Sorry, I actually felt bad about real name usage but have trouble remembering your screenname and hard to see on iPhone through zing touch.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:19 (ten years ago) link
What about the Birmingham "boo boo boo" line - F and C there. Not making it easier to classify the song as either in G or D though.
― calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 06:31 (ten years ago) link
Got home finally and was able to relisten to "Sweet Home Alabama" AND: on the first chorus-first stanza there's an explosive C! chord there leading back to D, but more importantly is the secondary plagal cadence F-C-D (guitar line A-G-F#!) into the guitar solo which so decisively and obviously establishes D as the primary key centre-- this is your "boo boo boo", too, but F-E-D in the vocals--
But yeah, that second guitar solo is so clearly performed by somebody who is feeling G as the key centre that yeah my ears are confused, but at least the first guitarist and pianist are in accord
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:56 (ten years ago) link
Also there's no A chord in the song - another bit of evidence for G
― calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 11:47 (ten years ago) link
that second guitar solo is so clearly performed by somebody who is feeling G as the key centre
So I still don't think that it is a black/white, right/wrong situation. Even 'that girl' (who chairs the music theory area at what might be the country's top music school and edits theory journals) refers to it as an "ambiguous". I think there are elements that suggest a D centre and elements that suggest a G centre. In fact, the ambiguity is part of what makes the song interesting. When I said that musicians aren't always good analysts of their own work, I meant that they're not always good at describing or explaining it. I don't think you can really say, however, that the lead guitarist was wrong here or that the band was wrong in how they ended the song live. (I really don't think they were going for a cliffhanger 'half cadence' ending there.)
The vocal melody does point to D as a centre. However, I don't really agree that the riff in itself clearly suggests a different tonal centre than the "Werewolves of London" riff, even with a D suspended over the C. (It's not like most modern artists follow CPP voice-leading principles.) I think a lot of the lead guitar licks throughout the song are based on a G maj pentatonic scale. If I make an effort, I can hear it Hurting 2's way but my intuitive response to the guitars is to hear G as the resting place. The way the vocal line pulls away from this (imo) creates a kind of tension that makes this song interesting to me. It's a duck/rabbit thing: I don't think either view is wrong.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 13:38 (ten years ago) link
I was not aware of Walter Everett's classifications but note that girl is referring to all the same examples I referred to off the top of my head upthread (Phrygian + "Army Of Me", Lydian + "Pretty Ballerina")
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 13:50 (ten years ago) link
In conclusion, Skynyrd = Bartok.
Yell at me to go mark some exams if you see me on here again today.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 14:08 (ten years ago) link
I think the fact that they end this song in G on that live recording with a big G-establishing "yeaaaahhhhhhH!!!!!" says more about band dynamics than it does about the song's tonal centre.
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 16:59 (ten years ago) link
Amazing thread
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 18 April 2014 17:18 (ten years ago) link
flam otm
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 17:19 (ten years ago) link
I think it's more that they end it in an unusual place. You're not used to hearing G occur at bar one (if you're counting it as four bars). Bar three, where it usually occurs, is a weaker place to end it, but there's a live Zevon youtube video where he ends "Werewolves" there.
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:37 (ten years ago) link
(Or sorry flam, not that it's "more" about that, but that it's ALSO about that.)
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:53 (ten years ago) link
Isn't this D5 (arpeggiated) - C5 (arpeggiated) - octaves on G - A-B-D-E-D-B-G?
That last lick seems like a really obvious G pentatonic line to me.
By starting on A, I hear it as an anticipation of the D chord.
