taylor swift red poll

out of the corner of my eye i thought this said "taylor swift neti pot"

i find it hard to evaluate the singles on this album up against the album tracks so

album tracks

1 all too well
2 holy ground
3 begin again
4 state of grace
5 sad beautiful tragic

singles

1 22
2 i knew you were trouble
3 red
4 we are never ever
5 ed sheerhan joint

i voted 22

then~
all too well/starlight
we are never
i almost do

i want to vote treacherous/i knew you were trouble/all too well as a multifaceted joint peak, easy top 3 anyway

4. red
5. begin again

haven't listened to this album in a while, but iirc my favorite is "red"

actually "red" is kind of up there with the top 3

"red" for the melody, "treacherous" for the feelings, "trouble" for the pop rush, "all too well" for the craftsmanship

or is it "treacherous" for the craftsmanship and "all too well" for the feelings

i believe they're called "feels."

i voted trouble

i only know the singles and i only like the country radio ones, "Red" narrowly over "Begin Again"

the keyboard on "red" eventually won me over

tuff. gonna impulse vote 'the lucky one' since i feel it may be underrepresented.

voted Holy Ground

Holy Ground
Red

Trouble
Begin Again
Starlight
Treacherous

All Too Well
Never Ever
22
State of Grace
The Lucky One

Sad Beautiful Tragic
Stay Stay Stay
The Last Time

would vote "Girl at Home" in that second group, with Trouble, Begin Again, etc.

otm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZHhQKKRdc

not blind to the attraction of that

1. all too well
2. 22
3. red

all too well is amazing, i don't even mind that part of the teardrops on my guitar melody was recycled for it

Love "We Are Never..." but never really got into this album otherwise.

1. starlight
2. sad beautiful tragic
tie for 3: red/ trouble
tie for 4: all too well / 22

AND I GUESS WE FELL APART IN THE USUAL WAY
AND THE STORY'S GOT DUST ON EVERY PAGE
BUT SOMETIMES I WONDER HOW YOU THINK ABOUT IT NOW
AND I SEE YOUR FACE IN EVERY CROWD

WE'RE DANCING 'ROUND THE KITCHEN IN THE REFRIGERATOR LIGHT

I READ YOU SHOULD NEVER LEAVE A FIGHT
UNRESOLVED

but no the answer is "treacherous"

every song on this is perfect except the 2 duets/"the lucky one" and none of those are actively bad (k maybe the gary lightbody one)

ikywt/wanegbt/red/starlight just have the most amazing melodies

oh and mother of mercy "begin again" <<<<<<<<<<3

so many good ones, particularly IKYWT and Red, and 22 - I know it's more gauche than her usual stuff but i have a lot of love for its absolute giddy IDGAF-ness

but the mighty "treacherous" trumps all

possibly my fave t-swift song ever (sophie's choice b/w that and "enchanted")

oh "holy ground" is soooo good also

gr8 album basically. obviously.

starlight is the one i've played when in doldrums at work this year. and it has never failed to knock my socks off and put me in the right mood again. i adore nearly every song on this but that got my vote

but the mighty "treacherous" trumps all

possibly my fave t-swift song ever (sophie's choice b/w that and "enchanted")

― monotony, Sunday, September 22, 2013 10:29 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh "holy ground" is soooo good also

gr8 album basically. obviously.

― monotony, Sunday, September 22, 2013 10:30 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Agree with all of this, Monotony you are speaking righteously.

Basically "Treacherous" is my number 1 forever and yes it's a fight to the death with "Enchanted" for the title of finest song in Taylor's discography.

"Holy Ground" is my number 2, then "All Too Well", and then a surprisingly large number of tracks all clustered around an indistinguishable level of greatness ("State of Grace", "Red", "I Knew You Were Trouble", "22", "Begin Again", "I Almost Do", maybe "Starlight").

It seems to me that "Red" has grown in people's estimations since the album came out? A lot of people were down on it at first IIRC.

