native tongues showdown: de la soul vs. jungle brothers vs. tribe called quest

haha how did i manage to type "tribute called quest"???

though... if anyone plans on forming a covers band....

lol @ typo

Jungles easily in 3rd place imo. Real contest between Tribe and De La...and HOW DO I DECIDE?

tribute called quest w/ jungle brothers redux w/ de la soul encore

Much as I love Tribe, it's De La for me. I like the Jungle Brothers but never loved them.

Native Tongues were the backbone of my hip-hop experience, basically love them to death

would be tempted to vote for Fu-Schnickens

What's up, Dan? Do you stan?

Jungle Bros were the most adventurous, the range covered over their first three albums is just incredible. De La were the funniest. Tribe were the best rappers (well, apart from Phife's fairly terrible rapping on the first record) - just in terms of quotability and memorable lines and overall flow. I dip back into the Native Tongue Posse catalog (these three + Black Sheep etc) fairly often and the vast majority holds up really well imho. I think their place in hip hop as a whole is, unfortunately, mostly as a footnote - they sort of fall outside of the conventional narrative history of the genre, like a weird detour that the larger culture didn't follow up on. Which is not to say that they don't get cited as various rappers' favorites or whatever, just that stylistically their detectable influence is marginal. Personally they remind me of this all to brief period in African American culture where you had this intellectual, "afrocentric", middle-class aspirational movement trying to establish itself as the dominant narrative about modern black life in America (I'm including things like the Cosby Show, Spike Lee, Fresh Prince of Bel Air here) - it positioned itself as this kind of positivist, almost triumphant fulfillment of the civil rights era. Of course these things were criticized at the time as being in denial about the crack epidemic, inner-city living etc and hip hop totally swung away from this once the political stridency of Public Enemy was swapped out for the nihilism of NWA/Snoop+Dre (w/Ice Cube's solo work occupying a fascinating middle ground) and then pretty much ever since the majority of rap has consisted of people trying to out-nihilist each other, that's become the dominant narrative. and I listen to plenty of that stuff but it is kind of soul-destroying after awhile and I am kind of bummed that guys like Tribe and De La did not become more widely emulated.

iawtc

the vast majority holds up really well imho

yes

am kind of bummed that guys like Tribe and De La did not become more widely emulated

they were *sort of* widely emulated in certain scenes, weren't they?

as much as i live the jbs and de la soul, low end theory trumps everything they did i think, so i voted for tcq

in some ways I wonder if you can just put it down to the fact that white America would rather listen to stories about black people killing each other than stories about black people losing their wallet or going to the roller rink.

I know this is not a novel observation but

xp

they were *sort of* widely emulated in certain scenes, weren't they

they are the most popular purveyor of their style - for example, you can't point to guys that got huge later (except maybe I dunno, the Fugees?) and say "they ripped off [insert Native Tongues group]". They are obviously a huuuuuuge touchstone for backpacker stuff, the appeal of which ime always seem limited to a subset of white college-age stoners (see also DJ Shadow), and never seemed to have any serious commercial appeal or impact.

like, there were a bunch of smaller acts that sprung up in their wake once they stopped making records/ditched Prince Paul/broke up (take your pick)

i was thinking fugees, digable planets, uh kanye maybe, mos def and yeah backpackers and dj shadow and trip hop

i think out of all their stuff "done by the forces of nature" is a close second to "low end theory"

i probably listen to dbtfon more, now that i think about it, but overall i've probably listened more to low end theory

but you know by way of comparison the amount of stuff that emulated Puff/Biggie/Jay-Z or Snoop/Dre/Eminem is like a massive waterfall and backpacker stuff is like this tiny creek flowing into a very shallow pool

Digable Planets were contemporary for the most part...? Kanye is a case worth debating.

xp

you mean you wish commercially viable acts that captured a different zeitgeist. me too.

wish there were, even

I think the main problem is that the acts most similar to them who started attracting mainstream pop attention were Arrested Development and PM Dawn, which is really fine but is also kind of a cul de sac, especially in retrospect

I can see Kanye wearing a bear suit and being sort of self-consciously nerdy as being derived from Native Tongues. Has he ever ref'd any of these bands? I feel like he must have... and of course its clear his contrasting his "weirder" arty moves with producing Jay-Z/making nouveau-riche brags/being ridiculously pop is deliberate, he straddles that line in a way the Native Tongues guys never did (at least not very well)

xp

agh AD how could I forget!! yeah, that was definitely a case of "these guys are second-string ripoffs unfairly getting WAY MORE POPULAR"

I guess we could throw Dreamwarriors out there too, altho I dunno they weren't ever really popular were they?

