Wire's Rules of Negative Self-Definition 1977 Poll

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Poll Results

OptionVotes
When the words run out, it stops 13
Keep to the Point 11
No Americanisms 9
No Solos 6
No Chorusing Out 2
No Rocking Out 2
No Decoration 1


kornrulez6969, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:02 (twelve years ago)

When the words run out, it stops ftw

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

As much as I like Wire, when you put it like this, I kinda don't.

how's life, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:04 (twelve years ago)

hate these

available for sporting events (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:05 (twelve years ago)

Nobody said these rules should apply to aerosmith compostions, just Wire songs, circa 1977.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:08 (twelve years ago)

No Americanisms

presumably that's electric guitars and anything structured around rock and roll fucked then

graduate of the Suzanne Moore School of Apologies (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:10 (twelve years ago)

They matured. They became a better band when they broke all these rules

Black Sabbath - violence, religious obscurantism (imago), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:14 (twelve years ago)

Nobody said these rules should apply to aerosmith compostions, just Wire songs, circa 1977.

yeah I know, and Wire made good records w/these in mind so whatever, but these sorts of things are just so charmless. "no soloing"? what if a solo would sound good in this one spot? OH NO IT'S A SOLO, IT CANNOT BE. This is fashion consciousness masquerading as a musical aesthetic and as such can eat shit

available for sporting events (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:15 (twelve years ago)

and tie-dye?

*Waits for the equivalent of Godwin's Law to kick in on this thread and somebody points out that Johnny Rotten liked Can*

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:18 (twelve years ago)

I wasn't "around" back then but these had to be a little tongue in cheek. Pink Flag is one of the funniest albums I own.

brimstead, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:20 (twelve years ago)

But this sort of thing can work as a way to challenge yourself to come up with something different instead of reaching for what might be the most obvious/intuitive 'thing that would sound good' (which guitar solos had probably become by 1977).

xpost to aero

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:22 (twelve years ago)

Getting upset about somebody's aesthetic manifesto/doctine/strategy - from 36 years ago- because it is too narrow and constricting seems a little ridiculous. I mean it's like they controlled the record industry or the airwaves or some kind of government institution and imposed this on anyone else. Also, what brimstead said. and xpost, what Sund4r said.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:25 (twelve years ago)

Nobody said these rules should apply to aerosmith compostions, just Wire songs, circa 1977.

Yes--and what's more, I'm quite sure, in 1977, they were just making stuff up to agitate Genesis (or whoever) fans. "Too Late," a year later, breaks three or four them in the best ways possible. I don't really take this as an earnest manifesto.

clemenza, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:25 (twelve years ago)

These rules would work great for one album. Not for a whole career. And in fact, Wire only had two good albums, Pink Flag and Chairs Missing (the latter is better). Then they sucked for two decades, and then the two Read & Burn EPs were great, and now they suck again (Red Barked Tree = so, so boring).

誤訳侮辱, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:27 (twelve years ago)

(xp)
Unless people keep coming up at aerosmith shows saying "Dang, Joe Perry. I heard you rock out a guitar solo/vamp on the end of that tune, long after the words run out. Ain't you read the Wire Manifesto?" which might make it something of a sure point.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:28 (twelve years ago)

A lot of great music from Chairs Missing on...

clemenza, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:28 (twelve years ago)

I wanna talk to that George Perec. man, he wrote a whole book without the letter e, my favorite letter.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:29 (twelve years ago)

The track "Pink Flag" is all decoration.

Mark G, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:29 (twelve years ago)

My favorite of these rules is NO CHORUSING OUT. It's the one that would benefit the most recording artists.

try a little crowleymass (Jon Lewis), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:29 (twelve years ago)

Choruses are great but there comes a time to shut the fuck up about your damn chorus.

try a little crowleymass (Jon Lewis), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:30 (twelve years ago)

i like manifestoes, i also think it's okay to say a sucky manifesto sucks without generalising beyond that

graduate of the Suzanne Moore School of Apologies (Noodle Vague), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:31 (twelve years ago)

Wish I could find Iggy Pop's instructions to Mike Watt before he signed him on to the Stooges reunion: No Flea-ing out. No triads, etc.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:32 (twelve years ago)

I would also wager there's an extra-musical political aspect to this "manifesto" made by art students.

brimstead, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:33 (twelve years ago)

The Dictators' Manifesto Destiny's pretty good.

clemenza, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:33 (twelve years ago)

No Elvis, Beatles or The Rolling Stones, but Mott the Hoople is OK? Think, MIck Jones and Joe Strummer.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:35 (twelve years ago)

geir was right 2013

sleepingbag, Monday, 18 February 2013 20:36 (twelve years ago)

Ha. Those words should be on this thead: why do i hate that artist thing that people keep posting on my facebook so much? why am i such a jerk?, over that Village of the Geirs gif.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:38 (twelve years ago)

"no slapping, no triads ... and no Flea-ing around on stage."