If I was gonna cast a sympathy vote it would be for "I Almost Do", which seems curiously underrated esp. given it has one of Taylor's most magical, moving, "camera pans out and reveals we're working on a much more expansive and nuanced emotional terrain than previously realised" middle-eights.

1. holy ground
2. wanegbt
3. bonus track demo version of state of grace

feel like most people i know do not agree with me that wanegbt was the best single from this

starlight is the one i've played when in doldrums at work this year. and it has never failed to knock my socks off and put me in the right mood again. i adore nearly every song on this but that got my vote

― making plans for nyquil (outdoor_miner)

^^^ this. I'm glad she never released it as a single. It'll remain a "secret" highlight for fans.

I'm pretty much in sync with Tim. "Holy Ground" would have been my top pick the first few weeks of listening, and "Treacherous" at first just registered as a nice tune with some good lines, but after a while it became the song I wanted to hear again. I think I said this on the Red thread, but "Treacherous" has her best-ever singing imo -- the restrained excitement of the verse/chorus and the explosive desire of the bridge.

"State of Grace" and "I Almost Do" would be my underdog picks. (If Bono's got any sense left, there'll be a U2 cover of "State of Grace" as a bonus track on the new album.)

http://vine.co/v/hveOe3hLJE3

wow i thought i was the only person who would have "enchanted" in their tswift top 3

it has one of Taylor's most magical, moving, "camera pans out and reveals we're working on a much more expansive and nuanced emotional terrain than previously realised" middle-eights.

It occurs to me that this or similar is a feature of nearly all my favourite Taylor tunes.

"State of Grace" is the most overlooked track on this record

Starlight
Holy Ground
Stay Stay Stay

that's all I've kept. The rest I still hear on the radio.

wow i thought i was the only person who would have "enchanted" in their tswift top 3

*raises hand*

this is still "holy ground" btw but everyone otm about "treacherous"

On a whole-of-song basis I would be very tempted to go for "Holy Ground". If I was doling out awards it probably should win "Best Song", but then "Treacherous" would scoop the balance of the prize pool: "Most affecting vocals in a Taylor song"; "Greatest second chorus in a Taylor song"; "Most arresting and perceptive lyrics in a Taylor song" etc.

The fact that Alfred hasn't retained it marks him out as incorrigibly glib and heartless.

all too well

enchanted is definitely top 10 or maybe even top 5, and treacherous is a perfectly serviceable song, but to put the two even in the same circle

man

Imagine Swift songs called:

Incorrigle
Incorrigibly Glib
Heartless

I Knew You Were Incorrigible When You Logged In

This album has so many pleasing little lyrical flourishes, like the shift in "Stay, Stay, Stay" from "I've been loving you for quite some time" to "I'll be loving you for quite some time".

Voted "Red" here over "Begin Again"

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Just noticed how great "All Too Well" is the other day. Wide screen narrative.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Ah, OK, I had no idea "All Too Well" was such a favorite!

I find it annoying that the implied choice (not on ILM per se, just in general) is between caring about all the autobiographical detail and not being invested in the songwriting at all. One of the best aspects of the shift in her songwriting in the last two albums (especially on Evermore) is the sense that that binary is no longer applicable. "Ivy" and "Cowboy Like Me" are two of the very best songs she has ever written, and both clearly have nothing to do with her own life.

I was discussing with Brad a while back all the questions I wish TS would get asked in interviews, basically all of which would dig into her songwriting craft. A big question I had coming out of Evermore is whether she feels like, if she is writing from the POV of a fictional character, her lyrical vocabulary changes. Which of course she would never actually be asked by an interviewer.

She doesn't really do many interviews does she?

I'm not really a fan, but I gained a lot of respect for her when I watched her documentary, which reveals a lot of the songwriting process. I wish there was a documentary just about Max Martin and how he writes for and with people. But he's even more locked down (certainly by choice, probably also by NDA) than she is.

Fwiw, I was at the time disappointed she went with Martin, which seemed to be such an easy, lazy choice. But in retrospect, it's afforded her the success and money to do whatever she wants. Though Speak Now, which she wrote entirely herself, of course already proved she needed no ringers.

