Article Response: Hardcore

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

You can answer it now! This is I think the first time I've published anything on music I know absolutely nothing at all about but I found it interesting reading anyway.

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 16:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Really great article, no question of it. Hurrah for Jess! :-) It reminded me why I loved the VSS and made me wonder if there really was something to NOU after all. But what's all this about glam rock tedium from San Diego? Speedo's the glammiest rock star from SD ever and he kicks ass. ;-)

For me, the best thing about the article is the connection to other musical approaches and styles that seem to have more currency at the moment in terms of critical approval. Embrace what you don't know yet, Tom! We'll make an Antioch Arrow fan out of you. ;-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 16:17 (twenty-three years ago)

This is a time of hardcore that usually gets ignored, and it's seriously and well written. In all seriousness though: I really don't think that we (Hated) did ANYTHING that Hüsker Dü hadn't done before and better -- I think that most of the late 80s bands were very concious of what had gone before, and just tried to do what we liked ourselves.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 16:23 (twenty-three years ago)

i'm just atoning for my indie guilt, obv.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:03 (twenty-three years ago)

wait, there was a hardcore band called King Crimson?

― dleone (dleone), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:13 (twenty-three years ago)

nothing gets by this guy.

come on you slags! this could be the last time freaky trigger publishes something you have any interest in whatsoever!!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:16 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought the King Crimson reference was an oblique riff on Unrest.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:23 (twenty-three years ago)

not a bad list... it's hard to draw a circle in the sand around some things though, so a few crucial things to me were left out. but what can you do?

computer cougar's stuff has been released by gern blandsten by the way... it's readily available.

― msp, Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:32 (twenty-three years ago)

nothing gets by this guy

dude!

― dleone (dleone), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:35 (twenty-three years ago)

"fostering enmity between himself and his readers since 2001."

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:38 (twenty-three years ago)

(haha sorry dom, i really did mean that more playfully than it probably came off.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:38 (twenty-three years ago)

That was my 1997!

― Kris (aqueduct), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Is that Computer Cougar CD the demo, or newer stuff, or the demo stuff re-recorded? It doesn't sound 1/100th as great as the propoganda lead me to believe (and certainly nothing like the description Jess offers).

― David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, I was more miffed by the notion that someone as persnickety as Robert Fripp could be American.

― dleone (dleone), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 17:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Ahh, screw you Ewing!! :)

― david h (david h), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 18:03 (twenty-three years ago)

I was just listening to and admiring Lync the other day, and I think Jess has now retroactively given me his memories.

I liked the louisville axis of hardcore which tilted into post rock the best. Ruby Falls is desperately underrated, especially the "What She Does" EP. There's definately a case for Rodan as hardcore. Also the first Slint LP. Avail makes me sick.

Also, what about Lungfish?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 18:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, it was nice to see the Lync inclusion even though they definitely weren't a 'hardcore' band, they were part of the same scene and the fanbases were definitely crossed.

I can understand the omission of Slint and derivatives thereof, and the same with Fugazi--everyone talks about them already so there's no need to write more about them.

I kind of wonder about the omission of some bands I personally am in love with (Portraits of Past, Policy of 3, et al.) but that's personal taste for you.

(Fuck the Locust, btw.)

― Ian Johnson (orion), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 18:44 (twenty-three years ago)

great overview. i would of thrown in Rye Coalition's Hee Saw Duh Kaet. That was the album that introduced me to the whole Gern Blandsten line up, which led to Heroine, Locust, etc etc. Also check out the Richmond comp The ABC's Of Punk. A really good east coast hardcore sampler.

― Brock K. (Brock K.), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 19:54 (twenty-three years ago)

David H - it's all part of my master plan, worry not grasshopper!

― Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 20:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You're taking a pretty broad view of hardcore, which i always thought pretty much ended in the early/mid 90's. That is, it sort of broke up into a bunch of sub-genres and stopped being hardcore in the old sense (like you mentioned, grind, keyboards, etc). Born Against may have been the last great truly hardcore band though... thinking about it actually, hardcore is a pretty difiicult genre to define. I mean, is it just about the sound or did a band have to be part of a "scene" or have a certain political viewpoint to be hardcore? I mean, it's hard to pin down. BA were certinaly hardcore, but say 7 Seconds, they sometimes seemed hardcore, they were definitely scenesters, but they pretty much played pop songs (but they definitely prefigured the "positive" and defiant tone of straightedge, even though they got way into drugs). The straightedge bands themselves sounded like hardcore, but there seemed to be a world of difference between them and original hardcore punk like say the Dead Kennedys. Anyway, subgenres and all that stuff. Good article.

