think, also Talking Heads don't have quite the hipster chic that Gang of Four do (stateside at least - American's were largely spared "Is it Love").

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 17:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not sure that I agree that Go4-style is more utilised today than RIL. What T.Heads did there seems quite commonplace ever since even uber-mainstream bods like P.Gabriel are vaguely world-beat. Also found in more organic sorts of Techno (Leftism?) and Goa shit.

Maybe thats not answering the Q though as those examples aren't punk-funk. If I can have anutha take then I think Yancey is on the right track - anyone can do Go4 - it's really easy, though you need a decent drummer. The polyrhythmic stuffis obv more difficult.

I don' have much time tonight (as you can see) but will think abt this some more...

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I like that Chris Frantz didn't know about Remain In Light's African influences and polyrhythms until he read the David Byrne interview in the press kit.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:12 (twenty-three years ago)

To mimic GoF it's easy, yes. But to do it as well as they do is much more difficult. I much prefer Entertainment! to any Talking Heads album. (my fave TH record is Fear of Music, by the way)

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Entertainment! > Remain In Light

Talking Heads > Gang of Four

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:14 (twenty-three years ago)

to play off of yancey, disco beat's are easier to dance to than african rhythms?

― Brock K. (Brock K.), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

I think that something like Belew solos are incompatible with today's more dogmatic and orthodox conception of punk, too - too much prog baggage or whatever, "produced by Eno? can't be punk!" or whatever. (Not that this has ever been party-line or anything, but the sonics-over-sweat thing is generally frowned upon by punks).

Also, Solid Gold is a better record than Entertainment.

― Clarke B., Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Solid Gold isn't better, but it's good enough that it should be mentioned a lot more.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

Amount of good records:

Talking Heads > Gang of Four

In their prime:

Talking Heads < Gang of Four

Biggest assholes:

Talking Heads >>> Gang of Four

Dumb statements:

Also, Solid Gold is a better record than Entertainment >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anything anyone has ever said... Ever. Ever. Yeah!

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I like Remain In Light more than any other 'postpunk' (or 'punk' or 'new wave' or 'Talking Heads') record which is kind of why I asked the question, because I was listening to it and despite Dr C I really DON'T think many people have ripped it off, not enough anyway.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:23 (twenty-three years ago)

I think Yancey's on it, too.

But on the other hand, I think the question's a little off. It has to do with Gof4's simplicity, sure (think of Eno getting a hold of 'em, tho), but something about the scale of the albums' strengths keeps me from putting them together.

Entertainment! sounds like the beginning of something, (1st alb) a kind of simple, brilliant template for a band: solid-state MGs revamped for maximum spike + Frankfurt school shouting, GO! (exercise: play "Damaged Goods" and "Green Onions" back to back)

RiL sounds like an end (4th[??] alb). It's very much its own document, a more finished thing; where can you go from there? The interplay, the vocal arrangements (my fave aspect of the record) sound like a band summarizing and expanding their ideas rather than laying out their project for the first time.

As far as what's being used now, I think there's some TH in there, too, cf "house of jealous lovers" (one of the most annoyingly egregious Andy Gill rips yet, imo) which rode a more polyrhythmic dance groove than Gof4's ideology would allow them to make ca E!.

In short, "punk-funk" = Gang of Four, but Talking Heads = "Talking Heads."

― g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:32 (twenty-three years ago)

Entertainment! sounds like the beginning of something. . . RiL sounds like an end. . . where can you go from there?

Great point.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I see what you mean but I think RiL sounds different enough to any previous TH work (thematically similar to Fear of Music yes but sonically less so) that it could have been a beginning for somebody else. It just wasn't.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Disco beats and African rhythms--what's harder to play? The question doesn't really make sense to me. I don't know that much about African rhythms (a reductive phrase, I assume--it's a big country, there are different rhythms, etc.), but it seems to me that those rhythms are all about interplay between a few if not several percussionists, some of whom maintain a pulse playing very simple patterns with only the slightest shifts in nuance (albeit, slight shifts whose effects can be seismic within the context); a disco drummer, on the other hand, has to hold the whole thing down himself, keeping the steadiness, yes, but inflecting it with (again) subtle shifts in nuance (presumably the stuff that gives it "swing"). So what's easier? And what's easier to do well? My guess is that it's easier for a disco drummer to be one person with two hands than four people with eight hands. Granted, disco beats might

― s woods, Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Might what?

