I can't believe ILX hasn't polled Legend yet - Bob Marley

Get Up Stand Up cuz he was always at his best w/Bunny and Peter imho

Get Up Stand Up, though if Concrete Jungle were on here it'd be that

"Stir It Up". Lovely luscious track. Also the first tune I learned on the bass.

I have never really gotten my head around why Marley stands so far apart from the pack in the reggae genre - it's like he's not even a part of it, he was off in his own stratosphere of success, which seems to have functioned almost entirely independently of the rest of the Jamaican music scene in the 70s.

'Get Up, Stand Up' or 'Jamming'.

Stir It Up.

'could you be loved' - fucking club jam

The second-last song should be 'Exodus', I don't think Marley has a song called 'Legend'.

stir it up

There was a time when this album (and the first Violent Femmes) were issued to every incoming college freshman.

yeah is there any other specific comp that defines a major artist's legacy as much as legend?

Singles Going Steady, but that's not even close to being on the same scale (in the US, at least).

ABBA Gold

The way house parties went in college, I'd always be sitting there annoyed that someone was playing Legend again, but then Stir It Up would come on, and probably right at that moment my buzz/high was starting to take off, and it'd be all good.

Love it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE3WaSETf8k&noredirect=1

redemption song has made me cry on occasion

That recent Marley doc ("Marley") is fantastic btw. Shakey's point is made clear in that you don't once see a soundsystem or dance. Post-Scratch you don't even hear the name of a single other JA musician either.

I've been meaning to get around to watching that in the hopes that it will answer my question. I assume its due to some combination of his unusual songwriting + loads of money/being on Island Records + not actually being in Jamaica much post-success but what do I know

I never realized his father was white.

Watching that youtube was almost like hearing Stir It Up again for the first time. Amazing.

singles going steady isn't a bad answer - i know a weirdly huge ppl of number who own/love it but have zero inkling to buy or listen to any other buzzcocks, which seems odder than w/ legend or abba:gold cuz (in the us at least) ppl who know singles going steady are more curious/"serious" music listeners - these are ppl who would laff at the cliche of the reggae lover who only owns legend. abba:gold probably closest thing but even there you have hits that aren't on it but are widely known thru mamma mia or tom ewing's promotion of the 'the day before you came', etc. whereas i have never heard a bob marley song not on legend on the radio but i have heard every song from legend on the radio and everywhere else for that matter.

xp
I'd recommend any music fan watch that doc regardless of their taste. I'm pretty much a typical reggae snob and don't bother with Marley after Scratch, but I found the whole thing really compelling. Some amazing concert footage too, like playing a concert for Zimbabwe's independence.

Definitely Island's money/promotion plus the production choices, which live made him sound closer to funk rock than reggae.

or Sly and The Family Stone's comp.

xpost

The touring aspect seems really crucial re: Marley's legacy.
It is a great doc.

yeah, there's a pretty key moment where Bunny quits because he doesn't want to tour the UK in the winter

the production choices, which live made him sound closer to funk rock than reggae.

I have definitely been struck by this - his records certainly don't sound like other Jamaican records of the time, they have a sheen and clarity that was very much rooted in US/UK rock production standards. combined with his unusual way with melodies/song structures they really set him apart from his contemporaries (I don't think he's necessarily *better* but his stuff is instantly identifiable)

The Jamaican/foreign versions of Catch A Fire (maybe other albums, I don't know) were reissued a few years back. You can get them back-to-back on spotify. I prefer the foreign version tbh.

yeah is there any other specific comp that defines a major artist's legacy as much as legend?

Someone on fb just reminded me of Steve Miller Band's Greatest Hits, which probably rivals Legend in this regard.

I prefer the foreign version tbh

I'm not sure what version I have - what are the differences?

The foreign version most likely, if it sounds slicker. I think they have the same backing tracks, but the foreign version has them mixed lower with very clean lead guitar/clav/organ overdubs. The Jamaican ones are more organic, much more like a band playing in a room.

Someone on fb just reminded me of Steve Miller Band's Greatest Hits, which probably rivals Legend in this regard.

