Rolling Music Theory Thread

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Thanks. Wow, some of those texts kind of pricey. Is there one that is past its first blush and gone to Dover?

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:32 (ten years ago) link

I don't know what that question means but, yeah, I was thinking that maybe you could check those out from a library if they are available. Sarnecki is affordable (and v good imo) but I don't know if that one is available in the US.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:41 (ten years ago) link

Thanks. Sorry. In math and science, textbooks from a few generations ago are available at quite cheap prices from Dover Publications and are often just as useful as the shiny new official books.

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:48 (ten years ago) link

I can't talk about this any more! Fundamentally Sund4r we're not going to ever agree because your paycheque involves teaching a course in counterpoint and my paycheque involves turning around an orchestral arrangement in four hours or less

poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:12 (ten years ago) link

Yep.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:23 (ten years ago) link

(although it's kind of interesting that those two things would put us at odds on this)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:24 (ten years ago) link

It's not that I don't think that shit is interesting, obv I do. I guess... the reason I'm using phrases like "kicking against that form of pedagogy" is because I feel that the more successful new music scenes I've observed in the world are rooted in an absurd level of productivity, fun, social atmosphere. The Toronto scene in comparison, well, I never heard a work in five years there that I really loved, though talent was obviously on display. I intuitively feel, in observing my own tendencies, and observing the workings of other young composers, that getting caught up in the theory of what one-is-working-on is often an enormous stumbling block for finding one's natural writing voice, responding to current music

poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:43 (ten years ago) link

Just a bit of fundamentals, let's be cool

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 23:51 (ten years ago) link

Yeah, Ken, I still use MuseScore. I've used Finale (years ago) and it seems similar. Pretty great for a free program, at least for how I've used it so far.

timellison, Sunday, 6 April 2014 03:21 (ten years ago) link

Haven't used it in a while, may have some usage questions for you at some point.

Seems to me what Owen is saying is that he already has enough theory background to do what he is doing, further study at this point would only beget even more study, what he needs is practical stuff to help him execute faster and creative models to keep him inspired.

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 13:17 (ten years ago) link

Anyway, would love to continue to discuses this esoterica at further length, but have to go see what can be done with my recalcitrant right hand.

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:12 (ten years ago) link

o_O

smhphony orchestra (crüt), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:14 (ten years ago) link

Oh wait

Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:17 (ten years ago) link

OK wow @ this syllabus: https://sites.google.com/a/calarts.edu/counterpoint-mt-204/syllabus

I thought I was a hardass.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:44 (ten years ago) link

.

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:50 (ten years ago) link

He does mention Dover Publications early on, to balance out the "hideously expensive" texts.

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:52 (ten years ago) link

Although I imagine if you took that course you would save money just by not having any time to spend it.

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:53 (ten years ago) link

Ha, if you're really concerned about money, you can download those scores for free from IMSLP.

xpost lol

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:55 (ten years ago) link

No Gradus in that course? Is that considered passé?

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:30 (ten years ago) link

Tbh, I've never read it but I don't know of anyone who would use an 18th-century treatise to teach a counterpoint class in 2014. It seems more like something you'd read in a course on the history of music theory.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 02:30 (ten years ago) link

B-b-but there are some 18th century compositions recommended for study in the course.

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 11:56 (ten years ago) link

18th-century music is typically what we focus on in (tonal) counterpoint courses. However, I don't know of anyone who uses theoretical treatises that were written in the 18th century to teach about the contrapuntal techniques in this music, just as you would probably not read Newton in an undergraduate physics or calculus course. (My understanding was that Gradus is largely concerned with 16th-century counterpoint btw?) Ime, it is far more common to study 18th-century scores but to use modern texts on analysis and model composition.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:48 (ten years ago) link

I mean, as I understand it, the modern texts all probably owe a lot to Fux; not arguing that.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:53 (ten years ago) link

There's a pretty solid-looking ebook torrent atm, for those who are prone to such things.

Trespassers William (dowd), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:11 (ten years ago) link

Here is another question that you may or may not have thought about or care about or feel is within the framework of this thread. Every once in a while I've heard somebody pose the innocent question "How many scales are there?" How to answer. "Well I went through a pile of books and websites and took all those lists there and compiled them and removed them and came up with this number." ? Easy to ask hard to answer. But if you specify a little more think you can answer certain questions.

How many heptatonic (seven note) scales without any augmented seconds or chromatic cluster? 14, the seven modes of the major scale and the seven modes of the jazz melodic minor scale.
How many heptatonic (seven note) scales allowing one augmented second, no chromatic clusters? 28, The two above plus the seven modes of harmonic minor plus the seven modes of harmonic major.

How many scales built by stacking three major thirds and four minor thirds in some order? Calculation gives the number 35, but there is a degenerate case so you can throw out those 7 and your back with the same four sets of seven as above.

