How far can liking Hip Hop or R&B go before you start inviting accusations of tokenism?

Cameron Crowe/Nick Hornby to thread!

a) I'm still a tokenist at heart.
b) It's a great record.
c) Both.

Incidentally - why are hip-hop, dance and electronica fans who only own a couple of rock records (by, say, Radiohead or the Beta Band) never accused of 'tokenism'? Smacks of inverse snobbery to me.

The reason, Matt, I suppose, is that it's intrinically hard for a minority group to exercise 'tokenism'.

Because it's better. It's better than most records.

Also, possibly because it was a pop song first and foremost? Because the subject matter was pretty universal? Because of the humility? Because it was less "intimidating" or "threatening" to the casual listener than say, Jah Rule or even Eminem? I really don't know.

Piece of piss to research this and weight the findings against the total market. So it's probably true.

Ignoring the objection that this is begging the question, what about Public Enemy then? Or are they great pop as well?

(Ronan - counter-example: DJ Shadow, no?)

Nup, Hornsby's down with LL Cool J, fooh! "Goin' Back To Cali" is amongst Nick's top5 records of all time according to the German edition of "Rolling Stone"

Liking it so much actually retarded my appreciation of hip-hop because I was expecting that sort of thing from every hip-hop rec I heard until I realised that was being a dick about it

Yeah Tom, same thing here- except it was "Fear Of A Black Planet", not "It Takes A Nation..."

the fact that Miss Jackson was all over most kinds of radio in a way in which other hip-hop records might not have been

This is one of the reasons I love Outkast so much- they are the closest thing to an universally adored group that I've ever seen in my life- the Hip-Hop Heads love 'em, the Indie Kids love 'em, the Teenyboppers love 'em, even the Old Skool Metal fans begrudingly admire them- EVERYBODY fucking loves Outkast (well, maybe not the Nu Metal fellas, but oh well.) I don't really feel like finding out why, I just wanna celebrate that fact.

i suppose this could well be true but i'm uncomfortable with it somehow, maybe just because that wasnt the case for me (at least its not like i was a rock fan who one day realised dance or hip hop could actually be quite good) - but surely its more a case of everyone starts off with POP because you love that as a child and it forms the basis of your relationship with music and your tastes will then grow and diverge from that once you're old enough to appreciate more whats NOT pop music and what that means

Tom:How do you mean? I'm confused.

I just can't imagine accusing someone of having token rock albums because everyone is so constantly smacked across the face with the Beatles and other mainstream rock stuff past and present. They aren't token rock albums, they're still percieved as essentials or something similar.

I'd say liking rock is more widely a second step in the evolution of people's musical taste, I know it was with me.

Can I nominate this for Misconception Of The Year?

Tracer: 'I think it's ok to call them black people now' hahaha... Hmm... where I went to high school (fairly integrated school in Nothern Virginia, circa late '80s, listening to Rob Bass & DJ EZ Rock and PE was fairly standard... But when I arrived at college, private school in NYC cirica early '90s, some of my (white!) friends were confused by my record collection...

To answer your question, an interesting one, I guess it's not bad, per se, but it exhibits a sense of guilt at white privilege and suggests that one's likings are dervied from this sense of guilt, rather than from a pure--just liking the music--vantage point. Maybe, if guilt exists, it means that you think this is good for 'black' people, and want to support it as such...

I think your question is refreshing though--'why is this bad'--its seems that it is often conncected to some kind of self-hatred on the part of the 'white' person, an uncomfortable-ness with 'who they are'--again, you might be right ask, 'why is this bad?'

From Tom's thread, though, does anyone not listen to this type of music, I am reminded that now hip hop/ r&b is so 'commercial' (gasp!) that no, probably no one would have a problem with it or with anyone listening to it...

A good or bad thing? Refer to that thread to find out...

You might like to know that Dangermouse and Jemini have an album out called "Ghetto Pop Life"!

(And it's got a song called "I'ma Doomee" heh.)

And what about classical traditions? Strongly religious people who get into church music? Pop fans? Non-westerners? Folkies?

'black hip hop fans aren't really into live concerts'

Matt? Hein?

that's really not true for a lot of people in the US

Its not true for Ireland either. I got serious about music through indie-dance type stuff like Orbital, Underworld, Massive Attack. I know plenty of people who never cared about any music until Straight Outta Compton/The Chronic/36 Chambers/... Given that some of them later decided that GnR/Metallica was better, rock seems to be the thing that needed to be "got in to."