― Johnny Fever, Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:01 PM (6 minutes ago)

Greatest Hits 74-78... what's crazy about that album is that he'd already had a greatest hits anthology prior to this.

xps Here are the two versions of Concrete Jungle on Spotify, if you have it: original i.e. foreign version and Jamaican version

Even more marked on Stir It Up imo: foreign and Jamaican

I'm assuming the Jamaican version is obviously more rootsy, but my reggae knowledge is rubbish tbh

The Eagles Greatest Hits is another ubiquitous compilation

'could you be loved' - fucking club jam

― balls, Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The live version of Stir It Up above (which is one of my youtube favorites) gets shockingly close to the recorded version, but I can't imagine them doing that on Grey Whistle Test, and also there are some slight differences in the vocal phrasing and production, so I guess that's just a testament to their musicianship.

yeah is there any other specific comp that defines a major artist's legacy as much as legend?

I'd say Queen's Greatest Hits but I think you'd have to include both volumes.

Could have voted for any of them. Marley was probably my first experience of recorded music. My mother says i'd refuse to go to sleep as a baby unless his albums were playing. Went for Could You Be Loved in the end, though. Exodus very close behind.

yeah is there any other specific comp that defines a major artist's legacy as much as legend?

I dunno about Queen. They have specific studio albums that are lingering around the canon, if not properly in it. Can't say the same about Steve Miller Band or even Eagles.

Went for Could You Be Loved just over Str It Up.

There are quite a few reasons for Marley's success above and beyond other reggae artists but I'll try and go into it tomorrow

get up stand up

astounding solo piano versh of 'no woman no cry' on the marly doc (which im watching right now btw)

http://goodfornothingcrew.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/a-bob-marley-shirt-by-african-apparel-shows-the-photo-i-6.jpg

best bob marley songs arent even on this

the production choices, which live made him sound closer to funk rock than reggae.

I have definitely been struck by this - his records certainly don't sound like other Jamaican records of the time, they have a sheen and clarity that was very much rooted in US/UK rock production standards. combined with his unusual way with melodies/song structures they really set him apart from his contemporaries (I don't think he's necessarily *better* but his stuff is instantly identifiable)

― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 18 October 2012

there's a vh1 thing, probably of Catch a Fire, which has blackwell at the desk with the master tracks showing u all the synth stuff and he fades them out to show the bare sound and there's this moment where's he's something like, " [hesitates, somewhat surprised look] well actually that sounds amazing now but at the time the world wasn't ready"

There are quite a few reasons for Marley's success above and beyond other reggae artists but I'll try and go into it tomorrow

dog latin, i'm all ears about this when yr ready cos yeah it's an interesting one

btw will probably vote for could you be loved, but where is the love for waiting in vain?

yeah is there any other specific comp that defines a major artist's legacy as much as legend?

This doesn't though. Never seems like a big thing to me, this album, maybe it is in the US?

yeah, Marley is magnetic there. so intense.

xp
there were things that bothered me in retrospect. It's very much a biographical doc of a rock star--there's not a ton about recording or writing the music, while there's a lot about his experiences with women. Idk, I still really enjoyed watching it. Everyone commenting on his charisma makes me think maybe I just hadn't spent much time appreciating that in a long time.

I have never really gotten my head around why Marley stands so far apart from the pack in the reggae genre

I think it's sort of that maybe Marley is closer to a traditional singer/songwriter than just a reggae singer? This was sort of driven home to me by recent interviews with Jimmy Cliff, where he's been considering himself well outside the context of reggae, with reggae just one facet of his musical personality. Session overdubs and remixes aside, a lot of the songs on this comp, like "No Woman, No Cry," "Exodus" or "Waiting In Vain" or "Could You Be Loved?", seem to transcend genre conventions in a way that not all reggae acts can.

"just a reggae singer"

There are hundreds of reggae singers I'd rather hear than "No Woman, No Cry" again, and I don't see how "Exodus" is so strikingly different from scores of other roots reggae songs. Marley's career clearly diverged from the reggae pack, but it doesn't make much sense to say he "transcended" reggae when he was synthesizing conventions from other genres--an approach that Legend was constructed to emphasize. I mean, Marley's popularity with white audiences is like a perfect case study in What Is Rockism?

