"Rock did not outsell jazz until 1973." What's the truth?

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I was reading through a Steely Dan thread last night when I came across this claim about halfway down the page:

Almost all North American musicians that came out in the late 60's and 70's were influenced by Jazz in some way or another. This is because, like most human beings, they heard their PARENTS music first. Rock n Roll did not outsell Jazz until 1973. So guess what they all heard? (...)

― Jason Tucker, Sunday, April 16, 2006 5:34

I've never read anything about this before, but it intrigued me. 1973 seems fairly late in the "rock era" for rock to finally overtake jazz in the sales arena. Can anyone corroborate this claim or provide any insight?

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 12:21 (eleven years ago)

That's a hell of a claim, and fascinating if it's true. I assume it could only remotely be close to being true in the States.

I can still taste the Taboo in my mouth when I hear those songs (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 21 October 2013 12:37 (eleven years ago)

if jazz includes sinatra and all the crooners and herb alpert and all the easy listening jazz instrumentalists, then yes, maybe this claim might be true?

gotta lol geir (NickB), Monday, 21 October 2013 12:43 (eleven years ago)

Maybe if this was from an albums perspective?

how's life, Monday, 21 October 2013 12:47 (eleven years ago)

Yeah, it's gotta include crooners, and not be about singles.

I can still taste the Taboo in my mouth when I hear those songs (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 21 October 2013 12:54 (eleven years ago)

I thought that including Sinatra & co would boost the numbers, but it's still quite a surprising revelation if true. Circa 1968 I could understand, but 1973 was the era of glam and funk... and jazz's reign must have seemed a very long time ago by then.

Were US sales figures reliable/even being collected for genres at all back then?

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:03 (eleven years ago)

I would have thought the really big selling albums - pre 1973 - would be musicals and soundtracks not jazz

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:10 (eleven years ago)

Yer South Pacifics/ Sound of Musics

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:10 (eleven years ago)

Yeah, lots of those pre-1970 in the UK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_of_the_1970s_in_the_United_Kingdom

gotta lol geir (NickB), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:11 (eleven years ago)

Wrong fucking link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums_by_year_in_the_United_Kingdom

gotta lol geir (NickB), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:11 (eleven years ago)

West Side Story! I suppose that has its jazzy moments.

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:15 (eleven years ago)

i'm trying to think of a jazz album that has sold a million copies and all i can think of is kind of blue. and that's over decades.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:25 (eleven years ago)

Interesting to note that the soundtracks don't really get dislodged for good until 1968. I still see old vinyl copies of South Pacific and The Sound of Music everywhere.

In comparison, the US overthrows soundtracks by 1966. Not that this means much, as I'm sure they continued to sell in considerable quantities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best-selling_albums_by_year_in_the_United_States

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:27 (eleven years ago)

Scott: Head Hunters?

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:28 (eleven years ago)

Not really pure jazz though.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:28 (eleven years ago)

most jazz albums are considered huge if they sell over, like, 20 thousand copies. jazz was a loss leader for a lot of labels in the 50's and 60's. unless you were brubeck or louis armstrong or ella. swing era had big sales though. glenn miller. benny goodman. but that was singles.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:30 (eleven years ago)

the 70's is actually when sales got bigger for jazz albums because rock fans bought the records! fusion. yeah, herbie, weather report. they sold a lot of records.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:33 (eleven years ago)

Can't find sales figures for it, but for a long time, maybe up until Bitches Brew, Porgy & Bess was Miles' best-selling record. I guess it's not inconceivable that it's hit a million copies by now.

