But those private lessons he took were from a high school music teacher, not one of those tenure track positions you mentioned on the other thread.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:59 (ten years ago) link
On one of those old Phrygian tunes there is some discussion of the melody being clearly Phrygian but was it also harmonized in a Phrygian arrangement. Was hoping flam could elucidate. (Also if you don't like the name flam, we can try something different. )
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 17:17 (ten years ago) link
I don't really know what you're asking? "O Sacred Heart Now Wounded" is not Phrygian. Paul Simon doesn't Phryg it, he stays pretty faithful, even keeps Bach's delicious cadence to VI. A quick scan through alternate versions on Youtube shows some people who rest on the vi, but no massive re-interpretations.
http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/O_Haupt_voll_Blut/O_Haupt_voll_Blut-a4.pdf
I don't know "Pange Lingua"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:24 (ten years ago) link
Hm. Version I was looking at had no accidentals and started and ended on the note E.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:30 (ten years ago) link
I guess Bach harmonized it tonally and that's the version we know and love now. Wonder how it got played in the first twelve decades of its existence.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (ten years ago) link
Here's the same hymn respelled in C http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/O_Sacred_Head_Now_Wounded/pdf/
Melody does start and end on E, but Bach never harmonized that E as being the tonic. If you were to re-harmonize the melody you could make a Phrygian cadence on that third line (d-e), but not the last one, as far as I can tell-- it's been 15+ years since I did chorale and looking at this hymn again is amazing, Bach the Genius
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (ten years ago) link
Hmmmm. I googled ways of resolving Phrygian-mode melodies and just realized there's an ambiguity in my last post, "Phrygian cadence" can refer to a IV6-V movement in chorale, despite having little to do with actual Phrygian mode aside from a similar harmonic colour
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:44 (ten years ago) link
To be precise, a Phrygian cadence is a half-cadence from iv[6]-V in a minor key (commonly with the soprano voice moving from ^4-^5, although this is not a necessity). The name comes because the bass motion (as well as the soprano motion if you have the ^4-^5 line) recalls melodic movement at a cadence in the Phrygian mode in Renaissance counterpoint.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:50 (ten years ago) link
I mean, you have to see ^5 as the final of the Phrygian mode.
A popular theory is that Bach chorales modulate so often because Bach was trying to harmonize modal hymn melodies with 18th-century functional harmony.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:51 (ten years ago) link
Fascinating, look at the original Cruger harmonization, which originated many of Bach's moves, has a neat little bVII move that Bach'd remove but imply with a I7. See too the conclusion
http://www.kantoreiarchiv.de/archiv/a_cappella/motets/crueger/o_haupt/o_haupt_voll.pdf
Note too that the melody's penultimate note doesn't jump up to G in this version, this could totally be harmonized Phrygian-style
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:04 (ten years ago) link
THE STUNNING CONCLUSION
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:05 (ten years ago) link
a funny aside: I just received texts from P4trick St1ckles right now with photos of his guitar parts. He writes his riffs down pricksong style. "Imagine the last D major chord as the sort of arpeggio you would hear if you beat the End Boss in the castle dungeon. Obvi when the dots meet and spar it is Aeolian vs. Phrygian hot licks throwdown"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:09 (ten years ago) link
Wait were prick-songs written in neumes or something else?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:33 (ten years ago) link
Those texts remind me of some guitar blog I came across the other day in which the guy said "as the Dark Lord loving shredder that you are you should be thoroughly familiar with the harmonic minor by now."
Thinking of starting Richard Taruskin's magnum opus Oxford History of Western Music soon.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:39 (ten years ago) link
Guess neumes were out of fashion by then.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:46 (ten years ago) link
Meanwhile leafing through ancient copy of Donald Jay Grout I just found on the shelf.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:06 (ten years ago) link
He Poos "Cloudbank."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:20 (ten years ago) link
http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/01/15/histories-of-western-music-from-grout-to-kleinzahler/
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:22 (ten years ago) link
Your Easter Sunday homework is to report on which mode this is in:http://images.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/I/big/HL70394a.jpg
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 April 2014 03:06 (ten years ago) link
crucifixolydian
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Sunday, 20 April 2014 05:17 (ten years ago) link
Just heard SHA on car radio and saw the light. Now how about you?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 16:26 (ten years ago) link
Does that mean that you strongly feel that it is in D now?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 16:42 (ten years ago) link
Not quite. Just messing really. Although there was a guy on the thread on the other borad I linked who played in Grateful Dead spinoff bands name Steve Kimock or something who had a pretty well-reasoned argument for D, in which he asked the musical question: "Instead of asking what key is the song in, I ask what key am I in?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 18:31 (ten years ago) link
And I quote
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 18:32 (ten years ago) link
Still much easier for me to detect Mixolydian when they unequivocally hit you over the head with it, as in "Mama Told Me Not To Come" or certain James Brown grooves such as, I think, "I Can't Stand Myself (When You Touch Me)"
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:09 (ten years ago) link
Meanwhile got the first two volumes of Taruskin's Oxford History of Western Music. Will report back with any questions.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:21 (ten years ago) link
Lots of CCR songs are Mixolydian too, I think. There are certain swampy funky grooves it works well with.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:35 (ten years ago) link
Hear it much more clearly on "Fortunate Son," for example, than on SHA.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:53 (ten years ago) link
Face it, Mixolydian scale sounds more bluesy and Major scale is more country so...
