Doors v Velvet Underground (or, Celebration of the Lizard!)

f) In his singing mannerisms, LR imitated Dylan, whereas JM took after Frank Sinatra. Again, JM wins.

sorry can you clarify this. the first line is abt bands on diff drugs and then you pull this connection to improv out of the blue...

Even if I were to concede that JM is better than Lou, there's no way any one of the other Doors is better than the other Velvets. I don't think very highly of ol' Jim, tho.

Did Lou really say that? It's hilarious.

oh OK thanks. its just me speed reading things again.

TIE.

The Doors were members of the acid rock scene
The Velvet Underground invented a scene, of which they were the only members for 20 years.

Advantage: VU.

there's nothing wrong with 'acid rock'.

Momus knows abt subversion...

Doors: can be read as an inferior version of the Animals.
Velvets: can be read as a superior version of the Music Machine (or the Jive Five).
Advantage: Velvets.

Doors: begat really bad art rock (Patti Smith, Stranglers).
Velvets: begat really good art rock (Modern Lovers, Sex Pistols).
Advantage: Velvets.

Lou Reed: turned into a big asshole.
Jim Morrison: always a big asshole.
Advantage: Velvets.

Velvets: hated Frank Zappa.
Doors: anything you want to say about them.
Advantage: Velvets.

Long answer: If the (basically) wrong-headed self-consciousness in rock that led to prog began in the late sixties with psychedelia, then surely the more fruitful line of self-consciousness (embracing minimalism and eschewing technique) that led to punk began around the same time with the Velvet Underground.

Short answer: If you accept that the Velvets begat the Modern Lovers, then they automatically beget the Sex Pistols too, Jonathan Richman being one of the few rock acts the Pistols actually owned up to liking/being influenced by.

I know most people would say JM, but in these responsible days when being a drunken idiot is frowned upon, let's ponder what LR said to Lester Bangs about drugs (I borrowed Psychotic Reactions from the library the other day):

"Desoxyn is 15 milligrams of pure methamphetamine hydrochloride with some cake poaste to keep it together... You're a good example of why speed freaks have bad names... You don't know what you're doing, you haven't done any research... Even if you weren't poor you wouldn't know what you were buying anyway. You wouldn't know how to weigh it, you don't know your metabolism, you don't know your sleeping quotient, you don't know when to eat and not to eat, you don't know about electricity... It has to do with electricity and the cell structure"

I assume this means LR did know all this stuff. So LB & JM are in the same DEAD camp of 'fuck it, let's get wasted', while LR seems like a mad scientist doing carefully prepared and researched experiments on himself. I think that's pretty cool.

Also, does the quesiton of Reed's (totally inconsistent but cool because crazy) & Cale's solo careers vs post-JM Doors count? If so, advantage VU again.

Also, Lou Reed hated a lot of music from his era, especially Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Airplane-type bands. But then, who DOESNT hate them?

Haha John Cale produced debut albums of both the Modern Lovers and Patti Smith. Also the debut of The Stooges which "begat" the Stranglers.

Also the velvets only "embraced minamalism and eschewed technique" on the crazy-upside-down-world, not our world. John Cale was clasically trained, and Sister Ray is anything but minimalist. Not to mention the delicate work on the s/t album or pop-guitar showboating of Loaded.

The velvets were the Vice magazine to the doors' Maxim to the who's playboy to the beatles' readers digest.

Also, JM fucked Lou Reed's girl.

the modern lovers linkage flies better, as a claimed "influence" (ie setting aside my standard-issue rant about the uselessness of this critical standby, and also ignoring lydon's announced debt to the somewhat non-minimalist peter hammill, say): musically of course the pistols actually SOUND a lot more like slade and roxy music

Also Manzanera worked with X, no? Which means I guess that The Doors "begat" X "begat" countrypunk "begat" The Gun Club.

VU "begat" Ducks Deluxe turned into Motorhead.

And since when does "begat" = "produced the debut album of"? Or why would eschewing technique preclude delicacy?

also the bibilical term "covered" takes on a grebt new meaning...

Advantage: LR

JM: "(screaming) You cannot petition the Lord with Prayer." Hmm, a little jejune perhaps but an interesting proposition.
LR: "Watch that speedfreak, watch that speedfreak, gonna shoot up every night of the week." No Lou - bad idea.

Advantage: JM

JM: Jammed with Hendrix by screaming "Grab a girl - fuck her up the arse," incessantly into the mic.
LR: Made Metal Machine Music.

Advantage: JM, by a shade.

JM: Fucked a pool table.
LR: Agreed to the producer adding the taped screams of his children after he told them mummy was dead to the mix of Berlin.

Advantage: LR.