Dream Warriors were alt-radio popular; they got played to death on the modern rock station

at any rate you could look at the Okayplayer crew as sort of a Native Tongues descendent, particularly with the involvement of Mos Def and Common who were namechecked as Native Tongues members by De La Soul in '96

ditto Soulquarians

yeah and I love that stuff, altho a bunch of it is only nominally hip hop (Roots/D'Angelo/Erykah Badu all taking more of a genre-hybrid approach)

I wouldn't really call The Roots "nominally hip-hop"

can we at least just agree that Common is terrible

The Tribe, decided in a nanosecond. For Midnight Marauders and Low End Theory. I used to listen to lots of shit when I was stoned but these two were constants and guests would always be asking for a c 90 copy, often like 'Hey I didn't realise ATCQ were this good!'. . Really dug the JB's as well but De La Soul's schtick seemed a bit cloying when I was a kid, all that daisychain shit. I'd probably like some of their post 3 feet high ... stuff if I listened to it these days. Heh! the Dream Warriors - Wash your face in my sink. I'd forgotten about them.

I used to wake up to The Diggable Planets (as a programable CD alarm) for about a year.

I don't see how De La could be seen as cloying unless you only ever listened to "Me, Myself and I"

de la is still putting out good music

that's true, the recent tracks I've heard were good. weird that they're the only survivors, really

Dunno what's up with Jungle Bros, but I think all the members of Tribe despise each other.

everyone's seen the Michael Rappaport doc right

(it is grate btw)

i liked tribe the most at the time (also really liked the leaders of the new school) but Is Dead and Buhloone Mindstate sound the best to me now, so voting De La

I don't see how De La could be seen as cloying unless you only ever listened to "Me, Myself and I"

I never gave them a fair chance. When I was a kid a lot of dumb arseholes who said rap wasn't real music started telling me De La was the future and they were probably listening to Oasis a few years later. Gonna check De La Soul is Dead out as a penance.

Gonna check De La Soul is Dead out as a penance.

Penance? That's a REWARD!

most of the time I think Buhloone Mindstate is actually their best record. the first one was a big gateway album for me as a kid but in retrospect it seems clear that they got better as they went on, up until Stakes is High anyway

Penance? That's a REWARD!

I meant a penance as in 'sort it out' and 'quit being cloth eared'! I'd guess you are probably right.

am kind of bummed that guys like Tribe and De La did not become more widely emulated

late to discussion here but yeah i think of the okayplayer stuff (or more specifically "people who appeared in 'dave chapelle's block party'") as being the consensus legacy of the native tongues stuff. that said those later guys always seemed more self-serious, less playful than the native tongues groups.

one thing that's so impressive about the 1st three de la albums is the way they make use of such a wide range of materials. this isn't one of those horrible, persistent "wow! black people like [name genre other than rap/r&b]!!" things (which is an argument that people made back in the day and which always sickened me) but rather an appreciation of how the eclectic sources are used in such clever, inventive ways. there's that one track on 3 feet high and rising whose hook is actually like half a bar from cymande's "bra" followed seamlessly by a james brown horn riff and whenever i hear that i'm like "damn."

actually i guess it's the "inspirational" aspect of common/fugees/mos def/etc. (not to mention jill scott) that feels kind of dutiful and dull to me, a trap de la and TCQ (and usually jungle bros) didn't fall into.

man this is difficult, i love all three.

i think Jungle Brothers, when at their best, are the best of the three, the funkiest, weirdest, funniest of the bunch

Tribe probably made the most perfect, iconic album of the three with Low End Theory, just so tight and perfectly composed front to back w/no filler

De La is probably the most important, the Me, Myself & I video really felt like a defining "event" when i first saw it, like this is just on some different shit....it's hard to compare their discography, which is really a lot more solid all the way through than they are probably given credit for, and they've just endured and lasted so long they maybe aren't perceived as classic as they should be

man, i dunno i might vote jungle brothers because if i had to listen to one native tongue album for the rest of my life it would be done by the forces of nature

yeah none of the consensus legacy guys are fun/funny at all really, except for maybe Mos Def

xp

there is a humor, a playfulness to all this stuff that is def part of its charm

mos def can be funny

common is only "funny"

My instinct is to go with Jungle Brothers. Shakey is right about the range covered on those first three albums, it's just incredible. I think they improved with each album and I probably listen to their first three more than the the first three by Tribe and De La these days. That third album in particular is just so strange and one I come back to a lot. If I was just going on those first albums they would get my vote but it would be close. I could go for De La Soul as they made some great albums later on, The Grind Date is a brilliant album. Midnight Marauders is my favourite album by any of them so I could go for them too. Yeah this is really tough.