'could you be loved' - fucking club jam

― balls, Thursday, October 18, 2012 12:40 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― Chris S, Thursday, October 18, 2012 6:17 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

― some dude, Friday, October 19, 2012 8:25 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

re: greatest hits that are the definitive album for an act - this would make a cool thread/poll in itself I guess. I agree with Steve Miller Band x1000, not so sure about Eagles - - that album was an all time mega seller, but it's always weird to pick it up in a record bin, look at the back, and realize that it doesn't have "Hotel California," "Life In The Fast Lane," "One Of These Nights," "Lyin' Eyes," "Take It To The Limit," or "The Long Run." The Great Twenty-Eight would qualify I think.

As for Marley, don't know most of these songs but I have always really liked "Buffalo Soldier" so, that.

also, i am wrong, half those songs are in fact on the Eagles Greatest Hits - but you get my point.

My favourite Marley song is Don't Rock My Boat which is an early version of Satisfy My Soul, so I'll go with that.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I think it's sort of that maybe Marley is closer to a traditional singer/songwriter than just a reggae singer? This was sort of driven home to me by recent interviews with Jimmy Cliff, where he's been considering himself well outside the context of reggae, with reggae just one facet of his musical personality. Session overdubs and remixes aside, a lot of the songs on this comp, like "No Woman, No Cry," "Exodus" or "Waiting In Vain" or "Could You Be Loved?", seem to transcend genre conventions in a way that not all reggae acts can.

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:24 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"just a reggae singer"

There are hundreds of reggae singers I'd rather hear than "No Woman, No Cry" again, and I don't see how "Exodus" is so strikingly different from scores of other roots reggae songs. Marley's career clearly diverged from the reggae pack, but it doesn't make much sense to say he "transcended" reggae when he was synthesizing conventions from other genres--an approach that Legend was constructed to emphasize. I mean, Marley's popularity with white audiences is like a perfect case study in What Is Rockism?

― rob, Saturday, October 20, 2012 1:45 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

two silly posts, from opposite ends of the spectrum, back to back

well, second one only for the last line really

I've long been thinking I should poll "Best Bob Marley Song Not on 'Legend'". Several Bob fans I've known consider this comp not entirely representative of his best work, leaving out too much of his earlier recordings and not capturing the political/activist leanings in many of his songs.

His early work is stupendous and seriously overlooked.

I don't like Marley's big albums precisely because he "transcended" reggae. I'm no purist and have no problem with that in principle but after the early material collected on that Trojan 2CD a few years ago he jettisoned whatever it is that I like about that music. I wonder what the Venn overlap is between reggae fans and Marley fans - maybe not as big as you'd think.

can't decide out of these tracks having had a long think about it.

wd vote for "Punky Reggae Party" in a flash but i break this down to "Could You Be Loved" vs "Redemption Song" to an extent

don't really give a stuff about contextualising this shit within reggae

I'm a huge reggae fan but only own Exodus on CD and Legend on MP3. I find them pleasant but don't listen to them a whole lot compared to other reggae. Really the only time I listen to him is on compilations.
The difference between Marley and everyone else is that his music seems more designed for the long-play format. I find a lot of the Legend stuff drags along in a classic rock kind of way. There's something very "jammy" about the tracks - they tend to go on a lot longer and do less than the average 3-minute reggae single. This might go to some lengths in explaining why popular perception of reggae is that it's repetitive and "samey".

Catch A Fire / Natty Dread / Live at the Lyceum / Rastaman Vibration is "my" Marley era. Thought he went a bit drippy thereafter. That said, Could You Be Loved is unfuckwithable, of course.

The difference between Marley and everyone else is that his music seems more designed for the long-play format.

Don't agree with you there. And popular perceptions of reggae being repetitive and samey predate Marley. During its first commercial breakthrough, late 60s and early 70s, reggae was often considered, by rock crits (the ILMers of their day), to be some sort of simplistic novelty music for skinheads + other working class/ ethnic types, not to be taken seriously, unlike the new Blodwyn Pig album, for instance.

My main problem with Marley is I don't really like his voice.

