Taking sides: Greil Marcus vs Dave Eggars

The CD sounds extra-cutesy and, besides, is by TMBG. I think you can dislike that without despising everything McSweeney's stands for.

Eggers is a very Internetty writer, from the little I've read by him. The self-knowledge and constant second-guessing, the (to quote M.Daddino) "prophylactic irony", the occasional huffily righteous outrage, the rhetoric, all surrounding a core of...what? Banal therapy-homilies, mostly. ("Create! Say Yes! Be excellent!"). It's all very similar to the shut-in, precious tone you find on most widely-read personal websites. Like I say I've not read much.

He's said some very interesting things - his comments on Dylan and critics were perceptive - and some very stupid ones - his comments on critics and bad reviews in general, for instance. I never get the sense that he's a very empathic person (again see a lot of Internet writers).

Marcus on the other hand....his taste seems frozen into liking punky Americana and his critical method frozen into seeking moments of strange state-of-things clarity, but I can't deny his influence, or the shiver of recognition I get when he does get it right. So I'd take Marcus, with the caveat that nothing he says surprises me any more.

I went into Waterstones in Islington in a hurry, to buy a birthday book for a woman I kind of fancied, who was seeing a guy I felt she shd be rescued from. And I'd skimmed reviews of the Eggers book, but couldn't remember his name or the title. "It's called something something Staggering Genius," I said. "Over there," said the sales assistant, pointing to a huge hardback stack I'd walked right past. "And I shouldn't say this, it's more than my job's worth. but DON'T BUY IT. It's ABSOLUTE UNREMITTING UNBELIEVABLE GARBAGE."

Can't help being intrigued by a book which causes people to risk losing their JOBS!!

I bought her _Elephant_ by Raymond Carver. She's marrying the guy.next month.

Folks are dead on on Eggars. McSweeney's contains fairly decent writing on a regular basis, and the website has occasional bouts of genius (also, the Neil Pollack Anthology and that he's published a Johnathan Letham book). I think Eggars is a shitty writer but a good editor, with good taste in other folks product, and an actual intention to follow through on fostering that command (Create!). I buy McSweeney's regularly, for the good stuff which it always contains -- in some senses, it is second only to Conjunctions as an engaging literary review (which is all it is, really, just a really cutesy one). But Marcus is right on about the irritating things -- especially as they move from one-trick ponys to playing the same prank over and over. Tom is right about Marcus too. I like him when he's addressing things which I am at least mildly conversant with -- some of his more obscure Americana picks and his writings thereof are just plain inscrutable. Which is his other problem -- some of his writing in general is plain inscrutable. He's been better lately, but I used to play the "find the ugly Marcus sentence which is incomprehensible" game with each Real Life Top Ten. But however Marcus circumnavigates to come to his inspirational moments, he at least claims them for what they are. Eggars, meanwhile, goes through great lengths to avoid saying nothing. Which is unforgivable. Also, Eggars shit about irony is setting the critical discourse of the english language back decades.

Marcus mythologises music - intellectual poser who probably spent more time writing about music than listening to it, I agree with his criticism but he's pointing out the obvious. Eggers mythologises Eggers and admits this at every opportunity, so if you don't buy his schtick, you can't say he didn't warn you. A handy defence. What's wrong with cleverness? It's only funny if you're in on the joke. But I'd say the same about RocknRoll, only it's more exclusive, whereas cleverness embraces Rock n Roll.

Yeah, but as a defence - as a trick in the first place, actually - it's on a level with the "ha, i meant you to say that" trick on Internet BBS. You can go beyond criticising the self-mythologisation and criticise the act of warning, too. My judgement of Eggers is based on the times he does drop the schtick anyway, and what he says then is pants.

"who probably spent more time writing about music than listening to it"

I really really really doubt this.

And besides, I'm not going to accept that the phrase "intellectual poser" can be used in a negative sense!!

I love it when British people say "pants"! Say it more, Tom! Say "pants" again!

Er. Anyway. Indirection is a useful device for building tension, or for acknowledging (and disarming) critical shortcomings, or etc. But indirection turning into its own device? Bleh. I mean, Marcus at his best (few and far between these days) is out of this world. Parts of Mystery Train, parts of Invisible Republc (screw Lipstick Traces! Hell with that shit!) are excellent. Marcus is not afraid to pour out his heart. The only problem is that he sometimes doesn't bother to decode it.