But yeah, Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew are the only ones I can think of offhand. I don't think A Love Supreme has even sold a million yet.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:34 (eleven years ago)

coltrane in the 60's was just a blip compared to sales of dave clark five or herman's hermits or whoever. louis armstrong was the best-selling jazz artist of the 60's. probably. don't quote me on that.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:37 (eleven years ago)

1973: The Year Rock Broke

I got the glares, the mutterings, the snarls (President Keyes), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:38 (eleven years ago)

Circa 1968 I could understand, but 1973 was the era of glam and funk

Glam never sold much in the US did it?

lorde willin' (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:39 (eleven years ago)

... not sure funk did either

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:40 (eleven years ago)

the big reason why labels put out so much jazz - big non-jazz labels - is because they were mostly really cheap to make. take a day or two to record. didn't pay the musicians much. something for their catalog. they got street cred. if they hit with some bossa nova novelty then hey even better. they had a small built-in audience. guaranteed to sell a certain number.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:40 (eleven years ago)

True re: Coltrane. Interestingly, though, he made more money in the 60s than the Who did. Like, exponentially more. But then, he started earlier, and didn't destroy his saxophone every night.

xp

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:42 (eleven years ago)

pretty sure just elvis alone outsold most jazz released in the 50's. just a guess though! i'm not really a big numbers kinda guy.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:42 (eleven years ago)

they were mostly really cheap to make. take a day or two to record.

Yeah and they can sure churn them out, those jazzers

Tommy McTommy (Tom D.), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:42 (eleven years ago)

xxxxpost: it was more an aesthetic portrayal of what was new and current in the two biggest Western markets: glam in the UK and soul/funk in the US. I might be wrong, but Stevie Wonder and Marvin Gaye were among the big sellers of the time, surely? Along with Elton John and Led Zeppelin of course, so it's quite a mix.

Either way, my point was to illustrate how archaic jazz must have seemed by that time.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:43 (eleven years ago)

a lot of these went gold or platinum in the 90's.

http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Rifugium/best_selling_jazz_albums_of_all_time__riaa___or_theres_no_money_in_jazz/

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:46 (eleven years ago)

I dunno, I think older boomers, who might've dug Sgt. Pepper but found the rest of "rock" immature, thought Zep was for dirtbag stoner kids, and instead bought Weather Report or Herbie records.

xp

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:47 (eleven years ago)

Like I said, if you include vocal jazz and the more easy listening stuff, Sinatra blows sales for Miles et al out of the water. A Man and His Music went platinum in the US, so did Strangers in the Night. Duets went 3 x platinum!

gotta lol geir (NickB), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:48 (eleven years ago)

Also, sales for individual albums is one thing, but someone like Duke Ellington, who had a shit-ton of albums and reissues, surely has sold at least a million total.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:50 (eleven years ago)

Charles Lloyd's Forest Flower went platinum in the '60s.

Humorist (horse) (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:53 (eleven years ago)

I guess it also depends on your definition of jazz, as has been stated above. If you consider easy-listening pop of the era to be jazz because of the instrumentation, then you can add Herb Alper & The Tijuana Brass to boost the numbers; they were certainly huge in the mid 60s.

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:53 (eleven years ago)

Herb Alpert*

arctic mindbath (President of the People's Republic of Antarctica), Monday, 21 October 2013 13:56 (eleven years ago)

al hirt. pete fountain.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 13:57 (eleven years ago)

I'm wondering if the title claim total record sales in history.

It sounds totally plausible that, by 1973, fifteen years worth of rock vinyl had sold as much as sixty-odd years of jazz vinyl/shellac/wax combined.

Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:01 (eleven years ago)

First part of that wasn't a sentence but you get my point

Sir Lord Baltimora (Myonga Vön Bontee), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:04 (eleven years ago)

The problem is, accounting was sketchy at best; labels in the 70s would count records shipped as records sold ("Who gold in one day!" = MCA shipped half a million copies of Quadrophenia on release day). And who even knows how accurate the accounting was pre-50s.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:06 (eleven years ago)

the biggest jazz sales were in the 40's. that was pretty much the last decade that jazz ruled. glenn miller sold millions of singles.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 14:07 (eleven years ago)

i mean if we are talking jazz jazz.

scott seward, Monday, 21 October 2013 14:07 (eleven years ago)

maybe we're talking about number of souls sold by musicians

I got the glares, the mutterings, the snarls (President Keyes), Monday, 21 October 2013 14:13 (eleven years ago)


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