Sure, it hasn't always been taken very seriously, not least in its heyday, but reggae isn't exactly famous for being an "album genre". I could name, maybe four or five albums by other artists (Marcus Garvey, Heart of the Congos, King Tubby Meets Rockers Uptown) that are half as canonised as Marley's work and many of those (Super Ape for example) are better described as producer-driven quasi-compilations. The album format allows Marley to spread out and extend songs like No Woman No Cry, Exodus and Stir It Up etc well beyond the 4 minute mark. The ubiquity of these tracks added with their length has made them seem like choreful dirges in my mind.

Don't agree with you either, dl. Mid-70s roots reggae was very much album-based. #iwasthereman

reggae isn't exactly famous for being an "album genre".

There are all sorts reasons for that, unconnected with the actual music

sure, but the fact Bob Marley was the most "album-y" reggae artist by a fairly long stretch certainly had an impact ont he kind of music he released.

Other "album-y" reggae artists from the same period: Culture, Burning Spear, Mighty Diamonds, Keith Hudson, Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, Bunny Wailer, Peter Tosh, Eek-a-Mouse, The Abyssinians, Aswad, Prince Far-I, The Gladiators, Linton Kwesi Johnson, Junior Murvin, The Congos, Doctor Alimantado, Augustus Pablo, Jacob Miller, Third World, Gregory Isaacs, Wailing Souls, Tappa Zukie, Sly Dunbar...

Just last night I was thinking that when he sings "Coming in from the cold..." he probably means 55 degrees or so.

Not if he wrote it in London!

Oh oh oh!

xp A friend of mine once told me he didn't think hip hop was an album genre. I emailed him a list of 50 classics right off the bat. I think this usually translates as "I don't personally own or know about many hip hop/reggae/whatever albums."

In terms of the pop-friendliness of Marley, I'm no reggae expert, but the history of reggae-pop-R&B crossover is as old as the history of reggae. I think what people are maybe talking about is that there isn't as much reggae with those big, shiny production values, which is partly just a function of how little money there was backing most reggae versus an international star like Marley. But there's definitely other reggae out there pre-Marley that veers closer to that almost Motown-like songwriting and style.

I have albums by most of the above names, so I'm not denying there are albums extent within the reggae genre. That said, there's no denying that a huge part of the way reggae was (and still is) consumed is via singles, compilations and artist collections as opposed to capital-A "Albums" in the rock music sense. There are of course exceptions - I couldn't imagine listening to Heart Of The Congos in any other way. But I still think the way Marley was marketed hinged very much on a rockstar approach which meant selling himself as an album-based artist (with some kickass hit singles on the way). Sure Gladiators etc released albums, but I'd argue they're much better known through comps.

most of the compilations are after the fact tho i think, in the 70s itself albums were the main form of exposure outside of Jamaica itself i reckon

most of the compilations are after the fact tho i think, in the 70s itself albums were the main form of exposure outside of Jamaica itself i reckon

― rhino what boys like (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 15:18 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Even in the late-'60s, at least in the UK, it was compilations like Tighten Up that people went out and bought. Other than that it would be 7"s. I'd posit that the average reggae fan didn't earn enough to splash out on a single artist's LP, so hedging bets on a comp or spending pocket money on singles made more sense. The emergence of artist-led LPs would have brought reggae to a more middle-class market.

In terms of the pop-friendliness of Marley, I'm no reggae expert, but the history of reggae-pop-R&B crossover is as old as the history of reggae. I think what people are maybe talking about is that there isn't as much reggae with those big, shiny production values, which is partly just a function of how little money there was backing most reggae versus an international star like Marley. But there's definitely other reggae out there pre-Marley that veers closer to that almost Motown-like songwriting and style.