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:58 (ten years ago) link
Plus the solo came to the guy in a dream!
"Sweet Child o' Mine" is my go-to rock example for the Mixolydian mode.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:19 (ten years ago) link
(The intro and verses anyway. You actually get a V chord in the chorus.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:21 (ten years ago) link
tbh pentatonic major probably signifies stereotypical old-time Country than full-on Ionian. Tons of exceptions no doubt.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:34 (ten years ago) link
depends on what country song you're talking about. folk songs, parlor music, blues, swing, boogie-woogie, and other idioms all fed into country/hillbilly music and they all had different melodic inflections. i dunno if it's practical to speak about country music in the first half of the 20th century in modal terms.
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:00 (ten years ago) link
Though if someone wants to do an indepth analysis of this song I'd love to hear it just because I like this song & I'm bored & not near a piano at the moment. I know there's a raised fourth right outta the gate. Also I like that there's a picture of a CD-R containing only this song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsn6P4SDLLg
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:07 (ten years ago) link
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:14 (ten years ago) link
Country music considered chronologically was a much bigger tent then some might realize, as I learned when I recently read Creating Country Music: Manufacturing Authenticity, which I never tire of flacking. Do you know that book, crüt?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:46 (ten years ago) link
The Floyd Tillman song sounds, analytically, straightforward to my ears, crüt. The auxiliary raised-fourth (in this case coupled with a raised-second) is such common example of chromaticism that I'm sure there's a name for it, see the famous Beethoven minuet. All the stanky details in this recording are the product of the individual players all imposing their own varying degrees of chromatic inflection, the dissonance created by the slide guitar moving step-wise upward from IV to V is pretty intense. There's gotta be a name for this kind of stuff in country music. Love the add6 on the last chord
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, 21 April 2014 22:20 (ten years ago) link
Flam's last post has reminded of the original reason for the recent revive as well as helping me address some actual musical confusion I've been dealing with recently. Will post more later hopefully, right now need to answer Sund4r on the other thread plus I am watching Hairspray, which may figure in as well.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 02:37 (ten years ago) link
Specific thing: Certain Northeastern Brazilian styles such as the baião are known for using the Lydian mode. Two things. One: cheap, poor man's way to get a Lydian sound is to just play major triad shape and then move it up a whole step and play it again. Second thing: it's not really Lydian. How is it not? First way it is not quite Lydian is that it is Lydian Dominant. Second way is more confusing. In fact I heard some kind of explanation that somebody either heard it wrong or Luiz Gonzaga played the sharp four by accident(!) or his instrument was out of tune or busted. But...
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:21 (ten years ago) link
Flam's discussion of different people bringing their own approach to chromatic made me think more about what the heck was going on in the baião. A little judicious googling came up with the idea that the mode is not just Lydian Dominant, it is a combination of Lydian Dominant, Mixolydian, and Dorian, some kind of synthetic, über mode. In fact, there was a piece I had been trying to play that was exactly that and it was driving me crazy. Note that the way it worked it wasn't that the extra notes were used as passing tones, just that in different sections or different bars or different half-measures the fourth goes back and forth from sharp to natural or the third goes back and fourth from major to minor.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:29 (ten years ago) link
Maybe if I had fleeter fingers or a better ear or a satisfied mind I would have just accepted these flipping thirds and fourths and moved on, but I couldn't and it was really affecting my ability to memorize the piece. Also, felt like in some sense it was my punishment, if you will, for too much time playing in the lower positions and not shifting, and liking to be in one 'macroharmony,' as it were, for a longer period than is allotted at faster tempos or with more busy chord changes. On the other hand, if I had been born into the style, I wouldn't have to ask questions I would just know, but unfortunately I don't have that luxury. But now I have a name, 'escala nordestina' which is enough for now. At this stage I don't need some kind of Euclidean axiom proof of something ('alpha' theory) just a name to tag it with and a pigeonhole to put it in ('beta' theory)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:40 (ten years ago) link
Back to the general theme of the revive. In jazz, you are frequently given a set of chord changes and asked to improvise over them. You can play the chord tones on the appropriate beats but then what scale tones (assuming you've chosen an appropriate scale) or chromatic tones do you play in between? There is some balance to be struck between playing scalar and playing chromatically. Too scalar and it might be boring, too chromatic and it ends up sounding like what one Berklee instructor (Bob Pilkington?) calls "the drunken line."
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:53 (ten years ago) link
As far as the scales you choose you can get a lot of mileage out of the more neutral scales, especially if you are playing bass:) If you want to get beyond and use some slightly more exotic scales then maybe you've got to do more work. The reason Hurting (no real names on the theory thread when screennames are available) disapproves of a certain kind of paint-by-numbers pick-a-scale-any-scale approach is that presumably the players aren't really listening to the others in the ensemble or even to themselves.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:02 (ten years ago) link
( running out of road. See what the subconscious mind sorts out overnight )
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:09 (ten years ago) link
(Tom, delete the Rolling Music Theory Thread now please)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:36 (ten years ago) link
(One man's scale choice is another man's chromaticism)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:48 (ten years ago) link
lolbaião please
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 09:32 (ten years ago) link
Haven't caught up with recent posts but I kind of wish I were going to this:http://www.mtmw.org/docs/MTMW_program_2014.pdf
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 22:51 (ten years ago) link
I wish you were too.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 23:11 (ten years ago) link