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:23 (ten years ago) link
big wheels keep on turning
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Friday, 18 April 2014 20:40 (ten years ago) link
Believe I just heard a Phrygian tune, although a bit older than what was cited above.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 21:59 (ten years ago) link
Although there is a more modern tune with the same melody.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 22:10 (ten years ago) link
Assuming that the drummer was playing a standard backbeat with a snare hit on 2 and 4, I really think SHA should be counted as 2 beats of D, 2 of C, and 1 bar of G. This is also in keeping with the count-in on the recording. Only saying this to explain where I'm coming from with my bar/beat references:
It really seems like an accented passing note to me. A is a 16th note between two members of the G triad. (There's actually a G on the previous 16th note, the "a" of 2.) Every other accented pitch in that bar is a member of the G major triad. I don't see a suggestion that A has a stronger function in that bar.
What does it say? I looked at two other live clips from the 70s, both of which ended the same way. Why did they choose that chord?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:05 (ten years ago) link
To piss off Al Kooper?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:08 (ten years ago) link
And Hurting and flam?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:09 (ten years ago) link
Phrygian tune was "O Sacred Heart Surrounded" aka "O Sacred Heart Now Wounded." Modern reuse of melody is Paul Simon's "American Tune."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:12 (ten years ago) link
At this point I think I understand the arguments for D-Mixolydian and will cede that the original D-Mixolydian crowd has much better ears than I do (no sarcasm intended). But I think I agree with what Sund4r is trying to say, it is kind of ambiguous on some level. The circular chord progression is coming from inside the thread!
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:21 (ten years ago) link
It's much easier to hear, say, "Taxman," as in D because, for one thing, it stays on D for so long, and for another, the C and G come in a place where structurally one would expect a turnaround.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:35 (ten years ago) link
In any case, apparently you can't be a real music board without having a thread about this topic, it's some kind of law of the internet. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=407446&highlight=sweet+home+alabama
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:43 (ten years ago) link
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Lynyrd-Skynyrds-Ed-King-913.aspx
No, that was the only solo I ever saw in a dream. And I saw both of ’em. And I pretty much play them note for note, even today, except one part I change. But I remember when I recorded that in Atlanta, like we recorded that song four days after we wrote it. And we were thinking about putting it on the first album because our first album wasn't even out yet, but Al Kooper wanted to save it for the second album. But Kooper argued with me the whole time I was there, saying "You're playing the solo in the wrong key." Because it starts on a D chord but it really resolves in G. It's really in the key of G. And he says "The solo should be in D." And he, unbeknownst to me, was telling the rest of the guys, "Look, we can't have this guy do the solo on the record."
You should also google Al Kooper's version in his memoir.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:53 (ten years ago) link
In any case we've come a long way from when we argued over the modality of "Greensleeves." Or have we.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:16 (ten years ago) link
Forgot that I heard really old Phrygian tune the night before- "Pange Lingua."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 02:04 (ten years ago) link
From "Surviving Ellington" in Francis Davis's Jazz And Its Discontents
...he was musically self-taught with an autodidact's scorn for formal education. Yet he saw to it that Mercer studied music at Juilliard, Columbia, and New York University. “I think it was his way of keeping up with advancements in music theory through me," Mercer speculates. "I remember one day he handed me two huge volumes and said 'Read these and tell me about them.' It was the Schillinger system and it took me three years to digest it. When I started to explain it to him, he cut me off. 'Oh, yeah, I was doing that back in 1928.' And truthfully, he had."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 13:34 (ten years ago) link
.he was musically self-taught
If this is about Duke Ellington, I'm pretty sure this is false. Grove, Starr/Waterman, and this page from GWU all say that he received formal training on piano from approx the age of 7. The latter page also states that he took private lessons in harmony.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:44 (ten years ago) link
Was wondering about that. Assumed it was a bit of an exaggeration. Basically read it as " did not attend conservatory." It's kind of the flip side of "classically trained" meaning "took one lesson from a Russian lady."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:55 (ten years ago) link
But those private lessons he took were from a high school music teacher, not one of those tenure track positions you mentioned on the other thread.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:59 (ten years ago) link
On one of those old Phrygian tunes there is some discussion of the melody being clearly Phrygian but was it also harmonized in a Phrygian arrangement. Was hoping flam could elucidate. (Also if you don't like the name flam, we can try something different. )
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 17:17 (ten years ago) link
I don't really know what you're asking? "O Sacred Heart Now Wounded" is not Phrygian. Paul Simon doesn't Phryg it, he stays pretty faithful, even keeps Bach's delicious cadence to VI. A quick scan through alternate versions on Youtube shows some people who rest on the vi, but no massive re-interpretations.