Of course if you relax the restrictions you get a lot more, like this guy did: http://alexanderlafollett.com/site/modes-and-theory/

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:27 (ten years ago) link

"you're back"

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:28 (ten years ago) link

If you allow two augmented seconds you get the double harmonic major and other stuff.

The degenerate case mentioned above can possibly be thought of as leading to certain hexatonic and octatonic symmetric scales- whole tone, augmented, diminished.

tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:46 (ten years ago) link

18th-century music is typically what we focus on in (tonal) counterpoint courses.

This is actually one of the reasons why the CalArts syllabus seemed so striking to me. 16th-century, 18th-century, and 20th-century counterpoint are commonly covered in three different courses. Tbh, once I realized that he doesn't seem to give any sit-down written tests, might not actually mark all of those weekly assignments, and doesn't ask for any analysis outside of the two papers, the workload doesn't seem quite as extreme.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:24 (ten years ago) link

My understanding is that you play guitar, but not piano, really, is that correct, Sund4r? When you write your counterpoint exercises - or maybe I should say "wrote" since now you assign them for others to write- do you write them on piano for piano? Other instruments? Guitar as well?

Lem E. Killdozer (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:31 (ten years ago) link

I write most of the examples/sample solutions that I use in class. Tbh, I mostly write on Sibelius for 'piano', as far as these go? (Since they're usually only played electronically, I guess I write on Sibelius for synthesized MIDI piano but write such that the material would playable?) As far as my own compositional work goes, yeah, I write for a variety of instruments.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 03:02 (ten years ago) link

Well on paper/on Sibelius.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 14:52 (ten years ago) link

You still use paper?

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 15:04 (ten years ago) link

Ha, well, yeah, I feel that Sibelius/Finale can lock me into a linear left-to-right, note-by-note way of working, when it can be more efficient to sketch out large-scale frameworks first. On tests, students do everything on paper.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 15:33 (ten years ago) link

This paper says that even the members of Lynyrd Skynyrd themselves don't agree on the key of "Sweet Home Alabama" and cites some references: http://www.academia.edu/1435121/Triadic_Modal_and_Pentatonic_Patterns_in_Rock_Music

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 15:31 (ten years ago) link

listen to the chord they end on though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA

smhphony orchestra (crüt), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:15 (ten years ago) link

Won't let me watch that YouTube. Wonder what key Merry Clayton thought it was in.

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:26 (ten years ago) link

Lots of music doesn't end on the tonic chord

Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:32 (ten years ago) link

That paper I linked seems reasonably accessible and useful, from what I have been able to read of it so far.

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 19:44 (ten years ago) link

http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5424776.htm

As for the story of Ed King playing his guitar solo in G, even though the song is in D, Kooper said, "IMHO, the song is in they key of D. Ed disagrees and says its in the key of G. We are both talking about the same finished recording. It is an opinion about an existing piece of music."

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 19:52 (ten years ago) link

I am in the "G, obv" camp on this one but am pretty startled that Nicole Biamonte apparently disagrees with me and seems to be using voice-leading as an argument.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:29 (ten years ago) link

I always enjoy the final chord of "the song remains the same," which is in D. The guitar plays an A note and the vocal rounds out an F chord.

calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 01:35 (ten years ago) link

xpost I don't even really hear the melodic descent she's talking about in that note as being particularly significant in this song. The resting chord in the progression seems to be the G; the licks seem like straightforward G pentatonic stuff and don't really make sense to me in D Mixolydian; the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G, suggesting dominant-to-tonic motion.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:37 (ten years ago) link

It's no secret that musicians aren't always good analysts of their work btw.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:41 (ten years ago) link

although actually the story I heard before was that the band thought it was in G and the producer thought it was in D

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:42 (ten years ago) link

the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G

OK, well, it doesn't always really do this and I guess that's the source of the ambiguity.

Ha, I found an old conversation from some years back where I said I could hear it in D.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:55 (ten years ago) link

@ Sund4r I am amazed that anybody could possibly hear "Sweet Home Alabama" in anything other than D-mixo and the live video posted above sounds like somebody in the band exercised veto power of stupidity. Jot down the melody or the guitar riff and they are both 100% functional D-mixo melodies that show zero-allegiance to G. I wonder what key these guys heard "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in

"got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:00 (ten years ago) link

although actually the story I heard before was that the band thought it was in G and the producer thought it was in D

That's what it says on that blues harmonica board post I linked.

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:04 (ten years ago) link

the guitar riff

Isn't this D5 (arpeggiated) - C5 (arpeggiated) - octaves on G - A-B-D-E-D-B-G?

That last lick seems like a really obvious G pentatonic line to me. I don't see how you could see zero allegiance to G. The vocal melody is what complicates things.

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:11 (ten years ago) link

(I was with you on Daft Punk btw.)

EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:13 (ten years ago) link

I am in the "G, obv" camp on this one but am pretty startled that Nicole Biamonte apparently disagrees with me and seems to be using voice-leading as an argument.

Perhaps you can have this settled by the Academic Arbitration Board of Canada.

When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:24 (ten years ago) link


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