― g (graysonlane), Wednesday, 16 October 2002 20:13 (twenty-three years ago)

!!!

well shit, i thought it'd be longer, but still... nice (i'd have chosen a proper clikitat ikatowi LP too!) [speaking of: Jess notes Mario's involvement in the sonic departure The Black Heart Procession... how about Toby going from Struggle to TBHP?]

between msp and jack cole at the PRL and jess' emo-guilt... it's good to have my hearing back. fourfa is a good reference too... although EVERYONE does seem to identify there are some blurry lines here and there in terms of defining sounds/genres/sub-genres... it would be cool to compile a lot of these opinions (esp. with regard to the more obscure releases). maybe there is? point me the way.

http://www.goldstandardlabs.com/flyers%20larger%20image/flier_1.30.94.gif

^_^ kitty chan!

― gygax!, Wednesday, 16 October 2002 23:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Great piece. If you come up with that list of favorites, please post that too.

― Pete Scholtes, Thursday, 17 October 2002 00:05 (twenty-three years ago)

he's like so emo.

― keith (keithmcl), Thursday, 17 October 2002 00:11 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't really think of anything that's "obviously" missing from Jess's list... Grrrrreat job, ma friend.

As for San Diego what-the-fucks, how about members of Constantine Sankhati later forming Tristeza?

In a strange way, I think a "hardcore" history addendum is currently being set up as we speak: thanks to Ex Models, The Seconds, Hella, Teen Chthulu, Pink & Brown (and every gazillion spin-off band John has fleshed out in the past two days), Oxes, Arab on Radar, etc.

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 17 October 2002 00:50 (twenty-three years ago)

hey is this the weird america uh wotsisname is always talking about?

(great article etc etc both for the music & er as a history of something I didn't know existed (this may be america)) (actually those might not be seperate)

― Ess Kay (esskay), Thursday, 17 October 2002 01:20 (twenty-three years ago)

90's hardcore

way good namedrops

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 17 October 2002 02:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Actually, I finally came up with someone that may be "obviously" missing!..... Unwound

But even in mind, I'd understand their exclusion from the article... similar to Slint, Fugazi, etc.

― donut bitch (donut), Thursday, 17 October 2002 02:45 (twenty-three years ago)

unwound got dropped at the last minute because a. i couldn't decide on a record (the imp of the perverse wanted to go with the live 12" on loveletter) and b. i wasn't quite sure how to tie them in. (in retrospect i would have chosen repetition.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Thursday, 17 October 2002 03:11 (twenty-three years ago)

I just picked up Repetition the other day and it is fucking amazing. But I think the 7"s on TMU and Gravity are som of the better stuff.

― Jonathan Williams (ex machina), Thursday, 17 October 2002 03:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Didn't enjoy the beginning too much, but the album guide was well-done. Thanks for that.

― wl (wl), Thursday, 17 October 2002 05:01 (twenty-three years ago)

Damn! I thought this was gonna be about 'ardkore...gutted.

― Charlie (Charlie), Thursday, 17 October 2002 05:10 (twenty-three years ago)

As much as I love a lot of this music (being from Providence it's sort of mandatory to love it), I wouldn't really call it hardcore. The scenes seem particularly separated as well--the hardcore kids don't hang out with the RISD student/grad 'noise' kids. There are very few bands that can draw a real crossover audience--Lightning Bolt being the best example, but when The Flying Luttenbachers, Arab on Radar, Pink & Brown, X27 and USA Is A Monster all played a little under a year ago, there wasn't anyone there who had been at the Spirit of Versailles/Caligari show a few nights previous.

Maybe this is a local schism and not a national one, but I don't think the new school noise-based bands will ever gain much acceptance in the hardcore scene.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Thursday, 17 October 2002 23:44 (twenty-three years ago)