― Knut Horowitz, Able-Bodied Investment Banker and Ladies Man (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 24 October 2012 15:09 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Jamaica and the US have always fed off each other for inspiration, the early soundsystems playing mostly US blues and r'n'b before ska really took off, and even then there was a healthy amount of influence drawn on both sides. I'd say the difference between this and Marley is that Marley's production and approach had more to do with rock values of the time, appealing to mainstream white Western audiences somewhat more than his peers.

dog latin, you dont' have African Herbsman? That may be the one Marley I couldn't live without.
a lot of those mid70s reggae albums were basically collections of singles.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

xposting, I think my comments were misconstrued. I don't mean to imply that being a reggae singer is somehow negative - it's probably my favorite genre, and great singing is great singing - and by transcend I mean that there are likely a huge number of people who listen to Bob Marley and no other reggae acts, just as there are people I'm sure who listen to, say, the Beastie Boys and no other hip-hop, or, I dunno, Eric Clapton but no other blues. They transcend genre in a way that for whatever reason makes them appealing outside of their root genre. This does not make them superior any more than calling someone "just" a reggae singer was intended as pejorative.

I grew up listening to Bob Marley because my dad, for some reason, really dug Bob Marley. No idea where his love came from - he listened to very little outside of Sinatra. Anyway, when I go back to those albums, and especially when I compare them to albums I love by the Congos, or Culture, or Black Uhuru or Burning Spear or Mighty Diamonds or whatever, I hear something different, more expansive (though not necessarily better!). But maybe that's just because my and everyone's familiarity with Marley, and particularly the stuff on "Legend," imposes characteristics - his "rock values" - I might otherwise not have noticed had Marley been "just" a reggae singer and not Bob Marley, international superstar.

Hmm, another good example to bring up might be something like "Many Rivers to Cross," which is on one of the (the?) most famous reggae collections of all time, is sung by reggae singer Jimmy Cliff, but isn't in any way reggae. It's just a great soul song. It's completely a product of reggae culture, which of course fed off US soul, but it gets at something different than, I dunno, "The Harder They Come."

i ended up voting for "Redemption Song"

For examples of Jamaican music feeding directly off American soul, r'n'b and funk:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dcf7tWsML._SL500_AA300_.jpg
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GQQA9AF5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Why I sold off these comps is beyond me. I'm an idiot.

wonder how many vote Exodus would have gotten if it was named properly

Reggae/Soul comp you must own: http://www.bloodandfire.co.uk/album_detail.php?id=BAFCD036

http://s.discogss.com/image/R-98050-1211553198.jpeg

^ I love 'Slipping Into Darkness' by Carl Bradney off that.

i think mike t-diva's otm re: albums, for pretty much all of those artists he mentioned they have one (or more) albums that are thought of as classics

by reggae aficionados, but not rock fans. then again arguably only Legend is the crossover record in his catalogue.

Again, dl, gotta disagree. Roots reggae albums received a lot of coverage in the rock press of the time, and they were treated seriously as albums, rather than cobbled-together singles comps. Virgin's Front Line label was an albums label, for instance. Not disputing that Legend has by far and away the biggest legacy, of course.

those comps listed above are great but man there's so much reggae directly influenced by US rnb/soul, esp in early 70s before the whole heavy dread thing really took off. love it when I hear the original US version of a song I'd thought was a Jamaican creation.
Pat Kelly, Ken Boothe, Ken Parker, Alton Ellis, Bob Andy, Cornell Campbell, John Holt, Dennis Brown, Slim Smith...all those guys are as good as soul singers as any American imo. (shame that JA didn't allow its female singers to flourish more)

So I got Marley on DVD. A really entertaining doc. Quite long, but I felt it gave a good impression of the man himself and his philosophies while maybe skipping on a few things. Turns out I wasn't entirely correct upthread about his mixed-race status giving him more credo in his community. In fact he was chastised for it, at least growing up, and this seemed to have affected his general outlook on the world and largely why he turned to Rasta and preaching global acceptance and unity. The truth is, it was his star qualities that propelled him above and beyond his status as reggae singer.

It also helped that he met the right people at the right time. Mortimer Planno obviously recognised that this new bright star could work as a mouthpiece for his teachings. Chris Blackwell also hit upon the idea of marketing Marley as a Jamaican rockstar, producing the recordings as he would a rock artist in a rock studio, as opposed to the rougher, homegrown methods of the Jamaican school of producers. I especially liked the bit where, in a bid to reach the US black audiences who had evaded him for so long, Marley agreed to support the Commodores on their tour and (from what we can tell from the doc) stole the show.

There's one song I can't stand. But everything is gonna be alright.

Have you read the Marlon James book?

no

It’s pretty good