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:47 (twenty-three years ago)

I forget.

― s woods, Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:48 (twenty-three years ago)

Still Go4-type songs are a lot easier to write than RiL songs. Plus, as noted above, it takes more musicians to do RiL songs proper.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:50 (twenty-three years ago)

One area Remain In Light has had some influence (or at least get's namechecked) is in the hippie jam-band community. How much of this is purely due to Phish's covering it I'm not sure, but go to a recent David Byrne show and the place will be packed with trustafarians.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

'RiL sounds like an end (4th[??] alb). It's very much its own document, a more finished thing; where can you go from there?'

Straight into the toilet! I mean, 'Speaking in Tongues'? Starts off real good, then about 1/3 of the way through you realise the whole band has been kidnapped by aliens. Remember the 'Disco Not Disco' thread where I made some silly comment like "Captures a movement before it went to shit"? This is the 'shit'. No, not 'the shit', just the 'shit'. That 80s boho downtown Laurie Anderson Haring Basquiat Kostabi Mapplethorpe Gordon Gekko...you know. The Bill Laswell years. The album title - playing on the band's name, cute. The song titles! "Wild Gravity", "Girlfriend is Better" - fake new-wave titles more suited to Oingo Boingo or somebody Canadian. The second half is so completely disposable it beggars belief - all the complaints that people made about Byrne's singing finally were given some substance here, just compare the elongated breathy puling on "Moon Rocks" (that falsetto, yarrghh) and the completely unlistenable "Pull Up the Roots" (the "out of my mi-i-i-i-i-i-i-ind" is the worst singing he'd done up to that point) Then after that they never produced another note that interested me, except maybe a couple things on the back half of 'Naked', but that wasn't even a band effort, was it? The final strike against 'SIT' - 'The CD and CS editions contain extended versions of some tracks', what kind of conspiratorial industry shit is that? 'SIT' was the first Heads album I ever bought, and I played the shit out of it, it was pretty radical for where I was growing up, but then I bought 'Fear of Music' and 'More Songs' and 'RiL' which still fascinate and inspire and entertain me. I was going to make a whole thread out of this but it's a bit trivial isn't it? Sorry for not answering the question. I'll just go with everyone else and agree that getting an 'Entertainment'-type sound is just EASIER

― dave q, Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I like "Girlfriend is Better"!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:57 (twenty-three years ago)

yr the fuckin man, dave

― g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 26 September 2002 18:59 (twenty-three years ago)

RIGHT ON, dave q.

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(Like, "Swamp" basically OWNS the category 'songs you don't mind when they're on even though you know they're completely worthless shit'. Blues songs and country songs should have relatively straightforward lyrics or what the fuck's the point of them? "Big Country" is perfect, "Swamp" is mainly for people who thought John Lee Hooker benefitted immeasurably from Carlos Santana's pro touch) "Girlfriend" is OK

― dave q, Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:00 (twenty-three years ago)

C'mon, when "Swamp" comes on in Risky Business you know you smile!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Looks like University of Illinois!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:02 (twenty-three years ago)

'Risky Business' - never saw that film - is that why every jock in the UBC bar would bellow "Ah-HI-HI-HI-HI-HI!!Whooo-hoooo! Goddam this punk music kicks ass!" I was wondering where they might have picked it up!

― dave q, Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:04 (twenty-three years ago)

I've heard remain in light, it's okay, dunno the other one.

― jel -- (jel), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Best post ever!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:10 (twenty-three years ago)

dave q - maybe, although it was a big hit album so they might have heard it from there. You've never seen Risky Business - it's got Joe Pants in it! Plus - Tangerine Dream, and Balki!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think it's so much that Go4 is easier to copy, it's just that they SOUND easier to copy. The success rate of bands that try to copy them is something else entirely.

― Nick A., Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Joey Pants! Ralphie's about to get clipped!