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:49 (twelve years ago)

What is "rocking out" supposed to mean here? Pink Flag sounds pretty rockin to me.

On Being Blue (Da Ba Dee): A Philosophical Inquiry (wins), Monday, 18 February 2013 20:58 (twelve years ago)

I did wonder about that one.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 18 February 2013 21:03 (twelve years ago)

Numbers 1-6 are essentially all the same thing
This list fails at its own manifesto

flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 18 February 2013 21:15 (twelve years ago)

1. Not lettuce
2. Not a tomato
3. Not a beet
4. Not a leek
5. It's a vegetable
6. It's cabbage
7. It's Savoy cabbage, none of that Chinese shit

flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 18 February 2013 21:17 (twelve years ago)

lol

we should poll those! my vote would go to "not a beet" (insert geir joke here)

wins rules at negative self-demolition (wins), Monday, 18 February 2013 21:28 (twelve years ago)

voting 'twice boiled cabbage is death' amirite here folks

Black Sabbath - violence, religious obscurantism (imago), Monday, 18 February 2013 21:38 (twelve years ago)

Ha, fgti OTM actually

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 18 February 2013 22:23 (twelve years ago)

I should also admit that 154 is the one Wire album that really clicked with me. By that point, they were clearly not following these rules.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 18 February 2013 23:42 (twelve years ago)

No, they were "INTERRUPTING OUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT LINES OF LONGITUDE AND LATITUDE...."

Mark G, Monday, 18 February 2013 23:55 (twelve years ago)

the manics had a good one that went something like 'no encores, no mustaches...'

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:03 (twelve years ago)

I’ll make it as easy for you as I can. No solos, and no decoration. Short songs only, no more than a couple of minutes, and when the words run out, the song stops, okay? Now: if you’ve got a catchy chorus, we only need to hear it once or twice--no chorusing out. Don’t pretend you’re Creedence Clearwater and start rocking out all of a sudden. The main thing is to keep to the point at all times. And no “Hello, Cleveland!” or “Let’s get real, real gone for a change”--in fact, no Americanisms of any kind. Now all you have to do is keep those six things in mind, bring me the cheque, and you haven’t broken any rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wtfNE4z6a8

clemenza, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:04 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2NaHBVVYzY

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:05 (twelve years ago)

no irrelevant unfunny youtubes

Black Sabbath - violence, religious obscurantism (imago), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:07 (twelve years ago)

you want my tuppence - Send is the best one (all-time top 20 by anyone), then 154, then Chairs Missing, then a big gap. I realise this is certifiably banworthy

Black Sabbath - violence, religious obscurantism (imago), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:13 (twelve years ago)

R&B 03 and Vien somewhere between Send and 154

Black Sabbath - violence, religious obscurantism (imago), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:13 (twelve years ago)

Yes--and what's more, I'm quite sure, in 1977, they were just making stuff up to agitate Genesis (or whoever) fans.

What was it like in 1977? Would Genesis/Gabriel (or, say, King Crimson) fans really have been agitated by something like this (more so than by Saturday Night Fever or Barry Manilow)? Were prog fans so prevalent or obnoxious that there was a need to agitate them? Or maybe it was more of an internal 'battle/rebellion' within the niche world of British art-rock, in the way that minimalists rebelled against post-serialists?

xposts

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:14 (twelve years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl-CriM6vx0

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:19 (twelve years ago)

Which serves as both another list of rules and as an insight into the cultural background of the late 70s in which this struggle was taking place.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:21 (twelve years ago)

Although I think in the Canadian versions of the film they played The Tea Party on the soundtrack instead.

