Why do non-guitarists insist on having 'creative input' in bands?

Or if they say "this is how the melody and the chords go, I want this sort of a feel, but really, play what you like" then that is fine too.

But the majority of the idiots that I auditioned for were total control freaks who were unable to write a bassline or an arrangement themselves, yet were as unable to relinquish control as they were unable to communicate what they wanted, and expected mind-reading to have been learned along with scales. Tell me what to play, or let me play what I want. Don't just fucking faff about waiting for some mysterious "atmosphere" to be right.

Personally, I would have be working with Brian fucking Wilson in order to put up with the "here is your sheet music" school of session work these days. If I had a dime for every idiot guitarist who thought they knew how to write a bassline cause "like, basses are just guitars minus two strings, right?" then I could hire my own guitarkestra.

My take on musical control = if you have good enough and sensitive enough players, then leave it to the person whose job it is to play that instrument to know how to play that instrument best. Singers shouldn't tell drummers how to drum, and drummers shouldn't tell singers how to sing. Everybody should do what they do best, and have control over their own area.

And no. I can't play drums to save my life. Ollie Channel 6 actually asked me to play drums for them, and after two songs, he turned around and said "You're right! You ARE the worst drummer ever!"

I only know a couple of other drummers - one of them is MINE and we love him so much you can't have him. And the other is my 'orrible ex and I wouldn't wish him on anyone.

Another motherfuckin' cat with a Fender Strat. That's just what the world needs.

I think it's about time cloning became an option for musos...y'know, you can't find a bassist who will properly cooperate, well hell just clone yourself and put You#2 on bass, YOU know how the basslines should go.

Essentially, if you know what you want and are willing to coherently explain it, I greatly prefer to play what you want to hear, it's your music after all. If I wanted the creative input I'd learn how to write songs as opposed to simply playing lots of instruments.

How do you explain to a drummer how to drum? Is there the drummers equivalent of a tab that can be used?

but hopefully a domineering asshole who isn't writing good shit will be out of a band right?

And it sucks when Phil writes a bad song, and no one will say that it's bad because, "well, we've got five songs by Bob and only three songs by Phil and we need to alternate."

Hmmmm. I used to categorize musical collaborations as either Lennon/McCartney or Simon/Garfunkel. In a Lennon/McCartney, one person is more talented and the other more extroverted. In a Simon/Garfunkel, one person is both more talented AND more extroverted.

A year ago, I wanted to be Garfunkel to someone's Simon. I wanted to find a situation where I could just concentrate on helping to realize somebody else's creative vision, and it didn't matter whether I played drums, bass, or guitar.

My attitude has changed somewhat since getting involved with my current band. There was a sort of vacuum in terms of creative drive, and so I felt like I should step in and write some material and get out front and all. I guess I think there's more of a place for productive collaboration, and it's not just individual geniuses running round making good records in spite of their bandmembers.

fascinating. i was once that songwriter. gave it up to go away and be a bedroom twiddling control freak because to this day i am shit at getting other people to do what i want them to do. if i was working with me back then i would have hated me too. over-preciousness around music and musicians just totally strangles it.

many years down the line and i'm in a studio with a top session gun (drummer) - i'm producer and writer and fall straight back into my 'ooh try it like this' bullshit. he tried really hard with my idea but i twigged that it was shit very quickly - then he kind of zenned out, just sort of vanished into 'the zone' and just exploded all over the track. without doubt one of the most exciting sessions i'd ever been in.

if you are picking top talent to work with then they're gonna come in with the goods you just have to trust it. it's also critical where you go on publishing splits. if every member of the band is getting cut in on mechanicals at some level it ups the trust and removes a fair bit of the creative angst between 'the poor put-upon band' and the twatty songwriter. i hate greediness, especially at the expense of great music.

Haha can you go tell this to Kenny G? Please???

our drummer does probably more in terms of "arranging" than any of us.'

if someone talked to me like that i'd tell them to fuck off.

songwriting is not song craft. two different things.

NB this is why I have to write my own shit solo or be in a completely improvisational noise band.

Pretty much any riff-rock (AC/DC, Black Sabbath, etc.), no matter how great the riffs, falls flat without an absolutely killer rhythm section.

-- Hurting (Hurtingchie...), October 2nd, 2005

This is really true, by the way. We worked with a new bass player tonight and I basically had to "translate" all the songs into musicalese for him.

what i'm saying is, those things are really basic. a good musician, wther drum, bass, keys, or guitar has a good ear and sense of taste - what works with what. in that sense, i would say that the bar for a good drummer or bassist is similar to that of being a good guitarist. no one wants to hear just bar chords or open E, and no one wants to hear straight kick-snare metronomically either.

"just"

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:KFssNYgKnuwRqM:therave.com/gallery/085726.jpg

nabisco not otm.

four years later this is still so true. there's just that one particular 'collaborator' who thinks that questioning every aspect of a song = being productive

How do you explain to a drummer how to drum?

My drummer is pretty phenomenal once you get him going on a beat, but I write a lot of stuff with weird African/Latin rhythms, so I end up spending about 10 minutes of each band practice beatboxing rhythms at him. I mean, you don't even have to be a good beatboxer to show someone that it goes BOOM dah BOOM KAH BOOM dah BOOM KAH.