I wouldn't vote for them if they had been included but I think I do enjoy The Blowout Comb more than any album made by Tribe, Jungle Brothers or De La Soul these days. It's very close to a perfect album.

De La, just, because their albums work best as a full listen.

i really like blowout comb and just dug out reachin', it's great but i think in comparison to the native tongues crew a little more monotonous

Reachin' is unfairly maligned imho. it is a bit samey and too long, and it's def not a patch on the second record (which is a HUGE leap, and was really unexpected)

I actually love Reachin', so why have I never listened to Blowout Comb after all these years? Must rectify.

yes you must

i guess we have a chance to get more correct results this time: tribe vs. de la poll - shit I didn't mean to make that stupid pun

Reachin' is a good album but whenever I think about playing it I always go for Blowout Comb instead. It's a real shame they didn't make any other albums.

I had really forgotten about dudes boasting about or quoting the pager as a symbol of upward mobility. Award Tour still sounds gold.

I can remember when it was safe to assume that anyone who had a pager was either a drug dealer or a doctor

argh

Is Dead and Buhloone Mindstate is as perfect a one-two combo of records as there ever was, and Posdnuos from that era is legit in my top 10 rappers of all time, love De La to death and can't imagine voting for Tribe or Jungle Bros. as much as I love both

(Stakes is High and beyond though, I definitely lose interest, there's some good songs here and there but their increasing bitterness over rap's direction really hurt how funny De La were beforehand)

the last De La thing (what I heard of it anyway) was pretty funny. the Pos and Dove sideproject...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6dbdOjWV8

still bitter about the industry obviously but I lol'd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR0qkKQhLvw

ha those are definitely a little more jokey/entertaining. the last album I heard from them was the Grind Date (which is almost ten years ago now?!), which had a couple joints on it but was def not doing the humor thing much. when it was, it was "funny" like the humor on okayplayer records which is to say not

I like Midnight Marauders best of their collective discogs, but De La trumps Tribe for consistency and longevity. <3 the jbs, but I think it's telling that my favorite track of theirs also features De La & Q-Tip.

can't decide, was gonna vote Tribe then remembered Stakes Is High. did Phife ever release a solo album?

JBs first few albums are great, but they fell (off? idk there were still some fun jams but...) so hard with the later stuff, while De La have never made an album that wasn't really really good.

Have also seen De La do probably the best (and one of the worst) live rap show I've ever seen in recent years.

Tribe wins for recording the first rap albums whose lyrics I memorized.

De La wins for amazing consistency and longevity. I've always stanned for The Grind Date round these parts.

I ended up voting for Jungle Brothers, It's so close between all three but My Jimmy Weighs a Ton pushes them slightly ahead for me. That song is just perfection.

I think that Done By The Forces Of Nature might be my favourite record by any of them but Tribes consistency might win overall. For me De La only really had two great albums.

I can't believe that Black Sheep have only been mentioned once - my favorite Native Tongues album for sure is "A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing." Wall-to-wall great stories, production, lyrics, quirk, humour, a couple of dance-floor fillers - and it has aged well.

come on now

it's a good album, and "the choice is yours" is obviously as good as any rap track ever but i don't it really holds a candle to tribe / jbs / de la albums

I feel nothing for that Black Sheep album.

i can't type right these days

I don't know how, but Italy had a different set of releases back in the day. I can only assume that Tommy Boy licensed to them way before they signed with BigLife for the rest of the world.

Stuff like unique remixes of "Tread Water" for instance, which I bought at the time.

I found out, recently, that there was a 'Best Of' that was unique to them too, so I got one via ebay about a month ago:

http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-244770-1340693450-2142.jpeg

http://s.pixogs.com/image/R-244770-1340693465-6372.jpeg

(Sorry it's large, but you can see the track listing)

Listening to Blowout Comb for the first time ever this morning and chillin' (as much as possible at work anyway.) Nice....