The article is great, but I was reading it with mixed emotions. From his best album of the 90s list I knew Jess likes stuff like Lungfish, Fugazi, Don Caballero and expected he took the look into that direction. Of course I felt very intrigued when realizes I’ve heard only few bands he mentioned ( Born Against, Locust, NOU and melt Banana) and, again, the bastard makes me want to find out more.But for me hardcore meant something else.
I’ ve never been hc kid (too polite for that), but I have my phase between 17-19. What we used to call hc then was anything form the Waashington DC / noise / minimal rock axis. I loved my Soulside, Jawbox, Lungfish, but also Codeine and Slint or Rapeman., Tar, Distorted Pony, Don Caballero.... Remember that I’ve never considered this music as ugly – it seemed so…naked, pure, non-cynical, non-rockist in comparison to grunge and the Seattle brigade. ( no cincidence I find some of this emotions later in UR or jungle).
Interesting that Jess writes hc get him into Swans, post-punk, No New York – in my case it was opposite order (not that I knew The Swans discography before I turned 17, but I must have READ about them, at least ;)) - hc bands listed these influences in the interviews so they were Ok for me. HC was also much easier to explore as I’ve got a few older friends with great record collections and many of the bands (from Dischord and, well ... AmRep) actually did play in my hometown in Poland.
(so the title of Born Against song is no coincidence, though as I know hc bands DO have the soundchecks in Poland now – my younger brother told me). I stopped to follow the wave when I started buying British press and finally get into techno, jungle, IDM and pop. But still I‘ ve got many friend form these times.
Hard core – be it Bad Brains / Minor Threat, D.R.I / Napalm Death, Jess’s pantheon, early rave / jungle(don’t count the NYC socrealismj of Biohazard, Madball as hc) -, usually wants to emphasise (starting with the the name of a genre) its extremity, but Jess is right saying that what constitutes the scene for a longer time are its anti-canonical, non-dogmatic representatives. For me hc was never a way of life , the way of thinking rather, and in spite of its strict subcultural codes MY HARDCORE, the openess of its attitude, help me to find pleasure and innovation in The Neptunes or Dre productions now. ( I’m smart, self-conscious guy, you see ;) )
Ho, ho – it is my first long post for ILX and luckily, even if you get bored by my confessions, you can always take the piss out of my half British / half Polish grammar. ;)
I love you too.

― luke (luke), Friday, 18 October 2002 09:04 (twenty-three years ago)

And how great Tom published it in Freaky Trigger. Hats off!

― luke (luke), Friday, 18 October 2002 09:07 (twenty-three years ago)

Tom - what's a 'Trumph' (sic)?

― david h (david h), Friday, 18 October 2002 09:40 (twenty-three years ago)

Lady if.

― Tom (Groke), Friday, 18 October 2002 12:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Hurrah for Luke! Everyone starts with a long post somewhere, I think. :-) Welcome!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 October 2002 14:45 (twenty-three years ago)

wot happened to assuck? (especially their "real" [read: political] incarnation as opposed to their "comedic" [read: toilet grind] early stuff.)

― tony bleach (blackshoeswhitesocks), Friday, 18 October 2002 14:55 (twenty-three years ago)

nice one Jess! can you recommend a C90 out of this +others (one-offs, etc)?

― Paul (scifisoul), Friday, 18 October 2002 15:17 (twenty-three years ago)

i find it funny that most of the criticism the article has gotten (not on ilm so much as elsewhere) has somehow completely missed the fact that the subtitle of the piece was "my hardcore 90s". also, the expected: "man, he's not down with the scene anymore." well, no shit! i thought i made that fairly clear at the beginning. i mean, i suppose i could write a similar piece about jungle and have big dappa come in or something...

paul: i made a tape for someone a year or two ago when i was unloading my vinyl. if i still have a copy of it, i'll post the tracklist here later.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 October 2002 15:55 (twenty-three years ago)

hippity hop hop... thats the sound of jess on the musical highway. exit hardcore. exit jungle. what's next, exit hip hop? I'm all ears when you're ready for the serious real deal, yo.

saul

― saul williams, Friday, 18 October 2002 19:06 (twenty-three years ago)

where im from those bands are what emo really was. yeah not to get bent all over a name of a genre of music but growing up during the 90s in new jersey if you said you were into emo, those are the bands youd be into. (as i was), id add to the list the merel LP, the native nod seven inches, pretty much every record on gern blandsten (east coast) and gravity (west coast) not to forget the midwest bands like indian summer, constantine sankathi, etc. i personally feel the bands you mentioned cant be classified as being hardcore because i think they broke all the rules laid down by the hardcore scene. and as for calling the emo. well im pretty sure they wouldnt like to be cast in the light either.

when i think of hardcore i think of NYC, sick of it all, youth of today, gorilla biscuits, warzone, or early dischord bands like minor threat. dag nasty. unbroken (being of the only good west coast hardcore bands) ehhhhhh

― g.winogrand (g.winogrand), Friday, 18 October 2002 19:27 (twenty-three years ago)

this piece is one of the best i've read in ages. i know just about none of the bands (i'd heard of about 2), but it was fascinating reading. more like this please!

two things occurred to me after reading.

1. i wonder if someone could do a similar thing for those nyc late 80s bands like bulletts for pussy and drunks with guns.

2. i'm quite interested in the hardcore-->postrock thing (tristeza was mentioned above), but cerberus shoal and stuff too

― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 23 October 2002 09:18 (twenty-three years ago)

four months pass...

I only just read this - oops. REALLY Nice work, Jess. Never really thought of Rye Coalition as hardcore, though. Certainly not these days...