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not so sure (it always seem like he's about to get clipped) - but pissing off Johnnie Sack means he has no one left to turn to. Poor Adriana on the other hand...

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Adrianna's dead. No question. They can't kill off Ralphie. They already killed off Richie way too quickly.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Who's easier to play: Adrianna or Janice?

[As another aside, Jackie Aprile -- RIP, etc. -- was a deadringer for Kurtis Mantronik.]

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Define "play". Jackie Jr. did look like Kurtis Mantronik! I'll be honest there are very few characters I would be shocked to see whacked the way this seasons going - if I didn't know this wasn't the last season I'd be worried for Tony.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:39 (twenty-three years ago)

Paulie's gonna get it too.

What do you mean by "play," Andy?

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:41 (twenty-three years ago)

I want badly to contribute to this thread because RiL is my favorite album ever, but I don't know nothing about Go4, or any "punk-funk" scene. I agree that RiL's "African rhythms" might have influenced different types of music (electronic), while Go4 influenced more guitar kids. I disagree that Speaking in Tongues is shit. I like it as much as Fear of Music. "Swamp" is kind of intense if you're in the mood for it. I am sometimes, but you might not be. Remain in Light is my very favorite album. It's great. Thank you.

― A.V. Alexandre (Keiko), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Play in the same manner used in the discussion that has been hijackt. I guess.

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Paulie's gonna get it too.

I'm really glad Christopher made the wings comment about his hair. Put an Eagles jersey on him -- bam, is that Donovan McNabb?

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:47 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh, clearly Adrianna then. With Janice, you have to contend with the fat slut/new-age hippie/contemporary Christian musician characteristics, all the while making sure the makeup girl gets the Rolling Stones tattoo on your left boob just right.

With Adrianna you just play a dumb Jersey girl. Which ain't hard. The actress who plays her (De Mateo or something?) actually lives on the lower east side. She has two huge dogs. I see her on the street occassionally.

To get this back on topic: Which Sopranos character is most likely to play in a punk-funk band?

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:49 (twenty-three years ago)

To answer my own question, considering her Casio prowess, clearly Janis coulda been in Suicide.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:50 (twenty-three years ago)

This is if the question were to include no-wave, natch.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:50 (twenty-three years ago)

I bet Janice was down with MJ's anti-Mottola (sp?) rant, since her CCM electroclash duo has decided to go the indie route.

Anthony Jr obv has aspirations to be in a Slipsnot-style band. Punk-funk, I dunno. Meadow's ex, tho he's no longer in the show, I guess?

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Why Noah? Because he's of mixed race? Fucking racist!

And yeah, Janice should be in Stereolab.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Melfi's kid is as obnoxiously pretentious as Bill Laswell so him I guess. Maybe Hunter.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 19:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Here's an episode/real-life crossover: Stereolab's in town to play a gig => they need a keyboard player => Janice finds out and tries out => Tim Gane laughs at her lack of skillz => Janice has Time Gane clipped => no more Stereolab

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:03 (twenty-three years ago)

It would be better than Flaming Lips on 90210 and the Waitresses on Square Pegs combined.

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Stereolab's protected by the Russians, so no go.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Plus the "Tim Gane laughs at her lack of skillz" part isn't plausible.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:07 (twenty-three years ago)

What if Massive Genius were to produce a Tim Gane solo record?

(yes, let's be geeks)

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Hesh triumphs!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Good one.

― Yancey (ystrickler), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Plus the "Tim Gane laughs at her lack of skillz" part isn't plausible.

Yeah, she is pretty good.

― Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:11 (twenty-three years ago)

I'd suggest Meadow for a postpunk-funk band (rich girl from the suburbs moved to the city, Ivy Leaguer), but the *N-Sync poster and Ms. Sigler's actual music career prevent me.

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:14 (twenty-three years ago)

I was so excited to see this thread blow up, and then...

― g.cannon (gcannon), Thursday, 26 September 2002 20:15 (twenty-three years ago)

"Remain In Light" is a classic album. End of discussion.

― Derek Dalek (Derek Dalek), Thursday, 26 September 2002 21:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Damn it, Derek! You put it so much more succinctly.