"Similak Child" is my Black Sheep jam. I think that record is on par with all but the very very best of these three artists.

black sheep rule!

its been recorded on ilm that the first rap cd i ever got was three feet high and rising. i dont remember how that happened. i dunno, i probably read about them in spin because they did a song with spacehog or something. i liked the way it sounded; i liked the beats and weird interludes but compared to what i was hearing on the radio and what my friends were listening to and what was on tv, these guys sounded like tone loc but made less sense. i didn't understand tribe either. but at the end of the day remember part of it was that i was just coming to it ten years since it was relevant. ill never understand GOLDEN AGE rap-- the term or the music celebrated under that banner.

i also saw the same people who probably got me to ask my mom for three feet high trying to pull the same shit with me with mf doom, mc paul barman, deltron 3030 and parappa the rapper. i also resented the tone they used to condemn everything that came after except for a select crop of weirdo shit that i tried really hard to get but that all sounded irrelevant when i was hearing other contemporary stuff that really hit me.

i also have a problem with music that seems not to take itself seriously, and jokes.

thank you
my favorite de la song is "eye know" btw

Parappa is an awesome game tho c'mon son

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dVZ26YKu70

can you explain the posdnuos reference in the final quarter of the eminem verse here
also shakey who has the illest verse on this in your opinion

dont want to come off faux naif here cause i do get what native tongues was about and i appreciate everyone here sharing their sincere love.

Would love to get hold of the full project that J. Beez Wit the Remedy was the released part of. Remember reading about a longer and possibly more out there set taht the label didn't feel able to release.

Probably about time it got a Deluxe version too innit?

I nabbed 4 unreleased cuts called Crazy Wizdom Masters from a torrent not all that long ago. It's also called The Payback EP. They're on Youtube, too.

http://www.headheritage.co.uk/unsung/review/1057

what's not to get - the daisys line leads into the Pos ref

Yela gets off the best verse imho. I love these cypher things.

xp

Probably about time it got a Deluxe version too innit?

this will never happen unfortunately

the Crazy Wisdom Masters stuff is pretty interesting.

shit man, i didn't think you'd come back with anything on that. daisies!

Voted for Tribe as they're one of my favorite groups of all time, period. Their run of albums is rock-solid to me, especially the second, third and fourth albums. First and fifth aren't shabby either. One of my favorite live groups ever too, even when I saw them on one of their little reunion tours a few years ago.

I've always loved De La Soul too but find myself listening to them less often nowadays. When I do, it's mainly Buhloone Mindstate ("I Am I Be" in particular was a big moment for me) and Stakes Is High, which still strikes me as better than the treatment it received and perhaps their most consistent album. Of course, consistency was never what people liked about them, which is maybe why that album and after is less praised. I had "De La Soul Is Dead" on cassette, and learned years later the CD had additional songs that weren't on the cassette, and now when I listen to it it's mainly on CD and those extra songs that I'm not used to really bug me and pull down the album. "Kicked Out the House", for example, and "Who Do U Worship?" I asked them once about this and they said the cassette matched the vinyl and the vinyl could only have so many songs on each side.

Jungle Brothers I've always found hugely underrated, though these days when I go back and listen to them a lot of stuff doesn't hold up as well, even on "Done By the Forces of Nature" which at that time was my favorite album of theirs. "Raw Deluxe", where they got less interesting and more straightahead, has been sounding good to me lately.

I liked Black Sheep, too, but wouldn't put them in the class of the others.

eh I'd put A Wolf in Sheep's Clothing up there with a lot of the classic stuff discussed here. even though they definitely slowed down after, Dres himself also stayed a pretty great rapper--the joint he had on that Handsome Boy Modeling School record in '04-ish was one of the few highlights. (also their Hammer diss "Here's Another Asshole" is superb.)

De La Soul were so good when I saw them open for Tribe. Tribe was solid, but De La were super tight. Though the highlight was in Tribe's set when they played "Award Tour" with a happy stage full of awesome.

Gonna go with Tribe. I love love love De La, Buhloone and Is Dead are unfuckwithable, but...yeah Low End and Midnight Marauders is home for me. And there's just that warm happy tone to Q-Tip's voice that feels immediately familiar for me. Total nostalgia vote.

also was just listening to this this morning so

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WILyWmT2A-Q

I only saw Tribe once (at Lollapalooza in the middle of the day lol) but one thing that struck me about the live footage in the doc is how much their personalities/presence are lost by having to YELL EVERY LINE just to be heard over the booming backing. Those guys have voices that sound best laid back and quiet, which is not something you can really do live, not at a rap show anyway.

As soon as I saw a tribute called quest I thought of my old roommate calling de la "déjà soul."

Anyway my heart says atcq, head says de la, really like jbs, and in the past few years listen to blowout comb more than any of those. Otoh, midnight marauders. It's atcq.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Late write-in vote for "The Fabulous Chi Ali" LP.