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Monday, 17 March 2003 15:49 (twenty-two years ago)

thenks guys. yeah, the rye coalition are much more "bloozey rawk" (pass the sick bag) these days, but that first 7" and the rye/karp split 12" are very much prog-emo-hardcore stuff.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 17 March 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

two years pass...

I really enjoyed this piece too.

I'm feelin' anal so the records that defined 90's hardcore for me (i lost interest around '96 or '97 save the odd new releases from Fugazi, Infest, Converge and Wrangler Brutes) would be :

Inside Out-no spiritual surrender.ep.

Burn-ep.

Fugazi-repeater.lp.

Neanderthal-fighting music.7".

Rorschach-needlepack.7".

Born Against-9 patriotic hymns..lp.

Infest-mankind.7".

Drive Like Jehu-7".

No Comment-downsided.7".

Hell No-skin job.lp.

Crossed Out/Man Is The Bastard-split.7".

Native Nod-bread.7".

Indian Summer-7".

Heroin-12".

Universal Order Of Armageddon-12".

Unwound-new plastic ideas.lp.

Swing Kids-7".

Hoover-lurid traversal of route 7.lp.

Deadguy-fixation on a coworker.ep.

Texas Is The Reason-7".

Worst Case Scenario-first.7".

Lungfish-indivisible.lp.

Around '97 hardcore and it's offshoots got stale for me (as did most rock, to be truthful) and i delved deeper into hip hop (thus opening me up to funk, soul, jazz). I was always into it anyway and, say, "only built 4 cuban linx" always got equal time on my stereo next to "red medicine" in '95, but i started getting into buying rap 12"s by people like less obvious people like DITC, Godfather Don, Street Smartz, Money Boss Players and the early M.F Doom 12"s on Fondle 'Em as well as the obvious albums like "life after death", "the war report", "stone crazy" by Beatnuts etc that everyone was checking for and that took up 70% of my record buying cash. Looking back the whole street/indie explosion of late 90s with tons of great 12"s to buy each month was exactly the same as and replaced the hardcore/emo/grind explosion of 7"s of the early-mid 90s for me. Both got ran into the ground after a few years due to anybody being able to make a record though.

Anyway, excellent article. There should be more articles on hardcore.

― Ellis, Sunday, 17 July 2005 10:01 (twenty years ago)

Add Will Haven-el diablo.lp to the tailend of the list too.

― Ellis, Sunday, 17 July 2005 10:35 (twenty years ago)

I guess it's because of the complete inseperability from zine culture, and general distaste for/distrust of mainstream media, that non-specific articles like this are sort of looked down on from HC types. Which is a shame, really

― DJ Mencap0))), Sunday, 17 July 2005 11:00 (twenty years ago)

haha yeah i got a bunch of shit for this from some MRR dudes on a message board, apparently. ("what's with all the arty bullshit??")

i have been listening to a lot of this stuff again lately.

― strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 17 July 2005 12:10 (twenty years ago)

Since i've been going back and listening to a lot of old hardcore from my yout' over the past 6 months or so i've been looking for a decent hardcore mesaage board but the two or three i found are retarded and read like a HeartattaCk letters page circa 1995. I didn't bother to register.

Looking back, though, Gravity was such a very mediocre label apart from Heroin, the John Henry West 7", the Born Against/U.O.A split + the U.O.A 12" plus the 7"s by Unwound and Huggy Bear.

― Ellis, Sunday, 17 July 2005 12:48 (twenty years ago)

i can't believe heartattack is still going! i mean, i can. but jesus.

― strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 17 July 2005 12:49 (twenty years ago)

i really need to buy a new turntable. all these gorgeous looking records are just sitting here unplayable.

my unwound 7" seems to have been splashed with coffee at some point.

― strng hlkngtn, Sunday, 17 July 2005 12:52 (twenty years ago)

Haha, i know what you mean about HaC. I can't even imagine what sort of nonsense (musically and culturally) is discussed in there these days.

I really wish i'd kept the early issues, though. First couple of issues blew me away at the time.

I like the part about Infest in yer piece the best. Very on point. Gym Teacher Hardcore is a great term. I dream someone will one day write a 10,000 word piece on Infest.

― Ellis, Sunday, 17 July 2005 13:34 (twenty years ago)

i can't believe heartattack is still going! i mean, i can. but jesus.

They still have the thing where they won't review a record if it has a barcode, yeah? And they still seem to have no trouble having hundreds of fucking reviews in each issue. It's like, you can drift away from a scene or whatever, assume it fizzled out and then you turn around and there are still more bands and records than anyone has time to listen to

― DJ Mencap0))), Sunday, 17 July 2005 18:50 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.