"Pants": just one element in an impressively extensive critical terminology — indeed, ideology — jemmied into the literature by Viz magazine. Does mass meda influence us? Yes!! And never so much as when we DON'T ACTUALLY READ IT!!

well, as probably the only person who's commented so far to read heartbreaking work etc., i can say that, when eggers lets his guard down, drops the schtick, he's a fine writer with things to say and interesting ways of doing it. but when he drops the schtick, he's vulnerable and so he knows this, so he'll be in the middle of a harrowing passage about his parents' funeral and then he'll throw in a "clever" narrative trick or retreat to self-obsession. the book opens with "miscellanea" on how to read the book and his defenses for writing the book and so forth and i regret that i wasted my time on it, but i'm one of those folks who has to read everything in a book. does anyone remember in pee wee's big adventure when pee- wee falls off the bike in front of the kids and gets up and says, "i meant to do that"? that's dave eggers.

so i guess i have to go with marcus on this one. yes, cleverness is the opposite or rock n' roll. there's nothing rock n' roll about, say, mid-period kinks or belle & sebastian or blur at their most annoying. and there's CERTAINLY nothing rock n' roll about they might be fucking giants.

"Intellectual poser" - Not a criticism. I'm interested in the positions Marcus takes but 'the intellect' gets in my way. It feels like he's setting up complicated apparatus to perform a simple function. Eggers, on the other hand, is complete artifice, but I happily waste my time with him.

i have no idea what this is about but i loved VIZ (our local cultural nexus THE CLUNY recently did a retrospective exhibition) and Pee wee Herman's work so im drawn to it - i read lipstick traces and intha bog so i am a hexpert - that porno at the end of the latter was well crap and wouldn't get into the pages of FORUM even on a bad week.

Rockwriters you'd like to read porno by - now there's a thread.

Best not wish for what you don't really want to recieve...

Ew, what a thought. Why did you bring that up, Tom?

As for the subject matter at hand -- I freely dislike both of them! Down in flames! I tried to read _Staggering_ and gave up after the eightieth wink-wink-nudge-nudge-ironic! sidenote, which I think was on page ten or something. Greil, meanwhile...eh. Next!

Ned: testing the market.

i don't think i've read anything by either, but 'greil marcus' makes me think of the last indiana jones movie (about the holy grail, naturally) and that funny guy marcus who was bumbling and cool and stuff. specifically when he has the notebook and indiana jones is captured tells the nazis 'marcus is a master of disguise, he knows a hundred languages, he'll blend in like a chameleon' or something like that and then they cut to marcus and he's staggering around absent-mindedly in this marketplace asking all these middle eastern folk questions about where he is in this aggravated british accent. it's funny.

I am 400 pages into _A Heartbreak Work..._ and it is funny as hell. Eggers came to read at my school a couple weeks ago and he struck me as a geniune and humble guy. The whole They Might Be Giants Thing is pretty silly, I mean, I can't stand that band. It's like listening to someone trying so hard to be funny and failing miserably. It's painful.

An interesting (perhaps FT-like) moment in the book occurs when Eggers is driving through California with his 10 year old brother singing along with Journey's "Any Way You Want It." (He's enjoying terrible pop music! Isn't that what FT is all about?)

is that the song that plays during the party at the end of the simpsons episode with rodney dangerfield? because that song is awesome.

It's what FT is about if those behind FT thought that all we did was talk about terrible pop music that we ourselves considered as such.

Trust me, we do not. And it seems that Tom and I and others will have to keep repeating that until it becomes clear to certain people.

(I was just kidding. I have nothing but love for FT. )

Sorry for sounding snippy. But it's a sensitive point...

nobody answered my question.

I think the answer is 'yes'. Happy now, Ethan?

What's 'clever' about Belle & Sebastian? I don't think they're that clever. I don't even think they're that 'clever'.

But do you 'think' they're 'clever'? Do 'you'?

No.

I found myself reading Josh's last post in the style of Paul Whitehouse's 'suits you, sir' character, and it raised my first smile of the day.

Rockwriters I'd like to read porno by: Byron Coley, Steve Albini, Kris Srinivasan, Ally Kearney, Tom Ewing, Chuck Eddy, Josh Kortbein. If I'll read them writing about bloody music, of course I'll read them writing about sex. Richard Meltzer's porno in Forced Exposure was really good.

This thread drives me crazy because I always confuse "porno" and "pomo." So I don't know what's what.

I have to say I'm rather glad Otis didn't include my name in that list. Even I don't want to know what I'd write about sex.

Now I am torn between (a) writing some porn so I can see what Otis thinks of it and (b) not writing some porn because, ugh, that seems like it would THE MOST EMBARASSING THING I HAVE EVER DONE. Sorry Otie, I suspect (b) will win.

Nah, Josh. The most embaressing thing you've ever done would still have to be panning all the best singles in the last focus group.

Here, lemme mail you my ballot for THIS YEAR'S focus group.