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:22 (twelve years ago)

keep to the point

flaccid archives (electricsound), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:23 (twelve years ago)

It was a magical world, filled with cotton-candy clouds and cinnamon rainbows...I picked Genesis's name as a general representation of whatever punk reacted against; there are many better examples. (Didn't Gabriel sort of align himself with new wave on his first solo records? He got played on the same stations, anyway.) I just meant that Wire were trying to make some noise, get noticed, get people upset over nothing.

clemenza, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:24 (twelve years ago)

keeping to the point seems like a good rule imo

железобетонное очко (mookieproof), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 00:24 (twelve years ago)

Not sure why people are so upset by them!

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:46 (twelve years ago)

i think the words think rankles most cos bollocks to words

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:46 (twelve years ago)

also, saying "they are a bit wanky" is not being upset

the Wires might think they are a bit wanky now

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:47 (twelve years ago)

I bet you they don't. They break them all on their first album anyway.

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:50 (twelve years ago)

i object to songs having points as well

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:51 (twelve years ago)

"decoration" = classic form/substance category error

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:52 (twelve years ago)

it's like they just tossed this list off for a joke

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:52 (twelve years ago)

Are we voting for which attribute was the best for Wire's music or is the best idea in general?

Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:55 (twelve years ago)

Really great trolling, '77-style...

...hey, wait a minute.

Ceci n'est pas une Le Snak (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:56 (twelve years ago)

"No Americanisms" is the best rule btw.

Ceci n'est pas une Le Snak (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:56 (twelve years ago)

For sure, dude

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:57 (twelve years ago)

It's a totally tubular way to get gnarly.

Ceci n'est pas une Le Snak (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 10:59 (twelve years ago)

it's a lowdown dirty shame

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:00 (twelve years ago)

Whatever happened to that teenage girl who incurred the wrath of the band by making her own homemade wire videos with her friends? They really came off as jokey guys with a sense of humor on that occasion.

how's life, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:26 (twelve years ago)

What? Tell us more.

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:27 (twelve years ago)

"you're our only fan under the age of 35! stop bothering us!"

how's life, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:28 (twelve years ago)

I thought at the time that them suing Elastica was a case of old dudes getting the hump, now I'm like "go Newman!"

Neil S, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:30 (twelve years ago)

Wire's Colin Newman in online spat with fan dustup

how's life, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:32 (twelve years ago)

on the one hand this 15 yr old sounds really annoying, on the other trolling colin newman is p funny

― max, Monday, 5 March 2012 21:00 (11 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm-iest post on thread

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 11:36 (twelve years ago)

http://www.warr.org/odd70s.html#PinkFlag

Vote in the ILM 70s poll please! (Algerian Goalkeeper), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 12:33 (twelve years ago)

Not sure why people are so upset by them!

no-one's upset afaik, people are - oh no! - actually talking about the subject of the thread?

the world would be a better place w/ more bands (or artists in general) thinking deliberately about what they want to do, beyond received notions of genre or mimicking particular acts

this is an interesting assertion - I think bands think too much about what they do or don't want to sound like, but some of that could be down to where yr experience of band is - if yr scene is a place where "have a band" is a directive (thinkin' about balls's backyard here) then I can imagine "fuck, maybe don't start a band until you have an actual idea?" could be a thought you might have - but like - the mid-nineties Very Serious indie rock bands who took the most inspiration from Wire/talked about loving Wire a lot (thinkin midwestern emphasis-on-the-Rock acts) never met a set of dumb-ass "no _________!" rules they didn't like. But there's a scene in the Aja Classic Albums where Chuck Rainey talks about how Becker and Fagen were adamant about not wanting any slapping on their record, and Rainey says "as a musician, the only thing I cared about was whether it sounded good in the track" - so he turned his body to the side so they would see him slap with his thumb, and they all sang the praises of the take when he was done. Chuck Rainey otm imo re guys w/rules. NB in practice I am the worst Guy With Rules and people who work w/me would be angry to hear me arguing a "whatever works" position

available for sporting events (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 13:17 (twelve years ago)

*wouldn't see him slap

available for sporting events (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 13:18 (twelve years ago)

secretly slapping when a musician says no = otm, but secretly doubletracking = evil?