Maybe pitchfork knew they couldn't really top Brad's previous review.

That the best you can do? Amateur stuff. Here's how it's done: https://rateyourmusic.com/music-review/nostalghia/taylor-swift/all-too-well-the-short-film/160999757

― imago, Monday, 15 November 2021 10:17 (twelve hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This writer has really interesting/curious taste actually. Their list of hundreds of great albums has prompted me to finally check out Koopsta Knicca's 'Devil's Playground: Underground Solo'.

Last weekend I discussed with a friend the Sinatra-U2 post-show hangout session where to their surprise he band realized no one much talked to the old man about music. Apparently they delighted him asking those questions. He went into detail explaining Gene Krupa's drum sound, oboes vs bassoons, etc.

I've wanted booklength interviews with Madonna, Janet Jackson, and Taylor Swift like what Zollo did with Tom Petty.

Yeah, if there is one lesson to be learned from that recent Paul McCartney Rick Rubin show it's that even Paul McCartney has a lot more to reveal when asked the right questions.

I think it's tough for some of these superstars to navigate, because in many ways their privacy is a form of currency.

Also: how many journalists want to ask those questions?

I've cited these comments by bassist-to-the-stars Guy Pratt about Madonna's control during the "Like a Prayer" sessions:

"Jonathan, do less of the high-hat in the middle eight, and more of a fill towards the end. Guy, I want duck eggs [semibreves] on the end, and Chester, bring in your guitar on the second verse."

This writer has really interesting/curious taste actually. Their list of hundreds of great albums has prompted me to finally check out Koopsta Knicca's 'Devil's Playground: Underground Solo'.

― Tim F, Monday, 15 November 2021 22:34 (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I may seem antagonistic but this writer is someone I actually 'follow' on RYM owing to a superlative Richard Dawson review, and I shan't dismiss their Taytay raptures even if I mock them semi-fondly

As ever, I will actually listen to the new Swift and begrudgingly accept a measure of merit, even as I abhor the discourse. I really wish she wasn't a marketing genius

xxxpost - The problem is the journalists not the interviewees I think - none of the questions I'd want to ask would really touch on private lives.

If anything, Taylor typically disappoints on this front, because she basically undersells her own craft by offering simplified explanations ready for consumption by the broadest cross-section of fans possible.

Like, "Mirrorball" strikes me a really interesting dissection of the interrelationship between imposter syndrome and an anxious desire for public approval, but according to Taylor in the Long Pond Sessions it's about... not being able to tour.

Also making it clear that I only see Tim F as antagonist insofar as he consistently and eloquently speaks in favour of that which I halt at, and he is clearly a brilliant cornerstone of this entire website and its ethos. But then I am currently drunk, and would not admit so otherwise. EOYs without a Tim influence would not exist

I am *very* drunk. The beer was Belgian, and cheap

Oh god I'm interrupting. Best actually bloody listen to it

Don't many, if not most, artists favor basic answers to "What's that song about?," rather than go into a detailed literary analysis of their own lyrics?

I know some interviewers are skilled at insightful interviews with songwriters, but I think those results tend to be rare (on both ends)...

That Flanagan book is as terrific as Zollo's own book.

Don't many, if not most, artists favor basic answers to "What's that song about?," rather than go into a detailed literary analysis of their own lyrics?

I know some interviewers are skilled at insightful interviews with songwriters, but I think those results tend to be rare (on both ends)...

― heterologous booster (morrisp), Monday, 15 November 2021 23:05 (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yep - it's not really surprising, especially absent something asking really specific questions.

(and it's all good imago, enjoy the beer)

It's not so much just what each song is about, it's the nuts and bolts of it, the arrangement, the decisions made, the tempo picked, the previous iterations. All that stuff is super interesting and not always revealed. Like all those versions of Like a Rolling Stone that were eventually released. They nail the final version on the second or third take, but then just kept going, including that one version in waltz time. What made them realize the keeper was the keeper? In Taylor's case, I suppose I'd want to know her editing and refinement process, how different the final versions are from their origins. Stuff like that. Angles like this are why publications like Tape Op are invaluable. Where else are producers going to be interviewed about the tricks of the trade? Or even behind the scenes stuff. They've been witness to countless pivotal moments of history, but rarely is their opinion or experience the center of the discourse, and they have a lot to say. Same with session dudes: God only knows the stuff that Jim Keltner has seen, but where is that interview going to run besides Modern Drummer?