― A.V. Alexandre (Keiko), Thursday, 26 September 2002 21:32 (twenty-three years ago)

ALL RIGHT YOU FUCKERS, I don't have HBO and will have to wait to see Sopranos plot twists. Can you please take that to another thread instead of one I actually wanted to read (and now will not bother to in order to keep some sense of surprise when I finally get to see the damn episodes)? Sheesh.

― Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Thursday, 26 September 2002 22:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Big Pussy gets whacked!

― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 26 September 2002 23:17 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm glad to see "Speaking in Tongues" get slammed; I disliked the album back then (tho I have that stupid plastic spinny-circle package) and it spelled the end of my interest in the band. "Remain in Light" is great, tho.

― Sean (Sean), Thursday, 26 September 2002 23:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Looks like I've come in to late to participate in the discussion, but I'll add my 4 (aust) cents anyway.

I might be a fucking idiot, but Entertainment! to me doesn't sound that funk orientated at all... The Pop Group I can understand, but Entertainment!? My first encounter with the GoF was a free 7" of 'Is It Love?' Thank god I persisted with them.

Everyone knows anyway that the best Gang of Four song is the original (not the Yellow EP) version of 'Armalite Rifle'.

― Sasha Gabba Hey! (sgh), Friday, 27 September 2002 01:56 (twenty-three years ago)

Er, not that I'm down with any of the revival scenes at the moment, but I'm guessing the legacy of RiL (or at least the first three tracks) is the everything-for-the-groove ("track" as opposed to "song"?) that people are claiming for the Rapture etc (nb I have not heard anything by the Rapture); or recent Dismemberment Plan.

― Ess Kay (esskay), Friday, 27 September 2002 04:16 (twenty-three years ago)

three years pass...

wtf, Dismemberment Plan!? Erm . . .
anyway, I've never seen any live footage of the Talking Heads - if I was wanting to get a good look at their RiL-era drummers/percussionists live, which of the DVDs/&c would people recommend?

― etc, Monday, 9 January 2006 00:23 (nineteen years ago)

why has punk-funk (in terms of people borrowing sounds and styles nowadays) come to mean so much the former and so little the latter?

because RiL's in a style that's hard to do right, and when it's not perfect it's just depressing (see: !!!)

― Lukas (lukas), Monday, 9 January 2006 00:42 (nineteen years ago)

I'll just go with everyone else and agree that getting an 'Entertainment'-type sound is just EASIER

well it's been over three years, I thought the point bore repeating

― Lukas (lukas), Monday, 9 January 2006 00:44 (nineteen years ago)

that new remain in light reissue (due out today!) has live footage of "once in a lifetime" and "crosseyed & painless" from german tv.

there's stop making sense, of course - similar lineup, different results.

― pompe vers le haut du volume (haitch), Monday, 9 January 2006 01:24 (nineteen years ago)

I'll just go with everyone else and agree that getting an 'Entertainment'-type sound is just EASIER

well it's been over three years, I thought the point bore repeating

the funny thing is that, while a GO4 sound is definitely easier to ape for a gigging band, the improvement in technology (and cheapness) is such that a RiL sound is totally within reach on record for aspiring bands, in a way that it wouldn't have been 25 years ago. you could probably make a decent stab at it in ableton live if you had the patience and talent to lay down all the loops yourself, and "play" the mixing desk in the same way that eno did, with the fading tracks up and down etc. of course playing out live is a different matter when you need your lineup + extra guitar + extra bass + extra synth + percussion + two vocalists. a lot of it is just doubling up to thicken the sound, plus they were all shit-hot players in that extended heads lineup, where's the average indie band going to get extra sidemen with enough skill to avoid the result coming out like soupy noise?

I really think that RiL is as much a product of recording process as the extended lineup, and that a band like !!! wouldn't get the same result even if they were more talented. look at "me & giuliani" - nine minutes long but it's more songy, it has buildups and breakdowns and shifts in a way that nothing on RiL does, where everything always stays on that one groove. RiL-era talking heads would not record a song like that. (speaking in tongues-era heads might though.)

― pompe vers le haut du volume (haitch), Monday, 9 January 2006 02:09 (nineteen years ago)

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