http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/O_Haupt_voll_Blut/O_Haupt_voll_Blut-a4.pdf
I don't know "Pange Lingua"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:24 (ten years ago) link
Hm. Version I was looking at had no accidentals and started and ended on the note E.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:30 (ten years ago) link
I guess Bach harmonized it tonally and that's the version we know and love now. Wonder how it got played in the first twelve decades of its existence.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (ten years ago) link
Here's the same hymn respelled in C http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/O_Sacred_Head_Now_Wounded/pdf/
Melody does start and end on E, but Bach never harmonized that E as being the tonic. If you were to re-harmonize the melody you could make a Phrygian cadence on that third line (d-e), but not the last one, as far as I can tell-- it's been 15+ years since I did chorale and looking at this hymn again is amazing, Bach the Genius
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (ten years ago) link
Hmmmm. I googled ways of resolving Phrygian-mode melodies and just realized there's an ambiguity in my last post, "Phrygian cadence" can refer to a IV6-V movement in chorale, despite having little to do with actual Phrygian mode aside from a similar harmonic colour
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:44 (ten years ago) link
To be precise, a Phrygian cadence is a half-cadence from iv[6]-V in a minor key (commonly with the soprano voice moving from ^4-^5, although this is not a necessity). The name comes because the bass motion (as well as the soprano motion if you have the ^4-^5 line) recalls melodic movement at a cadence in the Phrygian mode in Renaissance counterpoint.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:50 (ten years ago) link
I mean, you have to see ^5 as the final of the Phrygian mode.
A popular theory is that Bach chorales modulate so often because Bach was trying to harmonize modal hymn melodies with 18th-century functional harmony.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:51 (ten years ago) link
Fascinating, look at the original Cruger harmonization, which originated many of Bach's moves, has a neat little bVII move that Bach'd remove but imply with a I7. See too the conclusion
http://www.kantoreiarchiv.de/archiv/a_cappella/motets/crueger/o_haupt/o_haupt_voll.pdf
Note too that the melody's penultimate note doesn't jump up to G in this version, this could totally be harmonized Phrygian-style
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:04 (ten years ago) link
THE STUNNING CONCLUSION
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:05 (ten years ago) link
a funny aside: I just received texts from P4trick St1ckles right now with photos of his guitar parts. He writes his riffs down pricksong style. "Imagine the last D major chord as the sort of arpeggio you would hear if you beat the End Boss in the castle dungeon. Obvi when the dots meet and spar it is Aeolian vs. Phrygian hot licks throwdown"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:09 (ten years ago) link
Wait were prick-songs written in neumes or something else?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:33 (ten years ago) link
Those texts remind me of some guitar blog I came across the other day in which the guy said "as the Dark Lord loving shredder that you are you should be thoroughly familiar with the harmonic minor by now."
Thinking of starting Richard Taruskin's magnum opus Oxford History of Western Music soon.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link
Guess neumes were out of fashion by then.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:46 (ten years ago) link
Meanwhile leafing through ancient copy of Donald Jay Grout I just found on the shelf.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:06 (ten years ago) link
He Poos "Cloudbank."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:20 (ten years ago) link
http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/01/15/histories-of-western-music-from-grout-to-kleinzahler/
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
Your Easter Sunday homework is to report on which mode this is in:http://images.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/I/big/HL70394a.jpg
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 April 2014 03:06 (ten years ago) link
crucifixolydian
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Sunday, 20 April 2014 05:17 (ten years ago) link
Just heard SHA on car radio and saw the light. Now how about you?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link