God only knows

I bet there are a few extant interviews concerning the recording of this song!

hosted by the right people, this general topic could make for an incredible podcast that surely (?) enough people would listen to

i realize i should want to read these conversations, but y'know ...

If that young man has Taylor’s scarf he should return it.

— Dionne Warwick (@dionnewarwick) November 15, 2021

lmao read the 1 star reviews on this

https://www.target.com/p/taylor-swift-red-taylor-39-s-version-target-exclusive-vinyl-4-lp/-/A-84294181

looool

Red (Jake's Version)

So it’s a 4LP set mastered at 45 rpm, when it could have(?) fit on 2 LPs at 33? Is that a sound quality thing, or a nefarious plot to ring up 2x the number of “discs” sold(?)

that's typically a sound quality thing i think?

I assume it's sound quality + they could fit the 16 album tracks on two discs and the bonus tracks on the other two. They would have needed 3 LP's anyway at 33, because it's over 2 hours long.

Man, I bet that vinyl sounds awesome

(when played at 45, lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ujcUumou9c

idk from experience i do not think taylor swift's team cares about vinyl pressing

the records of hers i have on vinyl sound extremely not awesome

And you would hide away and find your peace of mind
With some indie record that's pressed much better than mine

Well they sure care about CD sound quality (have I mentioned it sounds awesome?)

It occurred to me today that even after hearing, as ambience, "Blank Check" and "Wildest Dreams" and so on some thousands of times over the past seven years, I still so strongly associate Taylor with "You Belong With Me" and "Love Story" and "Fifteen" and all of Speak Now

And yet, "We Are Never Getting Back Together" is chronologically, at this point, mid-period-- six years after her debut, nine years ago.

"Blank Check" --> "Blank Space"? Ha ha (I like yr title, tho)

Ha lol whoops. I never listened to 1989 through Lover for pleasure, just research I guess

https://www.stereogum.com/2167771/taylor-swift-iheartradio-taylors-version/news/

“Whenever Taylor re-records a new track, we immediately replace the old versions. Our stations will always deliver songs that artists are eager to share and fans want to hear,” said Tom Poleman, Chief Programming Officer for iHeartMedia. “Listeners have made it known that they cannot wait to hear Taylor’s Version of each track. We are thrilled to provide a platform to share those with them, as well as the stories behind the songs from Taylor herself.”

She and iHeartRadio are pretty sympatico.

I find it annoying that the implied choice (not on ILM per se, just in general) is between caring about all the autobiographical detail and not being invested in the songwriting at all. One of the best aspects of the shift in her songwriting in the last two albums (especially on Evermore) is the sense that that binary is no longer applicable. "Ivy" and "Cowboy Like Me" are two of the very best songs she has ever written, and both clearly have nothing to do with her own life.

I was discussing with Brad a while back all the questions I wish TS would get asked in interviews, basically all of which would dig into her songwriting craft. A big question I had coming out of Evermore is whether she feels like, if she is writing from the POV of a fictional character, her lyrical vocabulary changes. Which of course she would never actually be asked by an interviewer.

― Tim F, Monday, November 15, 2021 4:10 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

"Ronan" may be the saddest song I've ever heard.

it's been pretty funny/cute seeing my 12yo niece "discover" Taylor Swift

don't think she was really into music much before this

https://www.twitter.com/bloodbuzz/status/1460047771537494018

"Holy Ground" should've done better.

Agreed, but I feel like the really underrated deep cut on this album is “I Almost Do”, which I think is also secretly really sharp songwriting.

'state of grace' gotta be one of the most high energy pop album openers ever. always gets me revved. a little overlooked.

...only to be followed by such a clanger...

You don’t like the title track(?)

^ my vote in this poll, i believe