:C (crüt), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 14:05 (twelve years ago)

Seems to me Aja was a different kind of project from Pink Flag]. Walter and Chuck had already spent some time preparing for that track, so Chuck had a good idea of what Walter wanted and then made an executive decision. If he had be caught by the Funk Police they would have just done another take in another style, no harm, no foul. This was Steely Dan, not The Stooges. How many guitar takes- and guitarists!- did they record for that same song before they got the one they wanted?

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 14:09 (twelve years ago)

secretly slapping when a musician says no = otm, but secretly doubletracking = evil

always good to read a post through the end crut

NB in practice I am the worst Guy With Rules and people who work w/me would be angry to hear me arguing a "whatever works" position

available for sporting events (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:02 (twelve years ago)

I mean, I read that

:C (crüt), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:16 (twelve years ago)

this was really early wire, right? i feel like these kinds of aesthetic rules are great for when a band is starting out, it gives you an identity and you understand what kinds of songs you're trying to write - then you can branch out from that base (as wire did, very quickly)

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:17 (twelve years ago)

Has Wire apologized yet?

clemenza, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:51 (twelve years ago)

For "Manscape"? Not as far as I know.

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:56 (twelve years ago)

Sometimes context is everything. Listening to "Pink Flag" in 1977 is very different than listening to it in 2013. I wasn't aware of it at the time but "Pink Flag" stood apart from both its punk friends and establishment enemies, that's what helped make it so unique. But, of course, the best art is still vital stripped of context - which is certainly true of the first three Wire albums and, I'd argue, their 21st century output as well.

Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 15:57 (twelve years ago)

Is it still true that Wire never bantered onstage aside from their "Pay attention, we're Wire" intro on their first show?

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:06 (twelve years ago)

Even beyond these rules, Wire have always been about indulging some fanciful self-discipline, whether it's "no Pink Flag" in the 80s, or "hilarious tiny digital amps" in the 00s

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:11 (twelve years ago)

My favorite Wire song probably ("Ex Lion Tamer") has tons of rocking out. No Americanisms!

BMICHAEL, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:12 (twelve years ago)

Anyway I like this kind of manifesto, I like when Stephin Merritt said "you will not find any Casio products on a Magnetic Fields record". Kudos to any band who comes clean about their own private efforts to discipline themselves

flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:15 (twelve years ago)

Even beyond these rules, Wire have always been about indulging some fanciful self-discipline, whether it's "no Pink Flag" in the 80s, or "hilarious tiny digital amps" in the 00s

Gotobed not using cymbals... 80s/90s?

Le petit chat est mort (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:16 (twelve years ago)

iirc wire breaks the no chorusing out rule a few times

☕ (diamonddave85), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:32 (twelve years ago)

i interpret "no rocking out" to not be about the songwriting but the performance, ie no theatrical thrashing around in concert

congratulations (n/a), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:39 (twelve years ago)

yeah also i think people mistake tempo or crescendo for rocking, or want to subsume it into rocking, which, y'know, no

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:44 (twelve years ago)

"Wagner rocks man" *sigh*

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:44 (twelve years ago)

on album at least all these songs are pinched and tense and Wire-y and therefore do not "rock"

tochter tochter, please (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:45 (twelve years ago)

they break at least half these rules on pink flag but cheeky agitprop was the thing to do at the time so w/e

unprepared guitar (Edward III), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:48 (twelve years ago)

Gotobed not using cymbals...

For this alone he is a hero forever.

誤訳侮辱, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:49 (twelve years ago)

Is it still true that Wire never bantered onstage aside from their "Pay attention, we're Wire" intro on their first show?

When I saw them last winter, halfway through the show one of the original guys (not Newman) made reference to the Blue Jays, of all things. Their version of "Hello, Cleveland," I guess. That was pretty much all they said all night.

clemenza, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 16:51 (twelve years ago)

(thinkin' about balls's backyard here) - YOU ARE CORRECT SIR

balls, Tuesday, 19 February 2013 20:26 (twelve years ago)

donny don't was one of my favourite punk musicians

wins rules at negative self-demolition (wins), Tuesday, 19 February 2013 22:26 (twelve years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Thursday, 21 February 2013 00:01 (twelve years ago)

"Keep to the point" is a good rule

albvivertine, Thursday, 21 February 2013 00:05 (twelve years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Friday, 22 February 2013 00:01 (twelve years ago)

Stay glued to your TV set

Stranded In the Jungle Groove (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 22 February 2013 01:29 (twelve years ago)


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