The logic of the setlist

I think it's possible to go too far with variety - you want to leave the audience with the feeling that they've heard a band with a defined sound, and it's possible to bore the audience with surprise (sort of the way a bad action movie keeps throwing new twists and stunts at you until you want to fall asleep).

One of my favorite setlists is the slow burn, i.e. starting very quiet or mellow and gradually building intensity - but it has to be the right audience/space for it. Also you can't build intensity consistently throughout the set, you have to do it for 3-5 songs and then maybe bring it down a little before building again.

Obviously one of the most important things is a great closer, and maybe one that stands out a bit from the rest of the set, since that's what the audience will most likely remember.

A good opener is more important if you're in a situation where you have to win the audience over right away/prevent them from leaving. If you're the first band up, chances are not many people are there yet and you want to leave your more impressive material for later in the set.

Yeah, good points. I'm not that worried about going too far with variety, though - I think that what I see as different feels among my songs probably still doesn't sound all that varied to someone else.

And I've definitely regretted playing killer songs at the beginning of the set when no one is there.

"With two pacy numbers we'll open the show/ Then slow it all down with the one about that bird"
Fretwork Homework - HMHB

Whatsever you play, the Iron Law of Setlists dictates that the physical, written copy of the setlist have at least one song title represented by a single word and at least one song title represented by the initials of the words comprising it. For the latter, see Spinal Tap, "GSM."

you want to leave the audience with the feeling that they've heard a band with a defined sound

Thing is, I get the feeling people are so used to hearing recordings with sonic/production shifts between songs that almost anything you stand there and play will feel like a "defined sound." I mean, I'd worry about breaking up moods -- you don't want to be all "now DANCE, now CRY, now DANCE again, quick" -- but I have to admit, my experience of lots of non-headlining bands is such that I'd prefer more hopping around. (Usually because lots of acts don't write a wide variety of songs at all, so you wait out a song's end only to be crushed when pretty much the same song just starts again.)

xpost example:

http://www.worldinmotion.net/neworder/informations/setlist/manc130702.jpg

Every time I get hungry
I get some bread and I make myself a BLT
That's the way that it goes when I slice up tomatoes
Where I get such yummy bacon only the lord knows
I use lots of mayonnaise
I keep the lettuce in the crisper so it's crisp for days
Put them all on some bread and chew them up in my head
Now I'm not hungry, I am full instead

Every time I get real hungry, I
Make myself a BLT
Veggies fresh and bacon crisp and
Tastes so very good to me

I'm all about the variety, especially in sound textures -- poor Martin is always switching between guitar and trumpet between songs.

But yes, always start with two uptempo songs.

Somewhere around 1/3 of the way through your set might not be a bad place to put a cover, if the audience doesn't know you.

Starting with an uptempo song and then following with an even more uptempo song can be a good formula, but there's really no rule and it depends on the kind of band you are, the kind of night it is, and what else you have in your set. For example if you only have two really strong uptempo songs it's a BIG mistake to put them as #1 and 2.

I sang nabisco's BLT lyrics to myself all day yesterday. The funniest thing since my friend's brother put lyrics to "Walk, Don't Run."

We start off with a couple of snappy poppy songs, midtempo stuff in the middle, balls-out rocking for the last three-four songs. We also have two singers, so have to pay attention to who's singing what when. We don't go for strict back and forth between the songs I sing and the songs sarah sings, but try not to get more than 3 in a row with one person singing.

Things we take into account :

1. Is it our audience or someone else's? If the latter, we might want to put a couple of higher-impact songs at the start to make sure we grab their attention. If the former, a slower build up to the big songs is OK.

2. If possible, keep songs in the same key apart.

3. What guitar am I using? Try and minimize guitar changes to one or two.

4. Have an epic wig-out for the last song.

it's sweet that new order still referred to "your silent face" as "KW1" as recently as 2002. or is that just because they couldn't remember what it was called?

4. Have an epic wig-out for the last song.

in my less-than-impressive performance history (a grand total of three gigs between 1993 and 1999 - one of which, however, was a full house) that was certainly the rule to which we adhered. 66.6% of the time.

the rest of the setlist was defined by "how many songs do we have?" and "what tuning is my guitar in at any particular time?"

Tuning is important - factoring in tuning changes helps avoid long awkward pauses that kill set energy.

what you mean checking yr tuning is OK , or switching to alternate tuning?

I think they mean making sure your guitar is sufficiently out of tune, otherwise it's not rock 'n' roll dudes

Sorry, alternate tunings - but one of my bands has songs in several different tunings - I guess that's not as much of an issue for most bands.

I avoid alternate tunings. I never felt like they had all that much to offer me. But I suppose that's another thread.

I occasionally use open G tuning onstage, but I would always take another guitar for that rather than mess around re-tuning.

We should have another thread about alternate tunings. I think they do have something to offer if used sparingly - I've messed around with F#F#F#F#EB and CG#CG#CG# recently - they're kind of interesting for sonic youthy type things.

No Fratelli's set list, no credibility.

We've actually had great responses when we save our epic wig-out for the 2nd to last song, and then end with a short, tight number.

Also we've managed to work it out recently where I played a big drawn out ambient outro to a song near the middle of our set while our guitarists tuned. We only have a couple songs where it takes me a noticeable amount of time to dial up a new set of keyboard sounds, so we try to have intros to those parts or maybe use those moments to like tell the audience who we are or point them at the merch table or something. Whatever. I feel like it's in everyone's best interest to keep the silences between songs to a minimum.